HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[arp2041]

DRDO says it will come with MK2, while MoD/IAF were searching for co-development partners and didn't stated anything official yet.



That's what I'm saying all the time, that this system must be changed to finally induct MK1, but apart from that IAF as the customer has the right to demand what they really ordered and if the industry messed it up, they have to fix the problems. You wouldn't accept a Tata Nano, when you initially has ordered an Mercedes A Class would you?
So you have to differ between them demanding the power they need for the fighter as initially planned and this unusual induction system!

Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........

 

[Bobby]

If LCA was inducted by IAF and then these trial happen...then nobody would have talked of delay etc.........Making fighter plane first time is not that easy thing at all ..unlike JF17 which was made by China and gave to Pak......and it so half cooked plane that even china never added a signle F17 in its fleet.

Making of LCA is priceless experience for DRDO....it is like how ISRO struggle to establish reliable launch pad but once they did they got more and more successful launch....

I am not disappointing at all....LCA is bigger achievement than PAKFA which will be mainly designed by Russia and India has only 30% role......

 

[sancho]

Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........

That is the case, be it for the radar, for the weight and drag issues, the FCS that wasn't working correctly...all problems of the development, not IAF requirements. IAF just demanded to get them done, that's why Elta in later stages were chosen to help DRDO in the MMR development, why a proven GE engine was chosen to bridge the gap for Kaveri engine, why a more powerful engine was needed to counter the weight and drag issues...
Where they cause delays are the induction and insisting on Kaveri development to remain indigenous, instead of accepting the co-development with Snecma!

Making of LCA is priceless experience for DRDO....it is like how ISRO struggle to establish reliable launch pad but once they did they got more and more successful launch....

I am not disappointing at all....LCA is bigger achievement than PAKFA which will be mainly designed by Russia and India has only 30% role......

On what did DRDO got experience? On failing with their developments, on failing with project management, on giving baseless promises.
We can benefit way more with less involvement in a NG partnership, than developing a current gen fighter alone, especially if we plan it like this. LCA development was the right way to start, but if we want to get better the fast as possible, partnerships and JV are the best way, not wasting time on fully indigenous developments. That's the most important point we learned from LCA development so far!

 

[karan.1970]

Loosing a Project after struggling 20+ years isn't really a success and in such case LCA Project will just serve as a basic excremental plane for AMCA.
and what you couldn't understand is not your fault at all. See, when US ask any GOVT to select their product over competitor product then they give commission to selected corrupt personal for their duties. Those corrupt personal bring unnecessary delays in project which can at least deliver one or half Sqn. to AF for testing & evaluation of operational capabilities. Then one day they will drop the whole project for a good and more powerful American jet. They tried to do the same for JFT but because of a few good personal in PAF they couldn't succeed. That's why the total No. of Blk.52 were reduced TWICE back in 2005-6.
You people wont understand unless you experience it.

Your post seems a little foolish since India has not till date selected a US fighter plane..

 

[manofwar]

That is the case, be it for the radar, for the weight and drag issues, the FCS that wasn't working correctly...all problems of the development, not IAF requirements. IAF just demanded to get them done, that's why Elta in later stages were chosen to help DRDO in the MMR development, why a proven GE engine was chosen to bridge the gap for Kaveri engine, why a more powerful engine was needed to counter the weight and drag issues...
Where they cause delays are the induction and insisting on Kaveri development to remain indigenous, instead of accepting the co-development with Snecma!



On what did DRDO got experience? On failing with their developments, on failing with project management, on giving baseless promises.
We can benefit way more with less involvement in a NG partnership, than developing a current gen fighter alone, especially if we plan it like this. LCA development was the right way to start, but if we want to get better the fast as possible, partnerships and JV are the best way, not wasting time on fully indigenous developments. That's the most important point we learned from LCA development so far!

I wouldn't say that a light category fighter with RCS 2 m2, such awesome avionics and other components is a failiure
Engine is only one component, there are thousands of others which need to be integrated and developed before the plane can take flight..........
And considering this was only our first real indegenious fighter project, I think that this was a great experience for us.....
Even the Chinese had to struggle a lot with earlier indegenious fighters before coming up with J 10 , without much hassle.
The germans took a huge R and D to create Me 262.
Our people were trying to make a fourth gen fighter with 2/3 of the required funding 15 years too late....

 

[SQ8]

Your post seems a little foolish since India has not till date selected a US fighter plane..

But you have selected a French one...
However his assumption that the block 52's were reduced due to "stoic" personnel is incorrect.
The whole PAF induction plan took a hit after the 2005 earthquake...
however that is beyond the scope of this topic.

The problem with the Tejas is simple.. its the right thing.. just late.
the IAF has moved beyond it, to better things.. and in a more fluid plan.
What the tejas will serve as now ... apart from being a good second line backbone.. is a project record of what to do .. and what not to do.

 

[sancho]

I wouldn't say that a light category fighter with RCS 2 m2, such awesome avionics and other components is a failiure

If it would have that kind of RCS it would be a failure, but I didn't commented on LCA but on DRDOs developments for the project.

Engine is only one component, there are thousands of others which need to be integrated and developed before the plane can take flight..........
And considering this was only our first real indegenious fighter project, I think that this was a great experience for us.....
Even the Chinese had to struggle a lot with earlier indegenious fighters before coming up with J 10 , without much hassle.
The germans took a huge R and D to create Me 262.
Our people were trying to make a fourth gen fighter with 2/3 of the required funding 15 years too late....

The same old excuses, either we did it for the first time, or we had too less money, or the US sanctions, but the problem is, none of these reasons caused the management failures of DRDO!
It was their ego that made them develop things alone that they couldn't do and that they bound without any alternatives to the project. They failed in all these fields and that caused all the problems in an otherwise good and important project!

 

[Jon Snow]

Don't think that's the case, IAF has constantly changed it's requirement over the years, it wanted a different aircraft in 90s whereas it now wants a different aircraft. The problem was that they ordered maruti-800 & now needs an overhaul to make it a ferrari........

IAF only changed requirements when they no longer make do with limited requirements. The LCA was initially supposed to enter IAF service in late 90s(that was the promise made by DRDO in the begining - i.e. the mid 80s) and the IAF gave requirements accordingly, however then the LCA got delayed by more than a decade so obviously the IAF requirements also changed. You cant blame the IAF for changing requirements as these requirements are based on threat perception of the 90s and the plane is coming in the 2015. The requirements of any air force are constantly evolving (therefore all planes in any air force need constant upgradation), if a certain amount of time passes then you just cant make do with previous assessments of requirements.
The DRDO is also to blame for this - they delay a project by 15 years and expect the Air Force to take it in without IAF asking for any changes, and then blame the IAF for further delays.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

source: july2012 Geopolitics mag

 

[subincb]

http://www.astramwp.com/adminpanel/products/1340011618_180612_IER_InitiationReport.pdf

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of
AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on
Tejas Mark 2 as Well
Posted on: July 23, 2012
The state-
run Defence Research and Development
Organization ( DRDO) have received
sanctions to pursue the second phase of
AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning and
Control System) programme. In a recent
report, DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat has
stated that the project will be called
AEW&CS India and the requisite sanctions
have been granted for the same. Besides, the
homegrown AESA radar will also be
integrated into the Tejas Mark II LCA.
According to DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat,
the AEW&CS project will be developed like
the three Phalcon AEW&C systems acquired
from Israel. Once the full clearance is
acquired, DRDO will be selecting a platform
based upon the radar configuration. DRDO
indicated that the full clearance from the
government is imminent since sanctions
have been given.
Regarding the DRDO strategy, the indigenous
Airborne Warning & Control System
(AWACS) capabilities will be developed
through a two pronged approach. The first
phase will involve the mounting of the
already developed radar system onto the
Embraer aircraft from Brazil. The first of the
three Embraer aircraft will be in India by
this month end.
DRDO Chief Saraswat stated that the first
phase is going smoothly the radar system
will be integrated on the first Embraer
aircraft this month. He added that dummy
radar has already been integrated in Brazil
on the platform and DRDO is satisfied with
all parameters and integration activities of
aircraft. Basically, the first phase of the
AWACS will have surveillance capabilities in
limited sectors with limited endurance
capabilities.
Since two more Embraer aircraft will come
to India next year, the indigenous radars are
also getting ready for integration on them.
DRDO has indicated that the AWACS project
is its priority and that the three Embraer
aircraft with the AWACS systems will be
completely operational by 2014-15,
according to DRDO.
Regarding the AEW&CS India project, DRDO
indicated that it will be developing a
complete 360 degree surveillance system.
The technology which has been realized for
the AWACS programme will be directly
applicable in the second phase of the project.
However, the configuration will be to ensure
that there is 360 degree coverage. Unlike the
phase one system with limited endurance,
this will have larger power and reach in
terms of the surveillance capability.
DRDO Chief VK Saraswat has also divulged
into the details of the indigenously
developed Active Electronically Scanned
Array (AESA) radar in the AEW&CS project.
Hailing the radar as the one the best in the
world, DRDO chief said that it can capture
images and send to the ground control
centers besides incorporating all the features
of an airborne surveillance system. It has
unmatchable resolution, performance and
electronic warfare capability.
The AESA radar is also expected to be
integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA
besides other programmes. DRDO Chief
added that the work is already on and the
Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA
radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the
TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the
same. Apparently, it is now possible to
configure small as well as large AESA radar.
The advantage of AESA is that more power
can be derived if you increase the numbers
of TR modules. DRDO’s AESA radar will be of
same size and volume of the present radar
integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work
starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old
radar will be simply replaced by the
indigenous AESA radar.
DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well

 

[Nishan_101]

In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
Don't mind.

 

[subincb]

In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
Don't mind.

How many Gripen NG you know are inducted in any airforce??

 

[Jon Snow]

In the absence of LCA I think the IAF should go for 100 Grippen NGs as they are quite good and can provide the capability they require. I would like to say one thing again there would be 50 EF-2000 other than 200 Rafaels.
Don't mind.

You're probably right - India might not have a choice in the matter as well. We need a small, yet potent fighter which we hope to get in the Tejas MK2, but going by recent news that even the MK1 is only going to be ready by 2015 - I have lost a lot of faith in the program - When will MK2 first fly? and after first flight there will be hundreds if not thousands of test flights and then IOC and then FOC followed by production - if the project gets delayed even by a couple of years the IAF might have no option but to go for the Gripen. We cant just order more rafales or sukhois because we need a low maintenance, single engined fighter. Already the IAF has far too many twin engine fighters in the sukhoi, Rafales, mig 29s , and later PAK FA, the only single engine fighter remaining soon will be the mirage 2000 and the IAF cannot afford to fly a fleet with all heavies. This is the reason why the Tejas is so important but if it continues to dissapoint, the IAF will have no choice but to go for a different single engine, cheap to operate fighter and the only one meeting this requirement is the Gripen NG

 

[subincb]

You're probably right - India might not have a choice in the matter as well. We need a small, yet potent fighter which we hope to get in the Tejas MK2, but going by recent news that even the MK1 is only going to be ready by 2015 - I have lost a lot of faith in the program - When will MK2 first fly? and after first flight there will be hundreds if not thousands of test flights and then IOC and then FOC followed by production - if the project gets delayed even by a couple of years the IAF might have no option but to go for the Gripen. We cant just order more rafales or sukhois because we need a low maintenance, single engined fighter. Already the IAF has far too many twin engine fighters in the sukhoi, Rafales, mig 29s , and later PAK FA, the only single engine fighter remaining soon will be the mirage 2000 and the IAF cannot afford to fly a fleet with all heavies. This is the reason why the Tejas is so important but if it continues to dissapoint, the IAF will have no choice but to go for a different single engine, cheap to operate fighter and the only one meeting this requirement is the Gripen NG

Gripen NG is not gonna be ready until 2017 as their initial estimate and recently I read somewhere its gonna be 2020. By then for sure Tejas -II will be up and running. BVR, Wake penetration and most of the nagging issues are gonna be done at Tejas mark I itself. Only AESA which is under development might be a problem and since it may just be antennae change with the MMR in production Tejas(not the elta 2032 processor but MMR-III which is getting ready), shouldn't be a problem. We mostly will pick IRST off the self