Gujarat Riots 2002

[Nilgiri]

Well this thread pretty much went where I expected it to....glad I stayed out of it.

 

[Hellfire]

@Joe Shearer

Was trying to give the member a cue to work on, when I touched upon the Services Regulation of Pakistan Army, to indicate a lack of disinterest in discussing the self 'enabling' undertaken by Pakistan Army at various points of time by amending Article 245 of their constitution.

I was wondering why I ignore his posts (not ignore the posters by exercising the option), something told me I did. Now I recall, he is just a troll-bait.

 

[911]

But why we got 36 planes and paid way more than what the Congress had negotiated for 126?

This belongs to the demontization jumla school of saffron mathematics.

Cheers, Doc

As far as I know it has something to do with certain special modification and that although is an open secret, Indian government officially can't declare it. Congress is harming bilateral relations by making it political.

I don't remember anything about EMVs

early stages of Alzheimer's

Ok.

 

[padamchen]

If you are trolling, then so be it. And if you are genuinely asking the question, then I would suggest a very serious legwork be undertaken by you. It is a question of joining the dots which lie scattered in public domain.

I thought you were ignoring me bete.

What brought that happy state of affairs to a smashing halt?

Cheers, Doc

As far as I know it has something to do with certain special modification and that although is an open secret, Indian government officially can't declare it. Congress is harming bilateral relations by making it political.




Ok.

Must be some real space age mods man.

Does the plane tramsformerize into 4 baby Rafales once airborne?

Coz minus the money (it's only ours, can and will be earned again ...) that's what it would take at the very minimum to meet our longstanding stated needs of the quickly slipping airforce.

Cheers, Doc

I don't remember anything about EMVs; not my subject, not my conspiracy.

About surgical strike proofs, the boot is on the other foot. I was given proofs myself within 12 hours. So the question of asking for proofs doesn't arise. Several details were wrong, because my informant's friends themselves didn't know the details till a day later; it was the second informant, about 36 hours after the strike, who had the complete picture.

What I did say about surgical strikes was that it was not unknown practice before the Modi government came in, and that it was sad that the government was so obsessed with publicity as to mount the pageantry that it did.

Like EVMs, too, I don't remember even having commented on the Rafale deal directly. What I said about that deal continues to be relevant even today, because it related to that ridiculous selection of Anil Ambani's company as the offset partner for Rafale.

I am wondering if you are on drugs, or if you are in the early stages of Alzheimer's. Whatever it is, it prevents you from remembering who said what, so some urgent action on your part seems to be called for.



Your views as an ex-serviceman of long standing and great reputation must be valued.



'Was', a long, long time ago. Now they negotiate directly with movements violating law and order, to the extent that they hand out financial incentives for those concerned to leave.



A dimwitted remark.

The detachment was asked to report to the civil authorities in Ahmedabad.

Try not to keep digging around for oddities that you can exclaim over; they don't exist, except for an armchair critic with nothing better to say other than that you are surprised that this, that and the other were not done.

Your appreciation of the British Army, that protects you against terrorists, is admirable, but it follows the same rules. In case you hadn't noticed, even when they march for the ceremony of the Trooping of the Colours, they are 'empowered' to do that by a policeman on horseback who precedes them.




Not that it matters, considering the amateur who is trying to show off in this exchange how much he knows, but the CM also does not have the authority to empower the Army to act; it has to be by a designated magistrate.



No, YOU listen, and stop the play-acting. You are an amateur, with absolutely no background worth the mention to comment on what is or is not the procedure.



The services of the Army were sought, these services were made available, the troops were flown to Ahmedabad. It is clear, as I had said, and not an act of skilful detection on your part, that there was either an accidental or a deliberate failure on the part of the civilian authorities to link up and to provide the detailed, on the ground support that was needed.



Try not to rave; the (painful) count was less than 800. There have been far worse incidents in the world, in India, even in Pakistan, or East Pakistan, to be precise. And leave the fanciful language for a more appropriate occasion.




Stop imagining; it isn't your imagination that determines reality. You have been told twice over, by me and then by @hellfire, what the status is in Gujarat and if you choose to conjure up a picture out of your own imagination and insist that is real, nobody can do anything about it. Except you; try a cold shower.



The Pakistan Army does a lot of things that the Indian Army would never do.



Once you have made up your mind whether to spend other people's time on describing your personal emotions, and whether you laughed or you cried, or just swelled up in indignation, do let the world know. Until then, can it be spared the excruciating experience of being swept up in your stream of consciousness?



We would have spared you the embarrassment, but if you insist on humiliating yourself, there is nothing much to be done.

@M. Sarmad
@padamchen
@Rusty

This is the kind of asinine attitude that has led to dozens of sensible Indian members leaving permanently. I was the recipient of some undeserved praise a few messages back; sadly, my own reaction to the falsification of facts, to the insistence of an imaginary presence due to deduction from first principles - there must have been an Army presence because Gujarat is a border state, to an attempt to equate the operating procedures of a civilian ruled Indian Army with the self-administering Pakistan Army, to a loud, insistent braying out of a point of view that is based on a need to say something insulting and negative about an entire body of men - "...the tentacles of Hindu terrorist organization like RSS have reached the Indian army power corridors as well..." - would be annoyance at the thick-headed and ignorant approach of the member.

And just to put a line under the whole situation, these are comments by one who prefers to skulk in comparative peace enforced by a different Army from the two that he has taken up as his area of expertise for the hour.

I can't think of "dozens" to be honest.

Maybe I'm more difficult to impress or you're being nostalgic.

Most of the crap they cleaned out actively, I wouldn't be seen socially with in the real world.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

I thought you were ignoring me bete.

What brought that happy state of affairs to a smashing halt?

Cheers, Doc



Must be some real space age mods man.

Does the plane tramsformerize into 4 baby Rafales once airborne?

Coz minus the money (it's only ours, can and will be earned again ...) that's what it would take at the very minimum to meet our longstanding stated needs of the quickly slipping airforce.

Cheers, Doc



I can't think of "dozens" to be honest.

Maybe I'm more difficult to impress or you're being nostalgic.

Most of the crap they cleaned out actively, I wouldn't be seen socially with in the real world.

Cheers, Doc

You have a point. Perhaps a dozen together. Incidentally, there are still some of your socially not fit present among the Indian membership.

@Joe Shearer

Was trying to give the member a cue to work on, when I touched upon the Services Regulation of Pakistan Army, to indicate a lack of disinterest in discussing the self 'enabling' undertaken by Pakistan Army at various points of time by amending Article 245 of their constitution.

I was wondering why I ignore his posts (not ignore the posters by exercising the option), something told me I did. Now I recall, he is just a troll-bait.

He is, a particularly low-grade one, with weird ethno-national theories. I felt awful when I saw you interacting with him, and read his puerile responses. But thank you for keeping the record straight (for the life of me, I can't remember the exact document, the exact procedure, the minute detail, that you do).

Please don't let this discourage you.

 

[GHALIB]

well as per documentary it all started after the Ayodiya Bus incident .

It started because of burning of a train bogie full of Hindu pilgrims returning from ayodhya at godhara railway station by rioters . All those died in this incident were Hindus from Gujrat.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As far as I know it has something to do with certain special modification and that although is an open secret, Indian government officially can't declare it. Congress is harming bilateral relations by making it political.

India-specific weapons systems.

Ok.

Reading the discussion a second time in the light of day, I owe you an apology for the personal remarks (not the other points). I am sorry.

If you are trolling, then so be it. And if you are genuinely asking the question, then I would suggest a very serious legwork be undertaken by you. It is a question of joining the dots which lie scattered in public domain.

There are two parts to the discussion: one relating to the price paid for the deal and the underpinnings of that prize, the other related to the very strange selection of a failed businessman who failed in everything he touched to be the offset partner for Dassault. While I acknowledge the discomfort felt by some of us regarding the first point, my own scepticism is related to the choice of partner by the French company.

 

[Hellfire]

Please don't let this discourage you.

Does not discourage me. I was impressed by what Aamir Hussain (I hope I spelled it right) posted the other day. Still trying to get the record straight for the Pakistani friends here, so that they take a reasonable look to discern facts from "facts", although, always am tempted to allow misperceptions to float freely. Nothing like information modulation affecting your own population. But, then the issue crops up that there remains a very short distance from being stupid to acting stupid, and the ramifications are not limited to them itself.

There are two parts to the discussion: one relating to the price paid for the deal and the underpinnings of that prize, the other related to the very strange selection of a failed businessman who failed in everything he touched to be the offset partner for Dassault. While I acknowledge the discomfort felt by some of us regarding the first point, my own scepticism is related to the choice of partner by the French company.

That, the choice of partner, is Dassault's wish. Even HAL has tied up with Boeing for the F-18, an organization that has been a cheat.

I have a very detailed information on their role in escalating price of Su-30MKI to Rs 150 Crores more than what purchase from OEM would have cost, inclusive of the India specific adaptations in the airframe. Suffice to say, heard it from the horse's mouth ... how, a Su-30MKI is supposed to be assembled in 30 odd days (can't remember the original figure now, posted it somewhere long back and have forgotten) while HAL takes more than 3 months (earliest) working 24 hours (on paper). The Russians, if required to crash the project, do it in 17 days. Even Modi can not do anything to the DPSU-trade union nexus as they have a voting bloc. The only thing that he could do, was to open up the defence sector to Civil Establishment. And the result is there, see the LCA progressing at a faster rate, as HAL faces the prospect of being driven out of the market and sees the talented young blood being poached by the civil firms to set up their businesses.

As for the price, dots are available. Intelligence was always about joining them

I thought you were ignoring me bete.

What brought that happy state of affairs to a smashing halt?

Cheers, Doc

I ignore your rants and frankly illogical posts. I do not ignore anyone generally, until and unless they prove themselves emphatically as one who can drag down a conversation to level of idiocy. There are about 02 of those on this forum, and even their posts are read by me, only to learn from that.

And as for bete, am not that young, have a beard predominantly white when not shaved

 

[padamchen]

Does not discourage me. I was impressed by what Aamir Hussain (I hope I spelled it right) posted the other day. Still trying to get the record straight for the Pakistani friends here, so that they take a reasonable look to discern facts from "facts", although, always am tempted to allow misperceptions to float freely. Nothing like information modulation affecting your own population. But, then the issue crops up that there remains a very short distance from being stupid to acting stupid, and the ramifications are not limited to them itself.



That, the choice of partner, is Dassault's wish. Even HAL has tied up with Boeing for the F-18, an organization that has been a cheat.

I have a very detailed information on their role in escalating price of Su-30MKI to Rs 150 Crores more than what purchase from OEM would have cost, inclusive of the India specific adaptations in the airframe. Suffice to say, heard it from the horse's mouth ... how, a Su-30MKI is supposed to be assembled in 30 odd days (can't remember the original figure now, posted it somewhere long back and have forgotten) while HAL takes more than 3 months (earliest) working 24 hours (on paper). The Russians, if required to crash the project, do it in 17 days. Even Modi can not do anything to the DPSU-trade union nexus as they have a voting bloc. The only thing that he could do, was to open up the defence sector to Civil Establishment. And the result is there, see the LCA progressing at a faster rate, as HAL faces the prospect of being driven out of the market and sees the talented young blood being poached by the civil firms to set up their businesses.

As for the price, dots are available. Intelligence was always about joining them



I ignore your rants and frankly illogical posts. I do not ignore anyone generally, until and unless they prove themselves emphatically as one who can drag down a conversation to level of idiocy. There are about 02 of those on this forum, and even their posts are read by me, only to learn from that.

And as for bete, am not that young, have a beard predominantly white when not shaved

You could try hair dye.

I just treat each silver as a trophy of the illogical time I've spent observing logical kids like you.

And moved on.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Sam.]

I ignore your rants and frankly illogical posts. I do not ignore anyone generally, until and unless they prove themselves emphatically as one who can drag down a conversation to level of idiocy. There are about 02 of those on this forum, and even their posts are read by me, only to learn from that.

And as for bete, am not that young, have a beard predominantly white when not shaved

Doc has gone mad in last few days , he drank the Rahul Gandhi cool-aid at Delhi. HAL is a symbol of what was wrong with license raj and it must be put to bed.

 

[Hellfire]

That wasn't specifically for you but you did believe EMVs were hacked and other conspiracy theories such as asking for surgical strike proofs, Rafale scam which now is being debunked.

Incorrect, he never claimed any of these.

You could try hair dye.

I just treat each silver as a trophy of the illogical time I've spent observing logical kids like you.

And moved on.

Cheers, Doc

I rest my case.

Have a great day.

Doc has gone mad in last few days , he drank the Rahul Gandhi cool-aid at Delhi. HAL is a symbol of what was wrong with license raj and it must be put to bed.

No amount of baiting will make me spell it out for anyone - either demonetization or Rafale.

As a rule, one should only prod a person to deduce, assuming the person has the intellect to understand. If the same fails, it remains a waste of effort to undertake the same, as either the intellect or the will, is apparently lacking.

Will someone ask Rahul Gandhi, where were his concerns for Indian Security and propriety when his party, when in power, to win elections, cut the Kerosene authorization to soldier in high altitudes in winters in Kashmir to 50% to finance their Food Subsidy 'jumla', which, sans safeguards, merely resulted in greater leakages and financial burden on the tax payers?

 

[padamchen]

Doc has gone mad in last few days , he drank the Rahul Gandhi cool-aid at Delhi. HAL is a symbol of what was wrong with license raj and it must be put to bed.

Bhai you do realise that there is something terribly smelly here?

You think Rahul is a fool?

You think the Congress is an iimmature baccha in politics?

Everyone made a killing in demontization. So you will never hear an expose on how it's been the biggest most brazen scam in the history of independent India.

But Rafales is here to stay.

And Modi is running.

Jet Lee comes up with crass communal statements in Parliament like Rahul lies 5 times a day.

Public sab dekh rahi hai bhai.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Hellfire]

However you spin it, it a utter failure of Indian army to protect its citizens. You will never find Pakistan army having to rely and wait for civilian assets in their response to terrorist acts anywhere in Pakistan.

The Pakistan Army does a lot of things that the Indian Army would never do.

Your reply above to the 'insightful' observations as highlighted, needs to be revised a bit more. Maybe a lot of things to 'all things'?

I doubt you will find a precedent as under:

Minister defends his presence at Chinese consulate following attack

source: https://www.dawn.com/news/1447332

In light of the above perhaps, the member should be read at face value in his recent posts.


Since the presence of a minister without due sanitization of the site, an unprecedented occurrence anywhere in the world, merely serves to lend credence to claims of attack being planned by interests which were not necessarily inimical to the state.

One need only recall the video, claimed fake, posted here (and since deleted), of what appeared to be a Pakistani soldier claiming that Army got TTP to hold the GoP to ransom this time round. Of course, just because I refrained from commenting and posting it across forum, because it remains their internal affair, does not mean that it was never noticed.

 

[Nilgiri]

The Pakistan Army does a lot of things that the Indian Army would never do.

...yeah like suspend the constitution and overthrow elected govts every so many years

 

[JohnWick]

There is more.

1. The Chief Minister, whose lordly inactivity allowed the bigots loose for three days, showed not a morsel of remorse;
2. The police - the bulk of them; there were honourable exceptions - blandly said that they did what they could, and the Army didn't turn up in time;
3. Lt. Gen. Zameer Shah testifies that the Army was there on the second day, and was left high and dry by the state government failing to provide transport from the airport (the Indian Army doesn't have much of a presence in that state);
4. The courts took up the matter, and punished some of the ring-leaders, while others were exonerated due to the vast number of witnesses who mysteriously 'turned hostile';
5. The Supreme Court stepped in and appointed a Special Investigation Team, under R. K. Raghavan, whom I personally respect very much. However, his team contained Gujarat police officers including the infamous Geeta Johri, herself one of the accused. Anyone who is surprised that the team found that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute the former Chief Minister may apply for the job of answering letters addressed by children the world over to Santa Claus.
6. Police officers who testified in the media were transferred, suspended and then proceeded against on various trumped up charges;
7. Other police officers who broke ranks on other serious offences were similarly punished.

Modi did nothing criminal; he did something that amounts to betrayal of his oath of office to uphold the Constitution. But that allowed criminals full freedom to brutalise men, women and children.

It is a very shameful act to not even the muslims but even to humanity!

Muslims, Dalits and Chrisitans so badly want a Janaue dhari Brahmin for the next PM for the next term though. These sub groups only want leaders to pamper them with hand outs, that's the only thing that counts. Congress and commies are too subtle and know the fineesse of tackling professional breastbeaters while BJP is uncouth and more of in your face while dealing with them.

Everyone want a leader to pamper them!

The Pakistan Army does a lot of things that the Indian Army would never do.

...yeah like suspend the constitution and overthrow elected govts every so many years

The reason is so simple in india indian army is too weak due strong democracy while in Pak democracy is on its building stage!