Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee visits Baykar UAV facility in Turkey

[Bossman]

At least somebody is using the South African engineers skills but its unfortunate that Pakistan couldn't acquire them.

Pakistan also used South African engineers. Many were living in Pakistan for a while. UAE simply has more more money. However, a sustainable defense industry cannot be created by simply hiring expatriates.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Before I pen these thought please allow me to say that my thoughts are not directed at ANYONE but the gist of the posts that are doing the rounds.
With a few exceptions none of us know what has actually gone on in our defence acquisitions and the thoughts behind it. Those who do keep their mouths tightly shut for fear of betraying Pakistan. There have been instances of people on fora being cpurt martialled abd sent home for a loose off the cuff remark. There have also been instances of Pakistan losing out on lucrative deals due to a loose mouth. But in general:
1. How do we know that all the thought process behind our acquisition sprees have been what you guys have written?
2. What do we actually know about the developments in aviation and defence products by Turkey, Ukraine and South Africa?
3. What do we know( irrefutable facts and not the drivel fed into us by our HARAMI press{please understand the term of Harami in Arabic is that of a thief and I have used it in these terms} about our own finances and more so the greed of our leaders( both military and polity)?
4. Do we understand that the decision of acquiring this or that is not a decision of one man but a group of people who evaluate the equipment? If so are we calling the whole of our armed forces myopic, or there is something more to it than that?
5. PA collaborated with SA on one ofcthe Darter missiles? with Turkey on Milgem and T129, with Mectron Brazil on anARM(Forget the name, with the eventual aim of picking up the Pirhana). How many of these projects have been successful and ongoing and why?
6. What are the impediments of trading with these countries and why do we keep returning to China and now Turkey?
If we amalgamate our thoughts along these lines there is enough material on this board to think put why Pakistan is collaboration shy?
7. What was our own industry like and could it have incorporated the tech we were looking to get?
Lastly a lot is being written on Turkey's progress on Drones. We have a parallel industry and so collaboration my at best be in the field of subassemblies and information gathering and resolution of problems but not whole system.
Please refer to @bilal Khan777posts about Turkish developments and see where we are and why things are being done the way they are. He is turse but the truth comes out of his posts. There is more than 30yrs of full blooded first hand experience talking there.
Like all of you I wish PAKlands the best and I remain a loyal Pakistani. I am also a realist and not unaware of the corruption of our forces as well as polity but to label everyone carte blanche as myopic/nonsincere is very harsh.
Regards to one and all.
A

These questions would all be fair bro if it wasn't for the fact that we ordered VT4s while HIT was under-capacity, or CH-4s when PAC and NESCOM were both developing MALE UAVs, or talk about J-10CEs when we have JF-17 and a NGFA under AZM.

Regarding South Africa, in 2017, they had come to us and signed a MoU to collaborate on defence (with very explicit mentions of ToT) in Pakistan. We didn't do a thing with it, not one thing.

With respect to the members who criticize Turkey, but they're not getting the point. On the one hand, we have Turkey who is investing in original and domestic programs even though (as we claim) they could get everything they want off-the-shelf. On the other hand, we -- with fewer fiscal resources, fewer economic or industrial foundations, and other constraints -- are knee-capping our domestic efforts to import.

I am 100% OK with ignoring Turkey entirely, fine, but then why not properly invest in Pakistani programs and initiatives? Our domestic programs are either inefficient (e.g., al-Khalid), underfunded (e.g., AZM), or collecting dust in shelves because we wanted "mature" imports.

That latter point (knee-capping ourselves) is controversial, but having spoken to Pakistani engineers, many private sector companies, ex-DGDPs, ex-AMs, and a current advisor to the federal government, I am 100% convinced that self-immolation is a thing. In fact, we even had an engineer (messiach) confirm as much re: her proposal to develop gas turbines in Pakistan in the early 1990s.

I get it, we lack feeder industries and critical inputs, ok, then why not invest in those? Our armed forces have enough clout to involve themselves in our economy over real estate and CPEC, but not invest in gas turbines, composites and steel, and semi-conductors? There's something seriously wrong here bro.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Our labor costs and tech is far better... it is the mindset and the inferiority complex of our people. We have far better missiles/jets than the turks ie Shaheens/Nasrs/baburs/raads/JF17B3s yet we as PAKISTANI ourselves do not believe in our systems nor spend the extra hundred millions to market their battle proven capabilities.

It is more a battle of facts and perceptions than capabilities my friend.

I tried hard not to talk, but you are not ahead of us in anything other than certain solid and liquid rocket engine technology. Even nuclear is not a technology but an choise.

You are talking extraordinary nonsense. It is funny that you could have the courage to make a collection from here and there and really make these words.

 

[CriticalThought]

These questions would all be fair bro if it wasn't for the fact that we ordered VT4s while HIT was under-capacity, or CH-4s when PAC and NESCOM were both developing MALE UAVs, or talk about J-10CEs when we have JF-17 and a NGFA under AZM.

Regarding South Africa, in 2017, they had come to us and signed a MoU to collaborate on defence (with very explicit mentions of ToT) in Pakistan. We didn't do a thing with it, not one thing.

With respect to the members who criticize Turkey, but they're not getting the point. On the one hand, we have Turkey who is investing in original and domestic programs even though (as we claim) they could get everything they want off-the-shelf. On the other hand, we -- with fewer fiscal resources, fewer economic or industrial foundations, and other constraints -- are knee-capping our domestic efforts to import.

I am 100% OK with ignoring Turkey entirely, fine, but then why not properly invest in Pakistani programs and initiatives? Our domestic programs are either inefficient (e.g., al-Khalid), underfunded (e.g., AZM), or collecting dust in shelves because we wanted "mature" imports.

That latter point (knee-capping ourselves) is controversial, but having spoken to Pakistani engineers, many private sector companies, ex-DGDPs, ex-AMs, and a current advisor to the federal government, I am 100% convinced that self-immolation is a thing. In fact, we even had an engineer (messiach) confirm as much re: her proposal to develop gas turbines in Pakistan in the early 1990s.

I get it, we lack feeder industries and critical inputs, ok, then why not invest in those? Our armed forces have enough clout to involve themselves in our economy over real estate and CPEC, but not invest in gas turbines, composites and steel, and semi-conductors? There's something seriously wrong here bro.

What is lacking is good primary and secondary education. You need to get that base strong before undergrad and grad education will take off. The best universities have a rigorous process by which they take in the very best of 12th grade pass outs. The best 12th graders from Pakistan leave, never to return.

When you have the leftovers of intellectual competition, it makes sense that top generals don't have much confidence in them. Every single one of the advance programs you know and don't know about, are resourced by foreign PhDs. Local talent is utilized as workers. As far as I know, they are not doing anything innovative, and are not given the mandate of innovation.

Finally, the decision makers are the product of this same system and are intellectually subservient to the West. They are psychologically compromised and don't have the guts to compete with the world. This is where Pakistan is, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Before I pen these thought please allow me to say that my thoughts are not directed at ANYONE but the gist of the posts that are doing the rounds.
With a few exceptions none of us know what has actually gone on in our defence acquisitions and the thoughts behind it. Those who do keep their mouths tightly shut for fear of betraying Pakistan. There have been instances of people on fora being cpurt martialled abd sent home for a loose off the cuff remark. There have also been instances of Pakistan losing out on lucrative deals due to a loose mouth. But in general:
1. How do we know that all the thought process behind our acquisition sprees have been what you guys have written?
2. What do we actually know about the developments in aviation and defence products by Turkey, Ukraine and South Africa?
3. What do we know( irrefutable facts and not the drivel fed into us by our HARAMI press{please understand the term of Harami in Arabic is that of a thief and I have used it in these terms} about our own finances and more so the greed of our leaders( both military and polity)?
4. Do we understand that the decision of acquiring this or that is not a decision of one man but a group of people who evaluate the equipment? If so are we calling the whole of our armed forces myopic, or there is something more to it than that?
5. PA collaborated with SA on one ofcthe Darter missiles? with Turkey on Milgem and T129, with Mectron Brazil on anARM(Forget the name, with the eventual aim of picking up the Pirhana). How many of these projects have been successful and ongoing and why?
6. What are the impediments of trading with these countries and why do we keep returning to China and now Turkey?
If we amalgamate our thoughts along these lines there is enough material on this board to think put why Pakistan is collaboration shy?
7. What was our own industry like and could it have incorporated the tech we were looking to get?
Lastly a lot is being written on Turkey's progress on Drones. We have a parallel industry and so collaboration my at best be in the field of subassemblies and information gathering and resolution of problems but not whole system.
Please refer to @bilal Khan777posts about Turkish developments and see where we are and why things are being done the way they are. He is turse but the truth comes out of his posts. There is more than 30yrs of full blooded first hand experience talking there.
Like all of you I wish PAKlands the best and I remain a loyal Pakistani. I am also a realist and not unaware of the corruption of our forces as well as polity but to label everyone carte blanche as myopic/nonsincere is very harsh.
Regards to one and all.
A

Nobel indeed. Let me just say from the start that I am in your face, blunt and brutally honest person. In real life, I am very polite and people say I have great sense of humour.

When it comes to Pakistan and Pakistanis nature and their deeds, I put my usual banter and humour on one side. What condition Pakistan is in at the moment is no laughing matter. On co-operation and joint ventures etc. I wouldn't comment, unless we have full information. That doesn't stop me commenting on issues generally and specifically on the standing of Pakistan at the moment. Militarily , politically or economically. Every educated person knows they are all inter-related.

The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has slipped up drastically and now playing catch up. Someone has to be responsible for that. Why Pakistanis keep making excuses and shifting blame!! That is the biggest problem I have with Pakistani people.

We know Pakistani politicians they are corrupt. But they had been corrupt since 1970/80s. All the Generals without exception knew it. Why they supported and helped these corrupt thugs obtain power in Pakistan!!!
When it comes to their saving their own skins, they revolted and carried out coup de etat.

1- Zia created a monster Nawaz, who still think he is the only person who should rule over Pakistan.

2- Pakistani military stand by with this corrupt monster for years and only revolted against him when Musharaf's path collided with him in Kargil War. Nawaz clearly is a traitor, why he was not taken care of at the time!! Musharaf should have got rid of this vile man.

3- Same Musharaf in an effort to prolong his regime then offered NRO to BB and Nawaz on the behest of USA. What rights he has to offer immunity from corruption and prosecution!! Why no action taken against Musharaf when NRO was declared null, void and illegal by SCP!! The judges only concern to declared it illegal without spelling out the punishment for individuals for their illegal acts!!!

4- General Kiyani ensured by manipulating elections results that both PPP and then PMLN take baris according to the understanding reached during NRO negotiations. Why no action taken against Kiyani for helping Nawaz and corrupt CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry!!

5- Entered Raheel , he let Maryam off the hook in Dawn Leaks. with mantra "Betiyan sab ki sanjhi hoti hain". Really!!

6- Entered Bajwa, he helped Nawaz flee the country despite conviction. Is this role of PA COAS to help convicted criminals escape justice!! Why no action taken against Bajwa!!
Maryam let off the hook and released from the jail on the ground being a woman. Again with same mantra "Betiyan sab ki sanjhi hoti hain". What about thousands of poor women who are in jails!! Different laws and rules for different people!!

Pakistani generals all these decades help the corrupt thugs looting Pakistan and coming back to the power again and again. They may still come back to the power. I am certain the PA now wants to give SS chance to loot Pakistan further.

All that is related to Economy and finances. Which are needed for both the joint venture or local production. In a nutshell PA is greatly responsible for the dire condition Pakistan is in right at the moment.
They have supported and tolerated, nurtured corrupt thugs for decades. In some cases killers like Altaf and the gang. Is this the role of an army!!

Are these acts duties and job description of COAS of PA!!

I am sorry to be blunt. Things are in such state due to doing of PA over the decades. Politicians played on these short comings and lined up their pockets, made themselves and their children filthy rich. Who wouldn't do that when there is no fear, no accountability and no consequences for their actions.

It is a right mess. Some has to clear it. Responsibilities are on those who created this mess.
Corrupt Shahbaz Sharif is not the answer, but that is the answer Pakistan is going to get. The dye is cast.
Wait for it, I be waiting too.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Oh Please.... Bilal Khan himself has many biases... he is half Turkish-Pakistani. Turkish systems benefit Pakistan very limitedly but benefit Turkey far far more. For example we already are decades ahead of them in fighter jet technology (JF-17), Cruise missile technology (Babur/Raad) and ballistic missile technology (Shaheen/ghauri/abdali).

The Turks are the ones coming to us begging to join their projects, transfer technology, hell they even went as far as nuclear tech. Yet he will make it somehow seem we are deprieved of the tech. Our scientist, engineers, physicist are world renowned . It is only outisders who continue to sabatoage progress.

I am in no way saying we should not cooperate with the Turks in joint projects. What I am saying is we should do it with a positition of strengh because we are far ahead of them in most fields. Or else they would not be begging us to join their 5th generation fighter project. We should look at our own interest first

All I can say is wow!! What a different plane of reference. Could not be poles apart in our thinking. Outsiders will always sabotage. That is a fact of life. On the other hand our approach and weakness of mind and imagination is our own "goal", and completely avoidable. I think that is the only point we are trying to make.

Also as far as I am concerned, I will not even get into the discussion of "corruption" as that is not a topic I can speak about. What I am aware of is the institutional structure, decision making process, skill-set, knowledge capture over time, technical and strategic thinking in terms of projects - that part remains so intrinsically aligned within the Uniformed class, that given its nature of rank discipline (yessir mindset) that is it not suited in the technical pursuits that require a completely open, dynamic and transparent environment. It is the institutional structure that is failing not people intentions or honesty.

 

[Rafi]

I tried hard not to talk, but you are not ahead of us in anything other than certain solid and liquid rocket engine technology. Even nuclear is not a technology but an choise.

You are talking extraordinary nonsense. It is funny that you could have the courage to make a collection from here and there and really make these words.

Its the net bro, probably an indjab cunt....trying to creat flame wars with our Bros

 

[Cookie Monster]

IMO that approach stops kills original or indigenous solution. Our procurement is totally biased in favour of the Chinese and the West, i.e., foreign currency exit ramps.

To be like the US, the Europeans, the Chinese, and now Turkey, we would need to let go of "wait for it to be mature." Otherwise, we won't develop our own stuff.

It's a sad state of affairs...so many missed opportunities. A country the size of Pak(economically, militarily, population, etc.) should at least be making the basics(staple products of every military) like tanks, artillery, helicopters, drones. If tiny little european countries like Serbia can make artillery...then so can we. Not only does that keep the money from flowing out...it also creates synergistic effects in R&D, production, logistics, etc. For example if Pak made it's own self propelled artillery(truck based)...they can tweak/modify the engine to use in armored cars(Humvee like). This experience can further help to develop engines for tanks and APC/IFVs. Tanks, APC/IFV and a whole host of vehicles(like the bridge deploying one) can use the same chassis. A tiny jet engine developed for a cruise missile can be used or a modification of it can be used for a drone(and vice versa). This can create varying different levels of commonality from basic nuts and bolts, to materials, to subsystems, etc. This commonality would not only help save massive amounts of money for repairs, overhaul...but also keep the production lines churning constantly...and essentially "harden" us against attrition during wartime(more commonality means less chances of a certain equipment's repairability grinding to a halt bcuz parts can be scavenged from other units).

 

[Philip the Arab]

UAE simply has more more money. However, a sustainable defense industry cannot be created by simply hiring expatriates.

It isn't exactly just using foreign engineers, there are a lot of Emirati engineers working as juniors under the South Africans but nonetheless gaining experience.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Its the net bro, probably an indjab cunt....trying to creat flame wars with our Bros

I am especially annoyed that citizens of Muslim countries get into such a quarrel with each other. I also have a nervous breakdown when I see my own citizens like MMME. You can see that the Turks do the same thing to some Arabs, if not to Pakistanis. I will never understand why.

 

[Vapour]

Before I pen these thought please allow me to say that my thoughts are not directed at ANYONE but the gist of the posts that are doing the rounds.
With a few exceptions none of us know what has actually gone on in our defence acquisitions and the thoughts behind it. Those who do keep their mouths tightly shut for fear of betraying Pakistan. There have been instances of people on fora being cpurt martialled abd sent home for a loose off the cuff remark. There have also been instances of Pakistan losing out on lucrative deals due to a loose mouth. But in general:
1. How do we know that all the thought process behind our acquisition sprees have been what you guys have written?
2. What do we actually know about the developments in aviation and defence products by Turkey, Ukraine and South Africa?
3. What do we know( irrefutable facts and not the drivel fed into us by our HARAMI press{please understand the term of Harami in Arabic is that of a thief and I have used it in these terms} about our own finances and more so the greed of our leaders( both military and polity)?
4. Do we understand that the decision of acquiring this or that is not a decision of one man but a group of people who evaluate the equipment? If so are we calling the whole of our armed forces myopic, or there is something more to it than that?
5. PA collaborated with SA on one ofcthe Darter missiles? with Turkey on Milgem and T129, with Mectron Brazil on anARM(Forget the name, with the eventual aim of picking up the Pirhana). How many of these projects have been successful and ongoing and why?
6. What are the impediments of trading with these countries and why do we keep returning to China and now Turkey?
If we amalgamate our thoughts along these lines there is enough material on this board to think put why Pakistan is collaboration shy?
7. What was our own industry like and could it have incorporated the tech we were looking to get?
Lastly a lot is being written on Turkey's progress on Drones. We have a parallel industry and so collaboration my at best be in the field of subassemblies and information gathering and resolution of problems but not whole system.
Please refer to @bilal Khan777posts about Turkish developments and see where we are and why things are being done the way they are. He is turse but the truth comes out of his posts. There is more than 30yrs of full blooded first hand experience talking there.
Like all of you I wish PAKlands the best and I remain a loyal Pakistani. I am also a realist and not unaware of the corruption of our forces as well as polity but to label everyone carte blanche as myopic/nonsincere is very harsh.
Regards to one and all.
A

Excellent post.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I am especially annoyed that citizens of Muslim countries get into such a quarrel with each other. I also have a nervous breakdown when I see my own citizens like MMME. You can see that the Turks do the same thing to some Arabs, if not to Pakistanis. I will never understand why.

If Muslim countries didn't quarrel with each other...they have enough capital, manpower, talent, etc. to be entirely self sufficient for their defense needs...they can literally start making/buying everything from each other...
...but of course...like with all things...that is too much to hope for. At the very least though even if it's just two countries(like Pakistan and Turkey) they should at least try...and hope that overtime more will join in.

 

[Mohamed Bin Tughlaq]

They should go for it

 

[Rafi]

I am especially annoyed that citizens of Muslim countries get into such a quarrel with each other. I also have a nervous breakdown when I see my own citizens like MMME. You can see that the Turks do the same thing to some Arabs, if not to Pakistanis. I will never understand why.

We all have our weirdos, but the vast majority of Pakistani people view Turkish achievements very favourably, as brothers should.

 

[Thorough Pro]

The whole US rocket/space program was started/boasted by the kidnapped/absconding German engineers

Pakistan also used South African engineers. Many were living in Pakistan for a while. UAE simply has more more money. However, a sustainable defense industry cannot be created by simply hiring expatriates.