Islamic Union

[paritosh]

Than you should not be tell us how to conduct our business. A strong Islamic world also mean a peace full co existence of humanity. Muslim world is suffering the most right now and we are fighting against all odd. Our lands and faith are being attack thus we as the follower of Ummah must unite to rescue our people from inhumane world.

in the end al-zak, it's the handful righteous facing the satanic mob.
use this statement anywhere...in any context.

 

[paritosh]

Hinduism is dead in Hindustan. You are behind the Zionist force lead by Israel.

yaar ye zionism ka hindustan se kya wasta hai?
the only thing these zionist jews do in India is visit goa and do drugs and fill the beaches with filthh...
we don't have anything against them as people but we surely have our own dharam to look upto.

 

[R.A.W.]

Hinduism is dead in Hindustan. You are behind the Zionist force lead by Israel.

And your next statement would be Hindus have become Jews.....right


Sorry sir i do not have words left..........

And anyways how do you back your claim.... that the religon which i follow is actually dead and I am following a dead religon............

 

[Al-zakir]

Hinduism is dead in Hindustan. You are behind the Zionist force lead by Israel.

And your next statement would be Hindus have become Jews.....right


Sorry sir i do not have words left..........

And anyways how do you back your claim.... that the religon which i follow is actually dead and I am following a dead religon............

Well I do not mean dead as dead. Hindu practice still valid among lower middle class and poor however elite and the upper middle class already left your religion. Liberalization and west life style will destroy the conservative look of bharat in near future. I am saying it because much of your own citizens living in USA concern about this issue and don't tell me you are not aware of such.

At the end, I really do not care about bharat direction. You are free to move ahead with your agenda. Muslim unity is only concern of Muslim thus bharat should not be worry about our direction.

 

[gogbot]

Muslims are Muslims.

It is also based on historical relevance.

Muslims think themselves as separate entity. Title and discussion in the thread is a proof.

Arrogance! Victim knows much better for the reasons of his victamization.

Denying ones way of life creates even bigger problems and Islam is our way of life.

The west is the west. they are the old guard the Eu and US.
Its based on geography and historical relevance.

Its like how China and Russia have always been the east
Its a by product of the cold war.

This is noting like referring to the Muslim world as a separate entity

Turkey is still being assesed for EU membership, it an ongoing process, of trying to integrate 2 very different cultures and different ways of doing things
Accession of Turkey to the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Its frankly presumptuous or arrogant of you to think that religion plays that big of a deal in the power game if international politics.

religion isn't gonna solve any of our problems history shows it creates more issue than it solves.
Claiming that every one is against you just because of your religion clearly demonstrates my point.

You totally took me out of context.

You are just taking religious intolerance and racism, and making it a political game.

Be Muslim if you want, no one is stopping you, but keep it out of politics.

And how come no one responds to my posts,
And people who do dont address its main points.

Are my comments on removing religion from politics, shaking the foundation of this Muslims vs the world Idea you have been preaching.

 

[EjazR]

May I know who are you suggest this ousted proposal.


That is because Quran and hadis told us to do so. Please read my previous post.

Thanks

I think we froget that Ummat-e-Muhammad includes all humans (muslims and non-muslims) till the last day. The prophet had asked to show concern for the entire ummah. Unfortunately, the term ummah is being used selectively to refer only musims among the ummah.

Sure we have to strive against injustice and cruelty, but caring for the under-privelidged among muslims adn non-muslims is part of the sunnah and Quran

Moreover, the Ayat, and Quran you quoted do not state that you have to establish a country or union based on Islam, rather that you should be united and not create secretarian differences. Somthing that is sadly lacking today and does not require use of Islam for politcal purposes to achieve. It is a social issue and would be solved only at a grassroots level.

 

[Al-zakir]

I think we froget that Ummat-e-Muhammad includes all humans (muslims and non-muslims) till the last day. The prophet had asked to show concern for the entire ummah. Unfortunately, the term ummah is being used selectively to refer only musims among the ummah.

Well Ummat e Muhammad(SAW) or Ummah refer to 'community of believers(Ummat al-muminin)". A non Muslim do no believe in Muhammad(SAW) thus I disagree with you on this one.

Sure we have to strive against injustice and cruelty, but caring for the under-privelidged among muslims adn non-muslims is part of the sunnah and Quran

Sure Islam is religion of all man kind that why Islam isn't confined in one region. caring for under privileged demanded by Islam regardless religious affiliation.

Moreover, the Ayat, and Quran you quoted do not state that you have to establish a country or union based on Islam, rather that you should be united and not create secretarian differences. Somthing that is sadly lacking today and does not require use of Islam for politcal purposes to achieve. It is a social issue and would be solved only at a grassroots level.

Concept of Ummah do not recognized boundary between Muslim region. A Muslim should allow to go another Muslim country without restriction but we have lost it due to nationalist prorogation.

 

[EjazR]

Well Ummat e Muhammad(SAW) or Ummah refer to 'community of believers(Ummat al-muminin)". A non Muslim do no believe in Muhammad(SAW) thus I disagree with you on this one.

Sure Islam is religion of all man kind that why Islam isn't confined in one region. caring for under privileged demanded by Islam regardless religious affiliation.

Concept of Ummah do not recognized boundary between Muslim region. A Muslim should allow to go another Muslim country without restriction but we have lost it due to nationalist prorogation.

I am quite aware of the recent religious nationalist (aka Islamists) efforts to potray the narrow/misguided explanation that ummah=muslim ummah. This was not so before the 1960s and ideologues in this regard include Syed qutb and Mawdudi

Ummah means community or nation, if you want to refer to muslim community, you would use musim ummah. If you refer to the Indian nation , it would be ummat-e-hind. The united nations is called ummat-e-muttahida.

If you refer to how Ibn Kathir (one of the first commentators of the Quran) explains what ummat means in the Quran

The meaning of Ummah here is those people who have had a Messenger sent among them. The meaning of Ummah in this context includes the believers and the disbelievers among them. This is like what has been recorded in Sahih Muslim

So if we believe that Muhammad (SAW) was a messenger for all manking, we have to rectify the notion of ummat-e-muhammad. Hopefully that clears it up.

 

[Al-zakir]

Ummah means community or nation, if you want to refer to muslim community, you would use musim ummah. If you refer to the Indian nation , it would be ummat-e-hind. The united nations is called ummat-e-muttahida.

Well thank you for making it easy for me.

We are talking about Ummat-e-Muslimah as nation of Muslim. Now tell me how is wrong for us to have combine nations of Ummat-e- muslimah?

 

[Omar1984]

Well I do not mean dead as dead. Hindu practice still valid among lower middle class and poor however elite and the upper middle class already left your religion. Liberalization and west life style will destroy the conservative look of bharat in near future. I am saying it because much of your own citizens living in USA concern about this issue and don't tell me you are not aware of such.

At the end, I really do not care about bharat direction. You are free to move ahead with your agenda. Muslim unity is only concern of Muslim thus bharat should not be worry about our direction.

Very well said.

India should just mind her own business and quit sticking her nose in all her neighbor's business.

 

[Developereo]

Religions ideals have never mixed well with politics. Our History shows how religion has always twisted politics to service it.

Are you sure that this Islamic union will be any different.

Yes, that would be a challenge. Ironically, the very diversity of beliefs within Islam can serve as a check against extremism. No extremist religious ideology could gain prominence within such a diverse group. Compromise would have to be the order of the day.

That is why I said that the first demonstration of this idea would be for Pakistan to form a stable, cohesive, tolerant society consisting of Sunni, Shia, and non-Muslims.

Why cant you just talk about the world?

Because any ideology becomes ineffective if it gets too diluted. Remember the motto? Think globally, act locally.

That is why people work for the betterment of their community, their village, their nation. This is just taking that concept one step further. The ultimate aim would be a unified global entity, but that discussion can wait.

Why do the Muslims have to be separate from the world?

Where did this notion of the Muslim world come from.
are you deliberately trying to isolate your self from the rest of the world.

Do you guys despise the rest of humanity so much you want your own planet.

You can say Muslim community but no , you say Muslim world.

As stated above, Muslim unity is an intermediate step between nationalism and global unity.

You attach religion to almost every aspect of your nation.

the Islamic bomb for example
Referring to your soldiers as Muslim warriors, well i know they technically are but you done have to emphasize they are Muslim all the time. we kinds get it

you see the whole world with those religious lense.
Its always Hindu this and Christian that.

All this segregation discrimination based on religious beliefs
It frankly is rather upsetting.

I agree. I don't like the militaristic or aggressive aspects of the ideology. I see it more as an extension of community spirit.

As I mentioned above, the path goes something like community -> village -> province -> country -> Muslims -> world.

Needless to say, we would have to remain vigilant against extremism along the way and to ensure equal rights for non-Muslims. Islam would define the boundaries of the union; secularism would prevail within. This would not deny the role of Islam within the culture. Islam is a part of our heritage and it would be celebrated, but it would not be misused to trample anybody's rights.

We must give up local Nationalism. Nationalism based on country is mushriki concept.

Egyptian and Persian nationalism existed long before Western (Greek) civilization was even born.
I don't think it's realistic to expect people to give up nationalism. I certainly don't want to give up Pakistani identity. That is why I said an EU-style union is much more feasible than a US-style union,

Turkey is still being assesed for EU membership, it an ongoing process, of trying to integrate 2 very different cultures and different ways of doing things

Turkey will NEVER be allowed into the EU. Even most Turks are beginning to realize it.
The EU is basically a French/German show, which is why Britain is only a half-hearted member.

Turkey’s EU Bid - Council on Foreign Relations

Britain, Spain, and the Nordic countries support Turkey; even Greece, a historical Turkish enemy, supports its bid. Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis said this month that a European Turkey is in everyone’s interest. However, strong elements in Germany, France, and the Netherlands oppose Turkey’s bid.
[...]
And a recent German Marshall Fund report on Transatlantic Trends (PDF) said support for Turkey’s membership was 11 percent in France, 15 percent in Germany and 32 percent in Britain, with over 40 percent undecided in all three countries.

Its frankly presumptuous or arrogant of you to think that religion plays that big of a deal in the power game if international politics.

I acknowledge that the ordinary Westerner is not too religious, but the influential people in these countries are often quite religious or ideologically motivated. Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp. (which controls over 15% of global media), is intensely religious and his views permeate his organization. Fundamentalist Jews in Israel, Evangelical Christians in the US, and Christian Democrats in Germany wield disproportionate influence.

Religion is not the primary motivator, but it is far from insignificant. Western politicians use code words like cultural differences, terrorism, integration -- but everybody knows what they are really talking about.

Claiming that every one is against you just because of your religion clearly demonstrates my point.

But they are against Muslims, purely because of religion. As I explained above, the ban on headscarfs in French and German schools has nothing to do with terrorism. It is an opportunistic denial of human rights specifically aimed at Muslims. The French law allows Christian crosses and star-of-David pendants. It forbids schoolgirls to wear a headscarf.

You don't need such unity, you should demand unity of humanity. Why you guys always advocate Islamic untiy? This unity will polarize world against it. Sooner we will have X-tian unity, unity of remaining sects like Jews + Hindu + Budha unity and so on.. and at last 3rd WW among these unities...

Ironically, I think this unity would actually reduce terrorism. There seem to be three main motivators of Islamic terrorism:
- unified Caliphate
- Western troops in Muslim lands
- mistreatment of Muslims in non-Muslim countries

The first two reasons would be neutralized, and the third would be much diminished by the clout of the Islamic Union. I do agree that the situation would have to be handled diplomatically to assuage any fears of an expansionist or aggressive agenda.

The irony is that the proponents of the brotherhood do not want 15 crores of their brothers to be part of the union.

The exclusion of Indian (and other) Muslims is not because they are somehow lesser Muslims. It is intended to send a clear signal to other countries and their Muslim minorities that the option is not on the table. It addresses the concerns of those countries that their Muslim minorities might become restive, and assures them that they have nothing to fear.

An Islamic Union would be the most powerful and wealthiest nation on earth.

It would be neither the most powerful, nor the wealthiest, but it would be practically immune to blackmail and sanctions. And it would provide pooled resources, resilience to setbacks, and all the other benefits of economies of scale.

yaar ye zionism ka hindustan se kya wasta hai?

Israel claims to be the largest weapons supplier to India. It was Israel, not the US or Russia or Europe, that came to India's defense in Kargil.

Be Muslim if you want, no one is stopping you, but keep it out of politics.

I agree with you in a way. My reasons for supporting a Muslim union are the same as Jinnah's. Muslims are being targetted for their religion, so we need a political solution to provide unity. However, within the unified entity, religion should be relegated to private practice. The Muslim union would be a secular state, in the sense that religion would not be a part of government. The purpose of a unified entity is not to enact an Islamic state, but to provide a safe place where Muslims can pursue their full potential, unhindered by discrimination.
(Yes, I know Pakistan has completely gone off track, but that's a different subject.)

 

[vsdoc]

And why do Pak always talk about Muslim world this and Muslim world that.

Why cant you just talk about the world?
Why do the Muslims have to be separate from the world?

Where did this notion of the Muslim world come from.
are you deliberately trying to isolate your self from the rest of the world.

Do you guys despise the rest of humanity so much you want your own planet.

You can say Muslim community but no , you say Muslim world.

You attach religion to almost every aspect of your nation.

the Islamic bomb for example
Referring to your soldiers as Muslim warriors, well i know they technically are but you done have to emphasize they are Muslim all the time. we kinds get it

you see the whole world with those religious lense.
Its always Hindu this and Christian that.

All this segregation discrimination based on religious beliefs
It frankly is rather upsetting.

If its upsetting for non-muslims, its a lot more upsetting for the majority of the world's muslims man, especially our Indian brothers.

Its a vicious cycle propagated by a few religious zealots and foisted on the whole community which gets tainted in the process in the eyes of the global non-muslim community.

Segregationism, ghettoism, us-vs-them-sim, call it what you will, it breeds hostility and mistrust amongst the non-muslims towards muslims, and that pushes the muslims further into their pure-muslim-only shells, within which festers radicalism, hatred, and a rabid communal persecution-complex that is fed and nurtured by the zealots for their own vested ends.

Indian muslims got this in 1947. SOME Pakistani muslims are beginning to get it today.

So while the seperationists succeed (only to ultimately fail), the well adjusted mainstream integrated and assimilated Muslims the world over land up footing the collective bill, all of course in the name of the divinely ordained Islamic Brotherhood shoved down their collective throats.

This entire thread is just a thinly-veiled "civilized" front for just that ..... enthusiastically participated in by the so-called 10% educated forward-thinking elite.

God save us then from the remaining 90% in that case.

Cheers, Doc

 

[R.A.W.]

Very well said.

India should just mind her own business and quit sticking her nose in all her neighbor's business.

Better applies to you

 

[R.A.W.]

Well I do not mean dead as dead. Hindu practice still valid among lower middle class and poor however elite and the upper middle class already left your religion. Liberalization and west life style will destroy the conservative look of bharat in near future. I am saying it because much of your own citizens living in USA concern about this issue and don't tell me you are not aware of such.

Well Indian middle class consists of about 400 million people so it becomes a non Hindu society automatically so stop calling India a hindu nation...

Second India has always been the part of infusion from various cultures for past 5000 years from Islamic to Christian and now west. That forms the core of the Indian culture to remain in originality with the trend of the society. It keeps you up in sync with the time.

It is useless to live in a delusion of something which is 1000 year. Cultures have to move on.

 

[Canaan]

guys, let's discuss more practical issues rather than ideological issues.
For instance, how would an average muslim proceed in realizing the creation of a union. Am I wrong if I don't want to wait for lazy corrupt politicians to move their butt?
What about issues like, infrastructure, currency etc. what would you suggest?