HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[1000VA]

India's Tejas fighter to get Derby missiles

By Arie Egozi

A contract to integrate Rafael's Derby medium-range air-air missile with India's Tejas light combat aircraft will be signed soon, according to industry sources.

Delivery of the missiles is expected from the second half of 2012, following the final phase of integration tests that are planned for early next year.

The active radar- and infrared-guided Derby, which provides an all-weather, beyond visual-range capability, has previously been acquired for the Indian navy's British Aerospace-built Sea Harrier FRS51 fighters. Fourteen aircraft have been modified to use the weapon, said Indian sources.

The Derby missile can be fired in lock-on before launch mode for short-range engagements, or in lock-on after launch mode for use against medium-range targets.

India's air force has so far signed for 40 production examples of the single-engined Tejas, but the service could eventually acquire up to 100 more in an improved Mk II configuration. The service is now evaluating more Israeli-made systems for the fighter, including additional weapons.

The Indian navy also could buy 60 of the Aeronautical Development Agency-designed Tejas.

The Derby contract is an example of the huge potential market that Rafael is trying to exploit in India. Company sources have described the nation as its current first priority, due to the size and diversity of its requirements.

 

[sancho]

thanks a lot guys for the information...!!!!
can u just tell me which one has a better and powerful engine .....???
engine really matters a lot!!!!!!

Engine is just one part, the weight of the fighter is important in that regard as well and just like drag and as it seems, the latter is a problem for Tejas.

Tejas MK1 - GE404 IN 20 ~55kN dry thrust / 85kN AB thrust
Gripen C/D - Volvo RM12 ~55kN dry thrust / 80kN AB thrust

The payload is limited, due to the fact that the MK1 turned out to be heavier than initially planed, but with any new batch or upgrade, this will be improved anyway. The more limiting factor is the limited number of hardpoints, because even with more payload, it couldn't carry more weapons.

 

[mastaan]

who the hell says so???????
either it will be the chinese..or the pakistanis...which is ever expected...so chill buddy...the mk 2 version of the lca tejas may also be a near 5th generation aircraft..with better..aviaonics,engine,stealth capabilities,radars .....and many more things!!!
chinese and pakistanis..have always been anti indians...so y do u even give it a thought....they could have even say lca tejas to be a 1st generation world war 1 aircraft...lolzzzzzzzzz........so would the world believe them...????

Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st!

Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet...

And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!

and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!

About Pakistan's anti-India nature, while I am a new member, i think I have seen it enough already that people with only hatred exist on both sides... So you will point at them and some from there will point at you... What value does it add... nothing. Let's contribute in a way where some illiterates like me could also learn a bit... Looking forward to my time here, lest am kicked our earlier

Cheers!

 

[Jon Snow]

personally would have preferred the r 77m on the tejas instead of the derby, we are going for the easier option here(integration wise) and hoping that the astra is ready before long, if there are some delays in the astra program we will have a fighter seriously lacking in the bvr arena

 

[Ghoster]

Both are in the same class, offers comparable techs and capabilities, both are cost-effective and useful in A2A and A2G. The slight advantages the Gripen has are more payload (~ 5t vs 3.5t), MTOW (14t vs 13.3t), maneuverability with canards, but mainly that it is developed and operational since years, while LCA MK1 is only on the way to serial production state and will take some time to mature.

Doesn't LEVCONS give advantage to LCA in maneuverability.

 

[sancho]

Doesn't LEVCONS give advantage to LCA in maneuverability.

Hi, only NLCA will get LEVCONS to improve the low speed handling and AoA at carrier operations.

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st!

Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet...

And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!

Well, not really. The time when people used to restlessly whine about LCA project has long gone. But you can't blame cynics. India is full of them.

Coming to your objections, they are outdated now. There has been tremendous improvement in avionics, mission software and system integration technology in last decade. IAF's interest in upgraded LCA-MKII shows that LCA is a matured platform. So, next logical step is to move towards AMCA and DRDO has begun the process.

And mark my words, people will keep saying LCA is a failure even after AMCA flies. Sometimes, I think media management/censoring like those in USA & China helps a lot in keeping focus on innovation.

and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!

It depends. India can't censor media like they do in China, USA and "manage" negative press that LCA gets often.

I think you might not be aware of this but Boeing, LM spend a lot of money on "managing" positive press about their products. Indian companies like HAL,DRDO since they are PSU's are not allowed to carry such practices. Now its upto you how you take it, good or bad, but this is how it works. If you don't like negative press around LCA, then ask yourself - "Are you ready that they use your tax-money to manage the press through $$ leverage?". Well, I prefer negative press than wasting my money on paying those corrupt media.

At the end of day, HAL/DRDO are doing a job better than what IAI in Israel has done(considering IAI has free access to DARPA's labs in USA). Press that LCA gets is different issue. Its more about "image-making".

For example, Gripen is only 25% swedish(compared to over 50% Indian content in Arjun MBT) but still noone blames Gripen as "imported aircraft". Noone says that american space shuttle is a copied German technology. Well, as I said, its about image-making. And, still noone knows how much of J-20 is imported becoz China "manages" press. But USA manages press far better through a well-established generation old corporate-press nexus.

USA and China have made up their minds about "managing" press. They don't see anything wrong or immoral in paid corporate press. Surely, HAL/DRDO are behind in this area of managing press. But as I said, are we Indians ready for this? Becoz we often shy away from things which are immoral.

But again, apart from all this question of morality or immorality for that matter, there is not a single person in Indian media, who is technically qualified to give a rational opinion on a military fighter aircraft development. So, forget about even paying them because they would still suck.

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Nice pic of LCA there in flightglobal.

Indian media lacks far behind in terms of quality and merit despite their tall claims of self-proclaimed expertise over technical & defence matters.

 

[RPK]

Coming soon, LCA's naval variant - www.daily.bhaskar.com

Coming soon, LCA's naval variant


Bangalore: The maiden flight of the naval variant of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will take to the skies in July, exactly a year after it rolled out from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's (HAL's) Aircraft Research and Design Centre hangar in Bangalore.

"We would be conducting the first flight of the LCA Naval Prototype-1 (NP1) – a trainer aircraft -- in July. The aircraft is currently undergoing a series of ground tests, and preparations are on for the flight certification which is mandatory before the first flight," said Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief controller R&D (Aeronautics and Service Interaction), Prahlada.

He said all agencies involved in the programme, like the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), HAL and the certifying agencies including Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) and Director General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA), are extremely cautious about ensuring that the first flight is carried out without any hassles.

"Being the first flight of the LCA naval programme we are extremely careful. We want to ensure that everything is put in place before the first flight and that the programme is as successful as the Indian Air Force (IAF) version which has had no accidents since it started flight tests on January 4, 2001," he said.

The LCA's IAF version has an impeccable record of completing over 1,600 flights without any incidents. The LCA NP-1 is different from its IAF counterpart. It has a new, stronger and longer landing gear, an arrester hook for ship deck landing, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision to facilitate landing on aircraft carriers, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems.

The LCA NP1 will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine and is specifically designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing, with high landing loads compared to its IAF counterpart.

The Navy has placed an order for six LCA Navy aircraft and is expected to replace the depleting Sea Harrier squadron. The LCA Naval variants will operate alongside the MiG-29Ks by 2014.

 

[desimorty]

The Derby AAM is a great choice, it provides what the R-77 doesn't.
Short range engagements
medium range engagements
lock on after launch
low weight

by contrast the R-77 onliy offers medium range engagements, with a slightly better range.

if you notice, even the Astra is lighter then the R-77/ AMRAAM and SD-10
lighter missiles allows you to carry more.

even if the Tejas doesn't have multiple hard points, dual rail launchers can be employed, like with the harrier.

If you notice the weight, with comparable missiles
Russian R-77= 175 - 226 kg (the ones the InAF operate are R-77M1 and weigh 226 kg) Keep in mind the biggest advantage to the R-77 has always been range.
American AMRAAM= 152 kg later variants are more at 200kg and offer 100 KMand the Pakistani's have this missile on the F-16's!
Japanese AAM-4=based on the AMRAAM weighs in at 222 kg, with a range of 100km headon
Chinese SD-10=at 199KG with a 100KM range, unique aspect is that this missile offers both active and passive seeker.
Indian ASTRA=154 kg with a 80-100km head on.

so basically, it is reasonable to assume that for every 200 KG, a missile gets a 100 KM, more or less. The Russians, Indians and perhaps possibly the Chinese have the best solid fuels. So they get more per weight then the other guys.

However, on needs to look into the rail launchers as well.

Currently the Harriers can carry Derby on dual rail launchers. Since each Derby weighs 100KG and after that there is no need for short range missiles as well.
The Derby will allow the Tejas mission profile to change. Basically during a mission, the Tejas could carry Derby on the outermost pylons since it weighs as much as a short range AAM. So doing both air to air or air to ground, the Tejas has 6 hard points available and saves 200kg.
Which doesn't seem much, but you just eliminated the need for BVR fighters as escorts during air to ground and most importantly for a naval Tejas, 200 kg saves a lot more.

 

[udiptoghsh]

Buddy, I cant chill now, I need explaanation of bolded part seroiously...IMO, it will never become an 5th gen aircraft, unless integration of latest tech with a totally new structral design will be implemented.

so thats wat i said..it will introduce more modern and better stuffs to make it a 5th gen aircraft..i never said the lca tejas mk1 with the same stuffs will be a 5th genration aircraft...it will not have much of a structural change cause the sealthyness of the aircraft will partly depend on the sructure..and mostly on the component........ that it will b made frm..which would actually b able to absorb radar's signals...!!!!!

 

[udiptoghsh]

Ahem... Did I hear a Generation 5??? Bloody hell, get lost before i pick up the st!

Even if it is 4.5, then lets scrap MRCA ... why go for a Rafale or EF, when you already have such strong Aircraft in your inventory... The fact of the matter is that it is not an established fighter as yet (Personally, I believe it is far from it)... It is the very first fighter that we are trying to develop and it has taken far more time than what anyone would have anticipated... So, in a way, it has earned a lot of ridicule that comes to its makers and thus, it could do away with a lot of Jazz that you talked about... It has still some time to prove it's worth (of which genre it is), forget about exports for the time being... Let it first be inducted in IAF and see some actual pilot hands... In addition to all of that, if you still have to import the engine of the plane (from GE), and I am sure some avionics would also be imported, then you really can't claim a success as yet...

And, if we want to succeed, we gotta stay open to some criticism (I know some of it could be baseless, but then that happens from both sides and that is better left ignored) as well.. After all, everyone learns from their mistakes and we are no different!

and about China... Let's not talk about them... I know some will say they copied and all... I don't care about that.. They have the machines, they are well ahead on scalability and transformation speed and thats that!

About Pakistan's anti-India nature, while I am a new member, i think I have seen it enough already that people with only hatred exist on both sides... So you will point at them and some from there will point at you... What value does it add... nothing. Let's contribute in a way where some illiterates like me could also learn a bit... Looking forward to my time here, lest am kicked our earlier

Cheers!

its already a 4.5th generation aircraft....nd the mk3 version will b made of radar signal absorbing components...so it will actually make it stealthy..apart frm the stealth its get frm its design alone....and by the time the mk3 version comes up..the flight controls..avionics..engine....payload...technology....will be equal to any fifth generation aircraft...!!!!!!!!

 

[udiptoghsh]

Oh yeah.. right.. its only been one way traffic..
Indians have been all praise with garlands and coconuts.

may b u dont know we common indians actually do not have any hatred against u guys...even i support pakistan on many reasons ....but the thing is that ministers..and politicians of both sides are the evil in developing hatred among us...shunnn them...!!!!
its my dream to see india and pakistan to b a single country once again........!!!!
the hatred i showed in my last post...was towards ur politicians who actually increases the gap between us...nd not our comon pakistani brothers and sisters.....!!!!!

 

[sancho]

Currently the Harriers can carry Derby on dual rail launchers. Since each Derby weighs 100KG and after that there is no need for short range missiles as well.
The Derby will allow the Tejas mission profile to change. Basically during a mission, the Tejas could carry Derby on the outermost pylons since it weighs as much as a short range AAM. So doing both air to air or air to ground, the Tejas has 6 hard points available and saves 200kg.
Which doesn't seem much, but you just eliminated the need for BVR fighters as escorts during air to ground and most importantly for a naval Tejas, 200 kg saves a lot more.

As you can see on the pictures, the dual rail carries MR and SR missiles, not MR alone and why should there be no need for SR missiles anymore?
Also derby weighs 118Kg, western SR missiles just weighs around 90Kg and if the following is correct, LCAs external hardpoint carries only loads of 150Kg, which means 2 x derbys and the additional pylon weight would be too high for such a config:

http://www.lca-tejas.org/weapons.html


The only ways to increase weapon load would be wingtip stations, but according to some talks during Aero India with officials, that would have required a re-design of the wings. The other way is to get rid of as much fuel tanks as possible, by increasing the internal fuel. That is what they want to do with the MK2, so in any mission where LCA MK1 needs 2 x fuel tanks, MK2 just need 1 (centerline), which makes wingstations free for additional weapon loads.

Btw are these missiles on the Sea Harrier derby missiles?

 

[MumbaiIndians]

There are not enough hard-points for weapons load because the always-lagging IAF thinkers gave these requirements during 1990 to the designers of LCA. Now, suddenly IAF is realising their mistakes of misjuding their own projections of evolving air-force strengths & combat aircraft technology profiles in the region.

Mark my words, after 15 years, IAF will blame AMCA for not being fulfilling their needs. That's because the current limit of 25 tons which IAF has imposed on AMCA keeps the whole programme very limited and small. After 15 years, under 25-Ton class aircrafts will be totally outdated. IAF is making one more blunder by capping the capabilities of AMCA.

IAF should immediately revise their requirements and order AMCA to be atleast 35 Tons class aircraft, even if it means a delay of 3 more years in redesign phase. It will save them decades in future.

IAF types have this misunderstanding = They think "stealth" is all about making "small" and light/medium aircrafts! Someone explain these technically incompetent idiots that big and heavy class fighters can be stealth too. Its all about concepts, not size or weight. So, they want to keep AMCA outdated by forcing it to be below 25-Ton category, just because of their obsession(acquired from reading magazines from where they catch ideas). What a blunder!

Wait 15 years, IAF will ask for scrapping of their own suggested AMCA design and will ask for AMCA-MkII and they will totally reject original AMCA requirements which they are proposing right now.

History will repeat and India will go for import of $30 Billion once more.