Indian Army used artillery & heavy mortars on LOC targeting Civilian Population

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Do you read what you post? Half your theory depends on the witness precisely indicating a crash site while the other half depends on the same witness making a mistake. So if he's accurate in positioning, your counter argument is that no Pakistani saw anything so it can't be trusted what this Indian said??

As for 2km, it isn't a given that smoke can be seen at that distance and it isn't a given that Pakistanis would be standing there looking. If you wish to deny your countryman and depend on Pakistani testimony because it suits you, fair enough, but you're being disingenuous.

If he's confused over positions well that's a great way to escape the assertions of any eye witness account - "he's got it wrong m'Lord".

A plane went down, which wasn't an f16 and wasn't Nandu's.

You are the one not reading at all.
His seeing a plane crash (Mig21) and the general location (sher makadi) was accurate but since his line of sight of the crash site was blocked by a big hill he is unable to give precise location of crash site.

I go by facts and logics not countryman or woman.

Aher makadi area is one of the most militarized zones in LoC with both sides having posts evry 250m facing each other.

The only plane that they saw going down was a MiG-21 which was confirmed by DFRLab as trying to return to India.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Unsubstantiated?

India accuses Pakistan of ceasefire violations and infiltration but then it's India (and not Pakistan) which refuses to allow any neutral mechanism to investigate such charges. The UN observers routinely visit and monitor Pakistani side of LoC But India doesn't allow UN observers near LoC on their side

So, yes... those allegations and assertions remain largely unsubstantiated

Even the most detached and neutral investigations have not found any basis to these allegations beyond a handful of ghastly incidents; however, it is not the numbers, but the existence of an entire ecology of victim-hood, of people who earn their living out of representing the most terrible incidents that have never occurred. There is a ready market for such narrations; one has only to look at the reporting and the nature of the reports to gauge the situation.

Almost all neutral organizations (including UN) have accused India of serious human rights violations on a large scale in Indian Occupied Kashmir. What are you going on about, sir?

 

[Aasimkhan]

When we from the both sides knows it very well that LoC is a war zone line all the time, then why to hassitate to vacate your civilians from border zone . India already has done it because we care for lives of our civilians. May be your govt and army doesn't care much for Kashmiri people from across the border or may be you are lying about civilians causality to plah victim card all the time.

They are kashmiris, they are the owners of these lands since centuries, they were here much before you came and they will remain here ever after you are gone. We exercise restraint while targetting your posts because Kashmiris on both sides of LOC are Pakistan loving Muslims. We are not heartless, illegal, illegitimate occupiers like you thats why we exercise trigger control.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

The 'codified discrimination' that has been passed, to use your words, has nothing to do with the actions of those responsible for hunting down and killing infiltrators. If you are referring to the amendment of Art. 370, it is not clear how that amounts to discrimination; it amounts to equation. If you are referring to the amendment of Art. 35A, perhaps you should glance through the original to gauge its inequity. Furthermore, neither of these acts have had any physical impact; their impact was entirely, wholly psychological. So linking them to actions by the Army on the ground, either by intercepting infiltrators, or by punishing acts of violence, is a huge disconnect.

Subjectivity does occur, but not at all levels. When we refer to 'codified discrimination', we are referring to specific actions, that can be examined in detail without difficulty. When we refer to an intent behind a shell, we are referring to assumed intentions, that cannot be examined.

True I'm generalising/extrapolating but whether or not all Indians have a bhakt extreme mentality, Indians did vote for Modi in a majority. To suggest all state apparatus are not tainted by this is naive, even though this cannot be quantified. Media criticism is methodically silenced, opposition dissent is summarily dismissed as near treason, and high court judges are quietly moved on if they disagree with police tactics during a protest in Delhi. One would be hard pushed to say the Indian military somehow doesn't follow the mood of other state apparatus. I won't derail the thread further but thanks for the discussion.

 

[BL33D]

India accuses Pakistan of ceasefire violations and infiltration but then it's India (and not Pakistan) which refuses to allow any neutral mechanism to investigate such charges. The UN observers routinely visit and monitor Pakistani side of LoC But India doesn't allow UN observers near LoC on their side

So, yes... those allegations and assertions remain largely unsubstantiated




Almost all neutral organizations (including UN) have accused India of serious human rights violations on a large scale in Indian Occupied Kashmir. What are you going on about, sir?

How does this UN observer mechanism work. And if its anyway useful, how come UN hasnt taken notice of all the unprovoked firing and shelling by India. Shouldnt that be the most obvious thing ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You demand proof from Indian army on one hand, where as provide no proof ..that civilians were hit.

The Indian Army is making claims of hitting non-civilian targets, providing so called ‘drone footage’. The easiest way to verify this is through the provision of coordinates of the target locations by the Indian military.

Video footage & images of Indian war crimes (attacks on civilians in Azad Kashmir) have always been available on the Pakistani side, typically taken & broadcast by Pakistani private media houses. We’ll wait and see if there is any for this round.


But, again, there is nothing stopping the Indian government & military from sharing coordinates of the alleged strike locations so that Indian claims can be independently verified.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Actually Modi has a different plan but now it ia postponed because of pandemic.
You guys are lucky. Enjoy the life untill India's economy gets lift.

India's economy will never lift now, learn to eat shit

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sometimes I wonder how come a proclaimed armed forces institution like Indian Army release something, fake every time, to a level that any arm chair general sitting over the internet can debunk them in 2 mins.

Worse, after each global embarrassment, they refuse to learn and dont come up with well covered story(offcouse fake), next time.

Because the Indians have a slavish media that is fed disinformation from a variety of sources (some of it concocted on its own), and a populace that largely laps up said disinformation.

How many Indians still believe they killed ‘hundreds of terrorists in Balakot’ or that the IAF actually shot down an F-16?

Says a lot about the state of the country.

 

[IMARV]

India accuses Pakistan of ceasefire violations and infiltration but then it's India (and not Pakistan) which refuses to allow any neutral mechanism to investigate such charges. The UN observers routinely visit and monitor Pakistani side of LoC But India doesn't allow UN observers near LoC on their side

So, yes... those allegations and assertions remain largely unsubstantiated

Quite rich when same UN has banned plenty of pakistan based terror outfit for not just India but sponsoring terrorism through out the world. Shall we write down here how many you host there?

Your continuous and callous attempt to get any third party involved in Kashmir, using such tactics, wont give you any fruitful returns, as always.

Almost all neutral organizations (including UN) have accused India of serious human rights violations on a large scale in Indian Occupied Kashmir. What are you going on about, sir?

Same for you.

Only if you have not made their life hell after Afghan war.

 

[Joe Shearer]

India accuses Pakistan of ceasefire violations and infiltration but then it's India (and not Pakistan) which refuses to allow any neutral mechanism to investigate such charges. The UN observers routinely visit and monitor Pakistani side of LoC But India doesn't allow UN observers near LoC on their side

So, yes... those allegations and assertions remain largely unsubstantiated

Do the UN observers monitor 'launch pads' or even know about their existence, or wish to know about them? You are surely aware of the protocols surrounding these visits and inspections, and how easy it is to carry on whatever is being done whenever there is nobody present by prior appointment to inspect the goings-on.

Refusing to allow the UN to pursue its old role started from the time when Pakistan agreed, by treaty, to treat the Kashmir issue as a bilateral issue. It is quite another matter that this turns out to have been a deliberate subterfuge, and a blatant exploitation of the liberal spirit shown by the Indian side during the treaty preliminaries.

Almost all neutral organizations (including UN) have accused India of serious human rights violations on a large scale in Indian Occupied Kashmir. What are you going on about, sir?

I am going on about Amnesty International, that has been dependent on professional story-tellers, and about the UNHRC, that has shown under a previous head that it could not care less about investigating the matter in detail. This was the period when the human rights violations in Pakistan itself, and in those countries allied to the country of the head, were totally whitewashed.

Should I take these seriously?

 

[IMARV]

Because the Indians have a slavish media that is fed disinformation from a variety of sources (some of it concocted on its own), and a populace that largely laps up said disinformation.

How many Indians still believe they killed ‘hundreds of terrorists in Balakot’ or that the IAF actually shot down an F-16?

Says a lot about the state of the country.

Your whole argument is based on that "my story is true". Pakistan army has been documented at largest scale to put democracy at ransom, bringing dictatorship at will and be-fooling the common men about how it fare in any war.

Why should your version be taken at face value?

 

[Osiris]

The Indian Army is making claims of hitting non-civilian targets, providing so called ‘drone footage’. The easiest way to verify this is through the provision of coordinates of the target locations by the Indian military.

Video footage & images of Indian war crimes (attacks on civilians in Azad Kashmir) have always been available on the Pakistani side, typically taken & broadcast by Pakistani private media houses. We’ll wait and see if there is any for this round.


But, again, there is nothing stopping the Indian government & military from sharing coordinates of the alleged strike locations so that Indian claims can be independently verified.

Where as Pakistan army is claiming, that Indian army hit civilian targets

The easiest way of debunking Indian army's claims, would be for Pakistan to actually show , where these artillery shells landed, the craters formed or the civilians injured. If that is not being provided, what are we to assume ?

That would be a much more conclusive proof, that some co-ordinates, which you will have cross reference with Indian drone footage(which you believe is doctored in the first place.)

 

[Joe Shearer]

True I'm generalising/extrapolating but whether or not all Indians have a bhakt extreme mentality, Indians did vote for Modi in a majority.

No they did not. 31% is not a majority.

To suggest all state apparatus are not tainted by this is naive, even though this cannot be quantified. Media criticism is methodically silenced, opposition dissent is summarily dismissed as near treason, and high court judges are quietly moved on if they disagree with police tactics during a protest in Delhi. One would be hard pushed to say the Indian military somehow doesn't follow the mood of other state apparatus. I won't derail the thread further but thanks for the discussion.

You will find harsher criticism of these symptoms among Indian liberals; unfortunately, this is not a forum where we have to fight off bhakts in public view, so it may appear to you that Indian opinion has been put through a blender. Far from it. However, on matters of national security where there are obvious misrepresentations being made, it is difficult to remember that the defence minister now is an RSS member.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Your whole argument is based on that "my story is true". Pakistan army has been documented at largest scale to put democracy at ransom, bringing dictatorship at will and be-fooling the common men about how it fare in any war.

Why should your version be taken at face value?

My argument is based on Indian lies about Balakot & the F-16 shot down being debunked by almost every independent entity in the world that was analyzing Indian claims. It’s based on the fact that the Indian media continues to parrot the Indian government AND Indian military lies despite being debunked.

And it’s based on the incessant hatred against Pakistan, Pakistanis and even Indian Muslims promoted in the Indian media.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Your whole argument is based on that "my story is true". Pakistan army has been documented at largest scale to put democracy at ransom, bringing dictatorship at will and be-fooling the common men about how it fare in any war.

Why should your version be taken at face value?

Why r u so much concerned about democracy in Pakistan? Its because under dictatorships that the kicks we delivered in your baIIs have hurt you the most