Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee visits Baykar UAV facility in Turkey

[kursed]

The fact that they delegated to the outside is a big thing IMHO. If the Army delegated, then HIT could've been a much better org.

I am guessing that their diminished size made it easy for them to delegate (although it's still more complicated than just that).

The issue here is simple. In Pakistan, our processes and institutions make administrators, they do not nurture original thought, or people who can actually make things happen. We can cry ourselves hoarse every few years but this is not going to change.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I don't give our decision-makers enough credit to have trust deficits with anyone -- for a country that repeatedly asks for US equipment, I doubt there's a 'trust deficit' issue.

Rather, it has more to do with a very limited vision and a penchant to constantly defer to big suppliers in the West and China.

In fact, even if we start buying lots of Turkish gear now, we are still missing "the point."

The point wasn't to buy from Turkey (or Ukraine or South Africa), but to co-develop weapons and critical inputs (e.g., engines) with those countries.

The point was to make the TAI Anka the TAI-PAC Anka, or the TAI ATAK-2 into the TAI-PAC ATAK-2, not to buy the Anka or ATAK-2. Yes, I understand we have a limited budget, but shipping that money out to some other country and then perpetually rely on that country for supplies (and ship out even more USD) is not a solution. The solution is to redirect that wealth (however limited) to domestic solutions.

Now, I'm sure our generals will say, "well our bloody civilians don't know how to make anything," and I'm sure our engineers will say, "our bloody generals don't know anything."

Fair, but we should undergo that argument, in the open. Too bad we don't have policy people to facilitate that exchange and to line up the facts and arguments from both sides to come up with the best solution.

They will say that - and in the next breadth they'll say "our networks are secure we have our own dedicated fiber networks". I would laugh if it weren't true.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Pakistan in 2016: "Everything in Turkey's actually Western origin. No point in working with them on anything. And no one cares about South African stuff."

Pakistan in 2021: "Can we buy Turkish drones and Emirati-South African mini-drones?"

Honestly, what a nation. We literally could have co-developed this stuff from them and not ask this question, "can we buy?"

Absolutely bhai jan
I am blown away that they still have awesome projects we could jump on a JV with. But noooo uncles stuck in their old golden days bro.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am guessing that their diminished size made it easy for them to delegate (although it's still more complicated than just that).

The issue here is simple. In Pakistan, our processes and institutions make administrators, they do not nurture original thought, or people who can actually make things happen. We can cry ourselves hoarse every few years but this is not going to change.

If Pakistani politicians taught me one thing, it's to keep going, and going, and going.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Aksungur is a TAI made aircraft. Aksungur project is actually a continuation project of the ANKA program and defined as ANKA-II. ANKA-S and ANKA-II will be followed by the Göksungur project.


Baykar's projects are TB-3 (new tactical and navalised block), and Akıncı strategic attack system. In addition, work on fixed-wing VTOL tactical systems continues. In a longer perspective, the conceptualization process of the advanced stealth turbofan attack jet, under the name of MIUS, continues. The mockup for this MIUS project could appear next year.

Baykar has a strategic relationship with Ukroboronprom's two companies. One of them is a joint venture of NVKG-Zorya-Mashproek and Baykar. Lodos Propulsion is a company founded on gas turbine engines. The other is that Ivchenko engines are determined as Baykar's one of the main solution partner. Another JV, Black Sea Shield company established for the collaboration of Ivchenko and Baykar. Baykar shares of both companies are 51%, while Ukrainian participation is 49%. Baykar is preparing for a very serious breakthrough. I would like to inform you that, the company will roughly double its size in next 5-6 years. They have put a lot of emphasis on infrastructure investments in recent years and the company is growing at a very radical rate.

The fact that the company is a private affiliate and is specifically related to only one aviation field enables it to develop policies much more effectively and faster than a public institution. Especially, they managed to take a quick position against the reactions (embargo or other bureaucratic obstacles) seen after the great success provided by the TB-2 system. Other than the strategic relationship with Ukroboronprom, Baykar is currently evaluating the possibilities of joint projects with many countries such as Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and working on solutions designed according to the specific conditions of these forces.

Isn't the guy behind Baykar industries Erdoğan's son in law?? There was some controversy about that or just western propaganda?

 

[KaiserX]

Just waisting time and going for photo ops, Our Generals from their experience of the last 40 years are really incapable. Only new fanboys will gain something from this... just as they expect. I myself was like that about 20 years ago but learned from experience how our GENERALS really are and think.

I will change my opinion only when they take action or show ANY SIGNS OF IMPROVEMENT. Until then I dont care about these photo ops. When kashmiris in IOK are being terrorized on a daily basis hell when kashmiris on our side our being bombed on a daily basis we have the aukat to brag about such photoshoots... I myself am at the point of giving up.

When Pakistan had the Buraq and was amonst the first nations to hit militants via a UCAV then it is a shame that a decade later our Military Chief is even aluding to the thought of buying overseas UCAVs. That itself makes me lack the credibility of the systems we already have... furthermore it makes me think that rather than invest in indigenous homegrown systems that they want some corruption type kickback from such deals... how else could the Turkish Attack Heli deal have gone on for so long that we are so nationally insecure with regards to attack helicopters??? any intelligent person would ask.

Members on this forum can say.. "Oh I told you so" without having any meaningful relevance from this. If any General went overseas would they not show off their latest equipment? but thats when biases come though....

Until we realize that our Generals were way more medals than they are capable of carrying, or live in mansions way bigger than their NEEDS, or realize there lavish life is far more than they ever ACHIEVED then we are a doomed nation. Honestly we would be far better giving away such plots/benefits to teachers in the meantime.

I myself personally have spoken to such generals, majors, colonels, and their bragging and geopolitical insight is even worse than newbews on this forum yet they carry more metals than olympics champions.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

US won't let Ukraine sell engine to Turkey or Pakistan, due to hostile relation with Israel.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Why buy something which they never really use? PA has poor history of using drones to eliminate targets in Afghanistan or tribal areas, maybe purchasing the drones will fill some pockets of Pindi boys.

By that logic we should stick with lee enfield 3naught3 and biplanes for our army and airforce. Maybe sailboats for our navy??

The fact that they delegated to the outside is a big thing IMHO. If the Army delegated, then HIT could've been a much better org.

HIT and POF deserve to be defunded IMHO. Bunch of uncles wasting time and money citing resources as excuses. Instead of being creative, getting the raw Pashtoon talent to work with them.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) In Turkey alone there are still upcoming future projects which no one is paying attention to. Their EO/Optical game is strong, along with ground vehicles etc. Turkish partnership has potential to help us jump start helicopter production in Pakistan. Also Turks have awesome air, ground and naval armament/smart weapon programs.

Embraer is in shambles has several armaments for aircraft, E series(Sea Sultan) and KC390 in works. Ukraine also has several aircraft designs to offer. Eastern Europe also has some novel things in works. China and Russia are partnering to try and make their own 777 type jet. Mitsubishi MRJ. But no PAC wants to take Comac turboprop which no one really would buy with the rise of efficient regional jets.

There are options out there with potential to become world leading weapon systems. PakMil has options to play with should it choose. If PakMil can take these novel projects and work with them they can deliver great results.

We can also pay in small batches like Singapore(was it singapore or Indonesia I forget) was doing for KFX. Which we were gonna pay anyway to the rich white countries. But with these we would have a share if these weapons are sold to other countries.

With sales of JF17 I thought perhaps naively that PakMil would be addicted to making $$. But no same old pre historic mindset and excuse PAC/HIT/POF are not commercial entities bs.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Isn't the guy behind Baykar industries Erdoğan's son in law?? There was some controversy about that or just western propaganda?

The CTO of Baykar first made a number of drones including TB-2, and then he became Reis’s son-in-law; not the other way round....

 

[KaiserX]

By that logic we should stick with lee enfield 3naught3 and biplanes for our army and airforce. Maybe sailboats for our navy??

HIT and POF deserve to be defunded IMHO. Bunch of uncles wasting time and money citing resources as excuses. Instead of being creative, getting the raw Pashtoon talent to work with them.

Best comment I have ever seen. They deserve to be defunded. Fooling the nation by releasing videos a decade ago about being the 4th nation to conduct UCAV strikes yet failing to invest in those capabilities for a decade and instead going overseases to spend x100 more. Definitely their is some form of kickback involved in all this. Bajwa thinks everyone is stupid and he is so intelligent that one day the Indians kill Pakistanis at the LOC and the next day he has brain hemorrhage and wants to make peace. He should be thrown out and have shoes hit on his face.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Best comment I have ever seen. They deserve to be defunded. Fooling the nation by releasing videos a decade ago about being the 4th nation to conduct UCAV strikes yet failing to invest in those capabilities for a decade and instead going overseases to spend x100 more. Definitely their is some form of kickback involved in all this. Bajwa thinks everyone is stupid and he is so intelligent that one day the Indians kill Pakistanis at the LOC and the next day he has brain hemorrhage and wants to make peace. He should be thrown out and have shoes hit on his face.

Bro don't get me started on Bajwa the spineless

 

[KaiserX]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) In Turkey alone there are still upcoming future projects which no one is paying attention to. Their EO/Optical game is strong, along with ground vehicles etc. Turkish partnership has potential to help us jump start helicopter production in Pakistan. Also Turks have awesome air, ground and naval armament/smart weapon programs.

Embraer is in shambles has several armaments for aircraft, E series(Sea Sultan) and KC390 in works. Ukraine also has several aircraft designs to offer. Eastern Europe also has some novel things in works. China and Russia are partnering to try and make their own 777 type jet. Mitsubishi MRJ. But no PAC wants to take Comac turboprop which no one really would buy with the rise of efficient regional jets.

There are options out there with potential to become world leading weapon systems. PakMil has options to play with should it choose. If PakMil can take these novel projects and work with them they can deliver great results.

We can also pay in small batches like Singapore(was it singapore or Indonesia I forget) was doing for KFX. Which we were gonna pay anyway to the rich white countries. But with these we would have a share if these weapons are sold to other countries.

With sales of JF17 I thought perhaps naively that PakMil would be addicted to making $$. But no same old pre historic mindset and excuse PAC/HIT/POF are not commercial entities bs.

Oh Please.... Bilal Khan himself has many biases... he is half Turkish-Pakistani. Turkish systems benefit Pakistan very limitedly but benefit Turkey far far more. For example we already are decades ahead of them in fighter jet technology (JF-17), Cruise missile technology (Babur/Raad) and ballistic missile technology (Shaheen/ghauri/abdali).

The Turks are the ones coming to us begging to join their projects, transfer technology, hell they even went as far as nuclear tech. Yet he will make it somehow seem we are deprieved of the tech. Our scientist, engineers, physicist are world renowned . It is only outisders who continue to sabatoage progress.

I am in no way saying we should not cooperate with the Turks in joint projects. What I am saying is we should do it with a positition of strengh because we are far ahead of them in most fields. Or else they would not be begging us to join their 5th generation fighter project. We should look at our own interest first

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Oh Please.... Bilal Khan himself has many biases... he is half Turkish-Pakistani. Turkish systems benefit Pakistan very limitedly but benefit Turkey far far more. For example we already are decades ahead of them in fighter jet technology (JF-17), Cruise missile technology (Babur/Raad) and ballistic missile technology (Shaheen/ghauri/abdali).

The Turks are the ones coming to us begging to join their projects, transfer technology, hell they even went as far as nuclear tech. Yet he will make it somehow seem we are deprieved of the tech. Our scientist, engineers, physicist are world renowned . It is only outisders who continue to sabatoage progress.

I am in no way saying we should not cooperate with the Turks in joint projects. What I am saying is we should do it with a positition of strengh because we are far ahead of them in most fields. Or else they would not be begging us to join their 5th generation fighter project. We should look at our own interest first

I think there's a give or take to be had we are good at some things and they are good at a lot fo things.

But bro to be fair in a decade they have jumped leaps and bounds bro. Gotta hand it to them. Not just us but now the whole world want in on Turkish weapons. Countries who couldn't afford buying from rich white nations. That is what happens when labor cost to make something is cheaper I suppose.

 

[KaiserX]

I think there's a give or take to be had we are good at some things and they are good at a lot fo things.

But bro to be fair in a decade they have jumped leaps and bounds bro. Gotta hand it to them. Not just us but now the whole world want in on Turkish weapons. Countries who couldn't afford buying from rich white nations. That is what happens when labor cost to make something is cheaper I suppose.

Our labor costs and tech is far better... it is the mindset and the inferiority complex of our people. We have far better missiles/jets than the turks ie Shaheens/Nasrs/baburs/raads/JF17B3s yet we as PAKISTANI ourselves do not believe in our systems nor spend the extra hundred millions to market their battle proven capabilities.

It is more a battle of facts and perceptions than capabilities my friend.