Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Coordinates are being given by amature civilians and not the Indian army.

..............there is no such word as "amature" in the English dictionary.........

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

There is no maybe. We often argue that the military is a reflection of the society it is recruited from. This is an Indian military from the same society that elected hate mongering bigots to power in India nationally. It is an Indian military that has had no qualms about perpetrating atrocities on civilians in Indian Occupied Kashmir - atrocities on innocent people that the Indian government considers ‘Indian Citizens’. There is no reason to agree or be polite about the fact that this disgusting and disgraceful institution of the Indian Military would have any qualms about massacring innocent people on the Pakistani side of the LoC.

Don’t turn into a Pakistani leftist for the sake of building friendships and extend ‘equal equal’ or ‘both sides do this’ olive branch BS to Indians on this issue. There is no longer any comparison to be made between the Indian military & Pakistani military on this issue.

Why isn't PA replying? Its Pakistan's duty to protect its citizens including those who live at LOC. Its better if PA bomb their Military Target(s) and make the video of the attack and post online.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Coordinates are being given by amature civilians and not the Indian army.

If the Indian military is sharing alleged camera footage of the strikes, why isn’t it providing coordinates? If the Indian Mil claims are true, do you think the PA doesn’t know the coordinates of where the alleged strikes took place? What operational secrecy is compromised with sharing coordinates of the alleged Indian strikes AFTER the strikes are over, given past lies by the Indian Military, so the Indian claims can be independently verified?

This has BS written all over it just like the Balakot and previous ‘surgical strikes’.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Coordinates are being given by amature civilians and not the Indian army.



You can ask your government, where the firing took place, they will give you the same answer as me.

And the evidence for that is?????...........

 

[Osiris]

Indian ceasefire violations and unprovoked attacked on civilians are not in question - what is in question and what remains unsubstantiated are Indian claims of material or human casualties inflicted upon the PA in said strikes, much like the unsubstantiated claims of previous ‘surgical strikes’.

The entire world analyzed the failed Indian Balakot strikes and came to the same conclusion as Pakistan - that the Indian Government and Military were full of BS. It’ll require a significant amount of verifiable evidence to trust anything the Indian Military & Govt say about so called strikes.

You claim, it is an unprovoked attack on civilians, where as we are yet to see, even a picture of a injured Civilian or where these shells fell.

However, what we have seen is, a footage of Indian bofors guns firing and a drone footage of a building being struck followed by multiple secondary explosions.

 

[jarves]

If both India and Pakistan had any brains, they would have made LOC international border by now, both nations are getting played by bigger powers and enjoying this idiocy.

 

[IMARV]

If the Indian military is sharing alleged camera footage of the strikes, why isn’t it providing coordinates? If the Indian Mil claims are true, do you think the PA doesn’t know the coordinates of where the alleged strikes took place? What operational secrecy is compromised with sharing coordinates of the alleged Indian strikes AFTER the strikes are over, given past lies by the Indian Military, so the Indian claims can be independently verified?

This has BS written all over it just like the Balakot and previous ‘surgical strikes’.

Sometimes I wonder how come a proclaimed armed forces institution like Indian Army release something, fake every time, to a level that any arm chair general sitting over the internet can debunk them in 2 mins.

Worse, after each global embarrassment, they refuse to learn and dont come up with well covered story(offcouse fake), next time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You claim, it is an unprovoked attack on civilians, where as we are yet to see, even a picture of a injured Civilian or where these shells fell.

However, what we have seen is, a footage of Indian bofors guns firing and a drone footage of a building being struck followed by multiple secondary explosions.

We have plenty of existing footage of civilian homes being destroyed and civilians killed in previous Indian ceasefire violations and attacks across the LoC. Nothing to indicate the Indian Military has improved its behavior & stopped war crimes since then.

With respect to the drone footage - that could be of anything. As I said, no operational secrecy is compromised by the Indian Military sharing the coordinates of the targeted locations AFTER the attacks so that there can be independent credible verification of Indian claims. The Indian military has not provided those so far and only provided so called video footage whose veracity cannot be verified.

Continued Indian Military & Govt refusal to provide coordinates of the alleged strikes only makes these claims appear lies and fabrications like the Balakot casualty & F-16 downed claims.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Unsubstantiated allegations of infiltration do not justify atrocities against non-combatants as is the case with Indian CF violations along the LoC.

Unsubstantiated? There are five dead bodies in the latest instance. The terror camps exist, the insertion launch pads exist, and the incidents go back some decades.

Furthermore, as far as allegations of cease-fire violations go, it would seem that there has never been any such action by the opposite side. What was it about the beam in one's eye before the mote in that of another?

And as far as omissions go, the biggest omission here is the one from the Indian side about the atrocities, torture, rape & massacres over 70 plus years of occupation and the recent crackdown and implementation of policies to assist in genocide in IOK through demographic change.

Even the most detached and neutral investigations have not found any basis to these allegations beyond a handful of ghastly incidents; however, it is not the numbers, but the existence of an entire ecology of victim-hood, of people who earn their living out of representing the most terrible incidents that have never occurred. There is a ready market for such narrations; one has only to look at the reporting and the nature of the reports to gauge the situation.

The most galling thing is to be informed about these situations with great authority by people sitting in Karachi, and in Lahore, and in Rawalpindi and Islamabad, with complete indifference to what I have personally seen and heard (both good and bad) on my personal visits to the Vale. Those visits are no longer possible thanks to circumstances beyond my control, but the stories are carbon copies. Those that are true are vociferously reported by Indian media; it was thanks to Indian media that we learn about that oaf, Leetul Gogoi, and about the even more oafish action of the then Army high command in not punishing him but recognising his initiative.

The point is that we do not need to be told about what is happening; we know, and there is a strong body of objection to anything that even smacks of repressive measures, even when this affects the procedures used by the security forces in counter-terrorist actions.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

There is no maybe. We often argue that the military is a reflection of the society it is recruited from. This is an Indian military from the same society that elected hate mongering bigots to power in India nationally. It is an Indian military that has had no qualms about perpetrating atrocities on civilians in Indian Occupied Kashmir - atrocities on innocent people that the Indian government considers ‘Indian Citizens’. There is no reason to agree or be polite about the fact that this disgusting and disgraceful institution of the Indian Military would have any qualms about massacring innocent people on the Pakistani side of the LoC.

Don’t turn into a Pakistani leftist for the sake of building friendships and extend ‘equal equal’ or ‘both sides do this’ olive branch BS to Indians on this issue. There is no longer any comparison to be made between the Indian military & Pakistani military on this issue.

For the record, I'm on your side. I sometimes advocate for the devil for argument's sake, nothing more.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Maybe, maybe not, but the best case scenario is that the thresholds for sanctimony or protest are different depending on which civilian community is suffering. We know Indian state apparatus can behave as such because of the codified discrimination passed by parliament of late. Anyway, ultimately this is a becoming a subjective argument.

The 'codified discrimination' that has been passed, to use your words, has nothing to do with the actions of those responsible for hunting down and killing infiltrators. If you are referring to the amendment of Art. 370, it is not clear how that amounts to discrimination; it amounts to equation. If you are referring to the amendment of Art. 35A, perhaps you should glance through the original to gauge its inequity. Furthermore, neither of these acts have had any physical impact; their impact was entirely, wholly psychological. So linking them to actions by the Army on the ground, either by intercepting infiltrators, or by punishing acts of violence, is a huge disconnect.

Subjectivity does occur, but not at all levels. When we refer to 'codified discrimination', we are referring to specific actions, that can be examined in detail without difficulty. When we refer to an intent behind a shell, we are referring to assumed intentions, that cannot be examined.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

We have plenty of existing footage of civilian homes being destroyed and civilians killed in previous Indian ceasefire violations and attacks across the LoC. Nothing to indicate the Indian Military has improved its behavior & stopped war crimes since then.

With respect to the drone footage - that could be of anything. As I said, no operational secrecy is compromised by the Indian Military sharing the coordinates of the targeted locations AFTER the attacks so that there can be independent credible verification of Indian claims. The Indian military has not provided those so far and only provided so called video footage whose veracity cannot be verified.

Continued Indian Military & Govt refusal to provide coordinates of the alleged strikes only makes these claims appear lies and fabrications like the Balakot casualty & F-16 downed claims.

That's because the indian military knows that they can't take on the Pakistani military despite being more than 7× bigger than us and having the full backing of the West and Russia. They are cowards. Which is why they resort to killing civilians.

 

[BL33D]

Yes, he is famed Maratha.
I'm merely hinting at his physical appearance of an intellectual rather than ferocious warrior. Not suggesting, it's a handicap, modern warfare needs intellectual generals.

Intellectual and smart is all good. But a general should also be decisive and confident, which the very appearance of Narvane oozes.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Whether or not you find something as superfluous, does not change the fact does it?

If it is a fact, no, it does not. But where we are confronted with surmise and supposition, we do not find facts, we find surmise and supposition.

This Fractricide:
https://www.airforcetimes.com/flash...r-force-says-it-shot-down-its-own-helicopter/
You cant be that oblivious to reality Joe or has the age finally caught up?

You are right in that I am aging, and no longer interested in correcting distortions of fact. That old desire to correct every mis-statement is gone, and its futility increasingly obvious. Neither my objections to what is mis-stated nor the wilful distortions that occur by habit have ceased due to my increasing age, however.

When, by the way, did I deny the loss of the helicopter? Have you come across the Straw Man gambit?

Bombing of a location as it turns out the coordinates being circulated by India as ammo dump are also turning out to be fake as there is only civilian population there and not ammunition.

The visual evidence is, of course,nonsense, and we are to assume that some BJP functionary photoshopped them into existence.

Not that it comes as a surprise since this is all India under Modi has been doing, making one claim after the other for domestic consumption. I dont know which zeros are you referring to since i never made a claim on anything other than what is already known in the public domain. 400-500 is the claim made by India, the only magic that we didnt knew we had was to somehow make such a huge number disappear.

The zero referred to the non-existence of any external elements, any infiltrators, in all statements and opinions by my distinguished fellow-members when referring to the deaths of five para-troopers.

For the record, I have no respect for the Modi administration's claims, and have only gone by what is put out by the military.

 

[Osiris]

We have plenty of existing footage of civilian homes being destroyed and civilians killed in previous Indian ceasefire violations and attacks across the LoC. Nothing to indicate the Indian Military has improved its behavior & stopped war crimes since then.

With respect to the drone footage - that could be of anything. As I said, no operational secrecy is compromised by the Indian Military sharing the coordinates of the targeted locations AFTER the attacks so that there can be independent credible verification of Indian claims. The Indian military has not provided those so far and only provided so called video footage whose veracity cannot be verified.

Continued Indian Military & Govt refusal to provide coordinates of the alleged strikes only makes these claims appear lies and fabrications like the Balakot casualty & F-16 downed claims.

You demand proof from Indian army on one hand, where as provide no proof ..that civilians were hit.