What's new

Improved Chinese Stealth Fighter Nears First Flight

Too soon to comment regarding the J-20 capabilities. However, it is a step in right direction. Sooner or later it will be developed enough to give headaches to enemy air force.
 
.
Plus...Considering the fact that we fielded the world's first 'stealth' aircraft, what are the odds that by now we know how to defeat 'stealth'?

And what are the 'odds' China will have moved on to the Darksword air-to-air UCAV while the US remains stuck with the overpriced and underperforming F-35 a decade from now?

pWw9W.jpg
 
.
You made me spit my drink out.....wow.

Why anyone would respond to obvious trolling is beyond me.

My points are supported by factors as links provided by Shutter @ #71, you'd better go and spit on those professionals and officer from Pentagon.

Any way, you have no any contribution to this topic except a few drops of saliva from your oral cavity.

So you are the honor graduate from e-trolling school, congratulations!


======================

Understanding this for engineer had no enough computing power to support their test in 1960's.
sr-71_radar_range_test.jpg



Laughing at this stupidity for now is 21 century and no technology improvement in progress .
f-35_rcs_range.jpg

(The support pillar is really nicer compared with the pole used in 1960's)

Oh, sorry about above understanding and laughing, forgot US did not have fast enough super computer to simulate them in a declined aviation industrial environment.
 
Last edited:
.
first I can't control what other say, especially since my understanding of physics sucks. I'm not a great math person. Not my field.

But I do agree at this point or most likely any point until actual war, it's hard if not impossible to tell how good a stealth fighter is. But US does have F-22 in Japan, do you guys fly it near Japan? So maybe we got a first hand test of how stealthy it is with our radars. Or maybe you guys only fly it when we don't have any ships around the flight path.

If my understanding is correct, stealth is derived from how a radar works. So as long as someone understand how a radar works, in theory he should know how to avoid it. In practice of course only the most innovative people can, so Western training is more of a opening up to what the world thinks in terms of said field. Not necessarily have to be in for stealth class.




Well, whether I'm informed or not doesn't really change how good or bad J-20 is going to be is it, lol. But why would China not know about these tests and more? Not our first fighter to be sure.

But yea as long as a radar is used to test it is fine, unless the US's got some super secret radar in the works.

Don't expect F-22 will engage in any real world. It did not and will not protect US interest anytime, anywhere.

It's a spider web protector only.
 
. .
And what are the 'odds' China will have moved on to the Darksword air-to-air UCAV while the US remains stuck with the overpriced and underperforming F-35 a decade from now?
The odds would be better than 50/50 that the 'underperforming' F-35 would be able to detect the Chinese flying 'stealth' junk and shoot it down with ease.

I guess when I said the US defeated 'stealth' by way of superior radar technology must have gone whoooosh over your head. If we can detect your 'stealth' aircraft, it does not matter if that aircraft have lower RCS than ours.

Do you understand now?
 
.
first I can't control what other say, especially since my understanding of physics sucks. I'm not a great math person. Not my field.

But I do agree at this point or most likely any point until actual war, it's hard if not impossible to tell how good a stealth fighter is. But US does have F-22 in Japan, do you guys fly it near Japan? So maybe we got a first hand test of how stealthy it is with our radars. Or maybe you guys only fly it when we don't have any ships around the flight path.
Or may be we did fly it and your ships' radars could not detect it.

If my understanding is correct, stealth is derived from how a radar works.
True.

So as long as someone understand how a radar works, in theory he should know how to avoid it.
In theory...

But here is something that your friends do not understand: Being low radar observable does not excuse you from avoiding radars.

Nothing -- NOTHING -- is 'invisible' to radar. You may be shocked to read me saying that. But that is the truth. Being low observable just mean you have far less of a chance of being interpreted for what you are -- a body -- while you are inside the radar beam. That mean if you do not want to be recognized, no matter how little that chance may be, then do not be inside the radar beam at all. If you can map your ingress route around the radars of an air defense net, fly it. If you need extra fuel, get it. If you need extra time, plan for it. I said this in the past and your fellow Chinese thought it was the most hilarious thing, never mind that in the eyes of those whose the military is a life, it is your friends who are the laughing stock.

In practice of course only the most innovative people can, so Western training is more of a opening up to what the world thinks in terms of said field. Not necessarily have to be in for stealth class.
Then the Chinese members here should wise up, STFU, and realize that they are entering a field where the leader -- US -- have at least 30 yrs of lead time, not counting the US have a far more established aviation industry and life. How many private pilots in China are there?

China Lifts Restrictions on Private Pilot Licenses | Flying Magazine
...the Chinese military restricted private flying to 20 percent of the country's airspace (compared with 85 percent of U.S. airspace that is available to civil aviation),...
Geographically speaking, the US and China are quite similar, and yet look at the difference between US and China for the private aviation community. Companion to this community is the many other technical ones that produces hardware and people to support the aviation community. Bottom line is we know far far more about aviation than China does, in and out of the military.

Well, whether I'm informed or not doesn't really change how good or bad J-20 is going to be is it, lol. But why would China not know about these tests and more? Not our first fighter to be sure.
The Chinese government is not going to publish any hard data from the J-20. Sure, a set of highly technical lies could be in place, but it would be naive to think that the other aviation powers are going to accept that.

But yea as long as a radar is used to test it is fine, unless the US's got some super secret radar in the works.
We ALWAYS do...
 
.
@gambit I had a query which may sound like a noob to you. But, bear with me. While reading on the Kopp site, I found this statement....

The Russian approach has been to invest in the further development of low band radars, especially operating in the VHF band. With wavelengths of the order of a metre or more, only very large stealth aircraft (e.g. B-2A) satisfy the physics requirement for geometrical optics regime scattering. A fighter sized aircraft such as the JSF will see most of its carefully designed shaping features fall into the resonance or Raleigh scattering regions, where shaping is of little or no import, and skin depth penetration of the induced electrical surface currents defeats most absorbent coatings or laminates.

and

Where fighters with high power aperture X-band radars are available, such as Irbis-E or Zhuk ASE equipped Su-30/35 Flanker E/G/H variants, a low band radar can provide GCI vectors to position the fighter near enough for acquisition of the target, if need be with other sensors such as an IR Search and Track set.

So does this mean that, fighters like the JSF can be detected by these radars on board these planes?
 
.
@gambit I had a query which may sound like a noob to you. But, bear with me. While reading on the Kopp site, I found this statement....

The Russian approach has been to invest in the further development of low band radars, especially operating in the VHF band. With wavelengths of the order of a metre or more, only very large stealth aircraft (e.g. B-2A) satisfy the physics requirement for geometrical optics regime scattering. A fighter sized aircraft such as the JSF will see most of its carefully designed shaping features fall into the resonance or Raleigh scattering regions, where shaping is of little or no import, and skin depth penetration of the induced electrical surface currents defeats most absorbent coatings or laminates.

and

Where fighters with high power aperture X-band radars are available, such as Irbis-E or Zhuk ASE equipped Su-30/35 Flanker E/G/H variants, a low band radar can provide GCI vectors to position the fighter near enough for acquisition of the target, if need be with other sensors such as an IR Search and Track set.

So does this mean that, fighters like the JSF can be detected by these radars on board these planes?
See this...

Fundamentals of Stealth Design & Concepts of RCS Reduction | Page 3
 
. .
Gentlemen, First.. cease and desist on the name calling and off topic posts. Secondly, if you cant argue in technicalities.. or they make no sense.. then agree to disagree...otherwise moderators will have to intervene.

Now, on the topic.. There is no proof.. for and against whether the Chinese tested the Stealth Characteristics of the aircraft on a pole model. I certainly doubt the Chinese found a way to avoid the whole pole test step in the design process so it is likely that they did go through that procedure. However, to say that the US is the ONLY country in the world that can do these pole tests for RCS would be inaccurate. The British have the facility, the Russians have it... and most likely the Chinese do too.

One must not also forget that the F-117 was the result of computer simulations based on a program to find that hopeless diamond configuration. A simulation that did not involve pole tests or large infrastructure as such. So the technology to get estimates on what the RCS would be of a particular shape before even giving it a physical form and verifying any ideas on stealth has existed since the late 70s. Would that program not be available for study by now or even replicated??
After all, it is at the end a combination of mathematical equations which someone(or a team) with a good understanding of EM and Wave theory should be able to replicate.

Recently, (I believe it was either History channel or National Geographic) there was a program on the Horten 229 and its purported stealth features. The documentary was undertaken in cooperation with Northrop Grumman and it was their team that built a pole model for RCS testing. However, during the building of the model the engineers also ran a simulation Estimating the RCS before the pole test. The estimate was lower than the actual test as there were places that created a spike which the simulation program did not take into account. Yet, there was a way to measure RCS of a design before any pole test had occurred.
@gambit
 
.
The odds would be better than 50/50 that the 'underperforming' F-35 would be able to detect the Chinese flying 'stealth' junk and shoot it down with ease.

I guess when I said the US defeated 'stealth' by way of superior radar technology must have gone whoooosh over your head. If we can detect your 'stealth' aircraft, it does not matter if that aircraft have lower RCS than ours.

Do you understand now?

I think you need to be more specific instead of using meaningless vague terms such as "superior radar technology." Why don't you explain what this "superior radar technology" entails and how it works? I'll throw out some examples. Are you saying the F-35 has a low frequency radar system similar to the proposed L-band arrays in the leading edge of the PAK FA's wings? Are you saying that multiple F-35s can operate as an airborne multistatic radar? Are you saying the processing power and computers behind the F-35's radar are simply better allowing it to easily discern other stealth aircraft from clutter/noise? If it's none of the above, explain what you're talking about. You also need to cite your sources. I want to see photos, videos, or articles so we can substantiate what you're saying. You need to be able to prove that the F-35 can actually do what you're saying it can do. Your opinion is no good here.
 
.
Now, on the topic.. There is no proof.. for and against whether the Chinese tested the Stealth Characteristics of the aircraft on a pole model. I certainly doubt the Chinese found a way to avoid the whole pole test step in the design process so it is likely that they did go through that procedure. However, to say that the US is the ONLY country in the world that can do these pole tests for RCS would be inaccurate. The British have the facility, the Russians have it... and most likely the Chinese do too.
The main reason for isolated anechoic chamber testing is to have a baseline RCS measurement of the body where that baseline is as free of contaminant radiation as possible, such as those from manmade sources like TV and natural like cosmic background radiation (CBR). The drawback is limited frequency and power range. So then we developed the outdoor testing regime where we can use a greater frequency and power range. Some contaminant radiation are inevitable and that is why these facilities tends to be in physically isolated areas, such as away from large population centers.

There was a mocking post about US still using full scale models instead of computer simulation. I do hope Chinese scientists and engineers takes after that individual and not conduct full scale outdoor testing of the J-20.

One must not also forget that the F-117 was the result of computer simulations based on a program to find that hopeless diamond configuration. A simulation that did not involve pole tests or large infrastructure as such. So the technology to get estimates on what the RCS would be of a particular shape before even giving it a physical form and verifying any ideas on stealth has existed since the late 70s. Would that program not be available for study by now or even replicated??
After all, it is at the end a combination of mathematical equations which someone(or a team) with a good understanding of EM and Wave theory should be able to replicate.
The F-117 did undergo full scale model outdoor RCS testing. There were some computer simulations but because of the available technology at that time, planar angled faceting was the only technique for the F-117, hence its famous appearance today. The majority of the engineers on the program used the classical sliderule. Nevertheless, even in math one can be sloppy, especially when dealing with unpredictable variables, such as search freq from the enemy radar and/or maneuvering rate of the aircraft that will present different aspect angles to the seeking radar that will produce high/low frequency response (reflections) from the aircraft. If the responsible engineer or team of engineers fail to consider these variables down to the decimal points, the full scale model may not be as 'stealthy' as originally hoped for.

Recently, (I believe it was either History channel or National Geographic) there was a program on the Horten 229 and its purported stealth features. The documentary was undertaken in cooperation with Northrop Grumman and it was their team that built a pole model for RCS testing. However, during the building of the model the engineers also ran a simulation Estimating the RCS before the pole test. The estimate was lower than the actual test as there were places that created a spike which the simulation program did not take into account. Yet, there was a way to measure RCS of a design before any pole test had occurred.
@gambit
The H-229's low RCS was coincidental, not deliberate.

The flying wing design was known to all major aviation powers since the 1920s, from Europe to Russia and to America. Jack Northrop knew about it. But radar detection, as in the exploitation of reflections which was known since the 19th century, was not fielded until WW II. The flying wing design was known for its long range capability, not of its natural lower RCS when compared to other flying designs. Reimar and Walter Horten knew about radar and they adopted radar spoiling measures from submarine snorkels into the H-229, but they never knew how effective those measures could be because the war ended before they could test the -229 specifically against radars.

Anyway...If the logical (simulated) measurement of a body produced an estimate that is lower than the physical measurement, then the original math failed and always failed because the engineers either missed a contributor somewhere or they did not think a contributor would have any significance. Even with today's computer technology, data out is only as good as data in, but bombarding the body with real signals will always be the final arbiter.
 
.
The main reason for isolated anechoic chamber testing is to have a baseline RCS measurement of the body where that baseline is as free of contaminant radiation as possible, such as those from manmade sources like TV and natural like cosmic background radiation (CBR). The drawback is limited frequency and power range. So then we developed the outdoor testing regime where we can use a greater frequency and power range. Some contaminant radiation are inevitable and that is why these facilities tends to be in physically isolated areas, such as away from large population centers.

There was a mocking post about US still using full scale models instead of computer simulation. I do hope Chinese scientists and engineers takes after that individual and not conduct full scale outdoor testing of the J-20.


The F-117 did undergo full scale model outdoor RCS testing. There were some computer simulations but because of the available technology at that time, planar angled faceting was the only technique for the F-117, hence its famous appearance today. The majority of the engineers on the program used the classical sliderule. Nevertheless, even in math one can be sloppy, especially when dealing with unpredictable variables, such as search freq from the enemy radar and/or maneuvering rate of the aircraft that will present different aspect angles to the seeking radar that will produce high/low frequency response (reflections) from the aircraft. If the responsible engineer or team of engineers fail to consider these variables down to the decimal points, the full scale model may not be as 'stealthy' as originally hoped for.


Anyway...If the logical (simulated) measurement of a body produced an estimate that is lower than the physical measurement, then the original math failed and always failed because the engineers either missed a contributor somewhere or they did not think a contributor would have any significance. Even with today's computer technology, data out is only as good as data in, but bombarding the body with real signals will always be the final arbiter.

Interestingly, The BAE testing site at Wharton isnt too far away from Civilization or interfering signals. This is where they test projects like the Taranis.

In either case, I would be folly to simply judge that the Chinese did not go through pole model tests and other process before coming up with their designs. The truth of the matter is known only to the people at the Chinese research institutes, but a fair guesstimate would lie somewhere between the hyper bloated spaceship claims of Chinese fanboys(and Carlo Kopp) and rather dismal junk portrayal undertaken by Russian and western commentators.
 
.
Interestingly, The BAE testing site at Wharton isnt too far away from Civilization or interfering signals. This is where they test projects like the Taranis.

In either case, I would be folly to simply judge that the Chinese did not go through pole model tests and other process before coming up with their designs. The truth of the matter is known only to the people at the Chinese research institutes, but a fair guesstimate would lie somewhere between the hyper bloated spaceship claims of Chinese fanboys(and Carlo Kopp) and rather dismal junk portrayal undertaken by Russian and western commentators.

Disappointed My Indian brothers aren't fully committed to trolling here.

Must be the recent slew of bans handed out.

A lot of them, I can't say i will miss them.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom