Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Where as Pakistan army is claiming, that Indian army hit civilian targets

The easiest way of debunking Indian army's claims, would be for Pakistan to actually show , where these artillery shells landed, the craters formed or the civilians injured. If that is not being provided, what are we to assume ?

That would be a much more conclusive proof, that some co-ordinates, which you will have cross reference with Indian drone footage(which you believe is doctored in the first place.)

Indian artillery shells could have landed anywhere, or nowhere. It is a logical fallacy to argue that Pakistan should prove a negative. India is making claims about carrying out strikes on non-military targets so the onus is on her to provide coordinates for the locations where those strikes were carried out so that independent verification can take place.

Pakistan has to provide images/video of civilian casualties to support its claims.

If neither side provides evidence, is the conclusion then that the Indian Army bombed nothing more than a bunch of rocks and trees like the IAF in Balakot?

 

[IMARV]

My argument is based on Indian lies about Balakot & the F-16 shot down being debunked by almost every independent entity in the world that was analyzing Indian claims. It’s based on the fact that the Indian media continues to parrot the Indian government AND Indian military lies despite being debunked.

And it’s based on the incessant hatred against Pakistan, Pakistanis and even Indian Muslims promoted in the Indian media.

How may independent entities has supported your claim of MKI? What is your opinion on that sham PAF ceremony and memorial celebrating those cooked up stories?

Our lie about Balakot made you lock that place for months, you were given co-ordinates, were you able to go and validate those claim? I can post many article from Pak media where up to this date, people of that region are terrified to speak about balakot and ISI haunting anyone trying to visit there.

And now asking for co-ordinates about this strike as if you will drive to the place like a morning walk, if at all it happened?

 

[IceCold]

If it is a fact, no, it does not. But where we are confronted with surmise and supposition, we do not find facts, we find surmise and supposition.



You are right in that I am aging, and no longer interested in correcting distortions of fact. That old desire to correct every mis-statement is gone, and its futility increasingly obvious. Neither my objections to what is mis-stated nor the wilful distortions that occur by habit have ceased due to my increasing age, however.

When, by the way, did I deny the loss of the helicopter? Have you come across the Straw Man gambit?



The visual evidence is, of course,nonsense, and we are to assume that some BJP functionary photoshopped them into existence.



The zero referred to the non-existence of any external elements, any infiltrators, in all statements and opinions by my distinguished fellow-members when referring to the deaths of five para-troopers.

For the record, I have no respect for the Modi administration's claims, and have only gone by what is put out by the military.

So which part is distortion of facts Joe? The downing of one's own chopper killing all on board, the loss of Indian jets, capturing of IAF pilot, the 400 to 500 figure which by the way is quoted by Indian army, we along with the rest of the world was having a hard time finding all those bodies.
The image circulated by the IA or for that matter the coordinates does not match with any ammo dump in the area. Many Pakistani posters have even posted the actual photo of the area.

 

[IMARV]

Why r u so much concerned about democracy in Pakistan? Its because under dictatorships that the kicks we delivered in your baIIs have hurt you the most

Yes sir, those terror strikes still hurt us, our people died.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

How may independent entities has supported your claim of MKI? What is your opinion on that sham PAF ceremony and memorial celebrating those cooked up stories?

Our lie about Balakot made you lock that place for months, you were given co-ordinates, were you able to go and validate those claim? I can post many article from Pak media where up to this date, people of that region are terrified to speak about balakot and ISI haunting anyone trying to visit there.

And now asking for co-ordinates about this strike as if you will drive to the place like a morning walk, if at all it happened?

None supports our claim about MKI. That sham ceremony took place in presence in presence of Russian, American and Chinese defence attaches.

None of the independent entities supported your calim of F-16 and Balakot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How may independent entities has supported your claim of MKI? What is your opinion on that sham PAF ceremony and memorial celebrating those cooked up stories?

Our lie about Balakot made you lock that place for months, you were given co-ordinates, were you able to go and validate those claim? I can post many article from Pak media where up to this date, people of that region are terrified to speak about balakot and ISI haunting anyone trying to visit there.

And now asking for co-ordinates about this strike as if you will drive to the place like a morning walk, if at all it happened?

Multiple independent organizations analyzed Indian claims about Balakot based on the target locations and came up with the same conclusion - that the Indian Military & Government we’re lying and full of BS.

The Pakistan Army took local and foreign journalists to the location of the so called surgical strike prior to Balakot as well - again, nothing but lies & BS from the Indian Army & Government.

What locals think is irrelevant - coordinates of the targeted location can allow for independent confirmation of the damage at said locations through satellite analysis. Without the Indian military providing said coordinates, this is yet another Bollywood tamasha of lies by the Indian military at the behest of the genocidal maniacs running India.

 

[IMARV]

None supports our claim about MKI. That sham ceremony took place in presence in presence of Russian, American and Chinese defence attaches.

None of the independent entities supported your calim of F-16 and Balakot.

No one was supposed to support any of the versions, that's call geo politics. Then why this "better than thou" attitude?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No one was supposed to support any of the versions, that's call geo politics. Then why this "better than thou" attitude?

Indian claims were clearly proven to be lies yet the Indian military, government and media continue to parrot said lies again and again despite being debunked globally - that’s why the ‘holier than thou’ attitude.

 

[Osiris]

Indian artillery shells could have landed anywhere, or nowhere. It is a logical fallacy to argue that Pakistan should prove a negative. India is making claims about carrying out strikes on non-military targets so the onus is on her to provide coordinates for the locations where those strikes were carried out so that independent verification can take place.

Pakistan has to provide images/video of civilian casualties to support its claims.

If neither side provides evidence, is the conclusion then that the Indian Army bombed nothing more than a bunch of rocks and trees like the IAF in Balakot?

It is not a negative, Pakistan says, artillery shells landed on Civilian homes and 8 people were injured. (Fist of all, if a 155mm artillery shell lands near your home, None would be left alive.) You just have to show, exactly which home did they land on, that will prove your claim and also debunk Indian claims.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

No one was supposed to support any of the versions, that's call geo politics. Then why this "better than thou" attitude?

Why would independent journalists and OSINTs would play politics???

 

[masterchief_mirza]

No they did not. 31% is not a majority.



You will find harsher criticism of these symptoms among Indian liberals; unfortunately, this is not a forum where we have to fight off bhakts in public view, so it may appear to you that Indian opinion has been put through a blender. Far from it. However, on matters of national security where there are obvious misrepresentations being made, it is difficult to remember that the defence minister now is an RSS member.

Ok, not a majority but still first past the post and high enough to form a government and push their agenda independently.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Do the UN observers monitor 'launch pads' or even know about their existence, or wish to know about them? You are surely aware of the protocols surrounding these visits and inspections, and how easy it is to carry on whatever is being done whenever there is nobody present by prior appointment to inspect the goings-on.

Refusing to allow the UN to pursue its old role started from the time when Pakistan agreed, by treaty, to treat the Kashmir issue as a bilateral issue. It is quite another matter that this turns out to have been a deliberate subterfuge, and a blatant exploitation of the liberal spirit shown by the Indian side during the treaty preliminaries.

There are no 'launch pads', an informed person like you should know better.

The point is that the Indian accusations and allegations regarding infiltration can't be taken seriously when it's India itself that refuses to allow any neutral mechanism to investigate such charges.

It's the neutral arbitrator, i.e, the UN itself that does not accept the Indian misinterpretation of Simla, you can't blame us for that.

I am going on about Amnesty International, that has been dependent on professional story-tellers, and about the UNHRC, that has shown under a previous head that it could not care less about investigating the matter in detail. This was the period when the human rights violations in Pakistan itself, and in those countries allied to the country of the head, were totally whitewashed.

You, of course, are free to reject reports by neutral agencies (including UN) regarding human rights violation in IOK, but saying that 'no neutral investigation has found any basis to the allegations of human rights abuses in IOK' is simply incorrect.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is not a negative, Pakistan says, artillery shells landed on Civilian homes and 8 people were injured. (Fist of all, if a 155mm artillery shell lands near your home, None would be left alive.) You just have to show, exactly which home did they land on, that will prove your claim and also debunk Indian claims.

It’s only a valid request with respect to Pakistani claims about civilian casualties. I’m fine with waiting for images/video of civilian casualties before pressing that claim.

Now back to the Indian Army claims about hitting non-civilian targets - where are the coordinates of those alleged targets so that Indian Army claims can be independently verified?

The Indian Military is on a pretty shitty streak of having its ‘surgical strikes’ claims getting demolished and exposed as lies, so nothing they say can be taken as credible without coordinates etc to verify.

After getting exposed over Balakot & the ‘surgical strikes’ preceding Balakot, it’s not surprising that the IA won’t release coordinates for the recent strikes and make themselves a laughing stock in front of the world again.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

It is not a negative, Pakistan says, artillery shells landed on Civilian homes and 8 people were injured. (Fist of all, if a 155mm artillery shell lands near your home, None would be left alive.) You just have to show, exactly which home did they land on, that will prove your claim and also debunk Indian claims.

Photos are around on Twitter.

 

[Side-Winder]

How may independent entities has supported your claim of MKI? What is your opinion on that sham PAF ceremony and memorial celebrating those cooked up stories?

Ok, we did not provide any conclusive proof of MKI, You did not for F-16. You see what's the difference?
Your claim has been counter proven with the counting of F-16 fleet and showing up of all the missiles unfired. While IAF is yet bring anything on table to counter prove the PAF claim.

Our lie about Balakot made you lock that place for months, you were given co-ordinates, were you able to go and validate those claim? I can post many article from Pak media where up to this date, people of that region are terrified to speak about balakot and ISI haunting anyone trying to visit there.

Immediate satellite imagery hours after the strike showed everything what the world needed to see, dude. You know what a proof looks like?