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Ancient India in the time of the Mahabharata

Identity can’t precede the object, being identified with. “Pakistani” is the identity - a national identity at that, which came into being, with the coming into being of the state of Pakistan. One can’t apply this identity retrospectively, from the beginning of time, to everything or anything that at some point of time existed, physically or otherwise within the landmass that the union of Pakistan now occupies . Claiming medieval characters, like Panini, to be Pakistani, because they were born and/or worked in a region, which is now in Pakistan, is outrageously bad history. The history of Pakistan, the nation, starts from 1947 and will continue till the nation ceases to exist politically, if at all she does so, in her current name. Anything that happened before 1947, belongs to whatever this piece of land was called by or referred to or identified with. Anything that happens after she ceases to politically exist, will then belong to her successor, if any.

That, brings us to the term “India” and its connotations.

When historians use the term “India”, they don’t mean the current political union of India, but a geographical region, that includes the landmass that is occupied by current unions of Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The political identity or term of “India”, whether under the British or Mughals or Delhi Sultanate or Ashoka or even before that, was derived from this geographical identity and it is not the other way round, which is being implied here. The fact that this huge landmass was indeed called “India”, is evidenced and attested, by many foreign sources, Megasthenes being one of those. “Pakistan” on the other hand, has no connotation other than that of a state. The term, at no time in history, ever referred to any geographical region whatsoever, and still does not. It is purely a political identity and that too, of recent origin.

This brings us to a even larger question of who, then, can claim(?) the history pre-1947. On a grand scheme of things, Pakistan can’t claim it, exclusively. But then again, neither can the union of India. It is infact, a history, jointly and in equal proportion, shared by these two nations, along with Bangladesh. This also creates a peculiar problem. How can something that happened in an area, which is modern day Chennai, be shared in equal proportions with someone living in a region, which is modern day Multan, and of course, vice-versa.

So how do we apportion our share of history. But then, what history shall we share in the first place. Shall it be events that had significant impact, on regions that are currently separated by political boundaries (e.g. Pre-islamic history, Islamic history, Colonial history etc.)? Shall we then, not share the local history, which perhaps never had any measurably significant impact on the other side (e.g. Pushtun history or Assamese history)? Or shall we share all history, however unconnected or insignificant they are to the different regions, because we are all descendent of a common stock (Genetic marker M124 is common to both Pakistanis and Indians – refer Sengupta et. al 2006 and Manoukian 2006)?

Frankly, I do not have the answers. But I suppose, that the events that significantly effected both the sides of the divide, are indeed shared ones. Individual ethnic history, may not always be shared ones, while some, may well be. (Interestingly, the Brahui people, who live mostly in Kalat district of Pakistan, and in some parts of Afganistan and Iran, speak a language, that has about 15% Dravidian words and are grammatically and morphologically similar to Dravidian as well, although the regions are far apart from each other by over a thousand of miles.)

So lets just call, IVC, what it is, and not as “Pakistani civilization” or “Indian civilization”, unless one intends to imply the entire sub-continent, and lets not drag Panini and his ilk into this identity politics.
 
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Whoever gave you ppl the impression that all Indian Hindus disown the glory of Muslim empire in India?
Thats not true...
 
AM,
That was NOT off topic.
Rather it was exactly about what we had been debating about present day Pakistanis and there lineage with the ancient people of IVC and what propaganda and myth your Govt and Military have been feeding to your masses, by none other than a Pakistani intellectual.

You should better accept that neither you nor your forum have the stomach for such bold assertions, otherwise your wouldn't have taken the pains to delete the post. You don't want your people to read such stuff. Period.
 
AM,
That was NOT off topic.
Rather it was exactly about what we had been debating about present day Pakistanis and there lineage with the ancient people of IVC and what propaganda and myth your Govt and Military have been feeding to your masses, by none other than a Pakistani intellectual.

You should better accept that neither you nor your forum have the stomach for such bold assertions, otherwise your wouldn't have taken the pains to delete the post. You don't want your people to read such stuff. Period.

Please discuss issues related to moderator decision through PM.

And before making uninformed allegations of what this forum can and cannot discuss, read through the various threads that have been posted on similar issues such as those that Irfan discusses, often with far more critical views.

The problem is not that Pakistanis cannot discuss these issues, the issue is that Indians have been brainwashed through propaganda to think that we cannot discuss or do not discuss such issues. The fact that Irfan Hussein (and many others) talks about these issues and they get published in the mainstream Pakistani press is a clear indication of why your assertion is hogwash.

And I would not have asked you to re-post the article in the relevant forum had I no intention of 'debating' it- but then I wouldn't really expect anything else from you after your 'views of an average Pakistani' tripe.

Thanks.
 
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This image shows the locations of Kingdoms mentioned in the Indian epics. Focus is on Mahabharata. The names mentioned in Ramayana also is included. The locations of the kingdoms are based on the current knowledge about their locations.

fb20ec1cedbce9e03944d2b2df8fb1e4.jpg

Nice map. But who put Gandhara over present day Pakistan? The Kingdom is commonly taken to be Kandahar.

And Lakshadweep is not on the map. I know it is an atoll that was made by corals, but I think it has to be older than Mahabharata. And i didn't know that Gujarat coast was underwater either.
Do you know the source ?
 
At times India was politically united by Empires such as the Mauryas, and at other times there were many separate kingdoms. But there has always been a civilizational unity. Adi Shankara of Kerala and Panini of Gandhara belonged to the same civilization.

This civilization must be considered distinct from the culture of the Islamic invaders, which is the legacy claimed by many present-day Pakistanis. It is probably true that Pakistanis of today are mostly of Indic stock converted to Islam by the sword or otherwise. For example, people with surnames like Cheema, Janjua, Rathod, Thakur, Bhat and Warraich can be Hindu, Sikh or Muslim. But historical legacy is transmitted not through genes but through culture, philosophy, knowledge and outlook.

Those Pakistanis who believe that the "matlab" of Pakistan is "La Ilaha Illalah" obviously cannot claim credit for Panini or Brahmaguta. That would be as ludicrous as Nazis trying to claim credit for Einstein's theory of relativity. Panini and Brahmaguta are as Pakistani as LK Advani (from Karachi) or Manmohan Singh (from Chakwal). But IMHO Pakistanis have the option of reclaiming that legacy by going back to their "Jaheel" and "Kaffir" pre-Islamic civilizational roots.


The map was nice, but the comments are unnecessary. Let Pakistan claim whatever history they want - how does that hurt anyone ? Indians still can learn from the history of two cultures and multiple languages. If Pakistan rejects anything except Islamic history, so be it. If they want to learn up old languages and dig up old mathematics, more power to them.

The civilizational unity was more of language and customs. Languages have changed (no body speaks Sanskrit anymore) and customs vary a lot even in India. The map also puts Kyrghistan and Tajikistan as part of ancient India (and of course Afghanistan) and even China is included as "highly speculative" party to Mahabharata war. They certainly are not "Indian" culture or language. Pakistan is somewhere along that cultural spectrum - very close to Indian Punjab and Kashmir, but far away from Sikkim or Tamil cultures.

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Offtopic wrt map story
Only thing I am confused about Pakistani claims is this one - Pakistan named a ship after Tipu Sultan who was from Mysore. I have no clue who got the idea that a King who is loved in Karnataka and fought the Nawabs of Hyderabad is a symbol of Pakistan.
 
Please discuss issues related to moderator decision through PM.
That is one point I would take in.
And before making uninformed allegations of what this forum can and cannot discuss, read through the various threads that have been posted on similar issues such as those that Irfan discusses, often with far more critical views.
If that be so, I find no "intellectual" reasons to delete the post. It was not harming anybody's pov, was it?

The problem is not that Pakistanis cannot discuss these issues, the issue is that Indians have been brainwashed through propaganda to think that we cannot discuss or do not discuss such issues. The fact that Irfan Hussein (and many others) talks about these issues and they get published in the mainstream Pakistani press is a clear indication of why your assertion is hogwash.
Hogwash and a Half.

And I would not have asked you to re-post the article in the relevant forum had I no intention of 'debating' it- but then I wouldn't really expect anything else from you after your 'views of an average Pakistani' tripe.
That's a personal comment. I would "refrain" from indulging in THAT with you.
 
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Offtopic wrt map story
Only thing I am confused about Pakistani claims is this one - Pakistan named a ship after Tipu Sultan who was from Mysore. I have no clue who got the idea that a King who is loved in Karnataka and fought the Nawabs of Hyderabad is a symbol of Pakistan.

Excellent observation.
 
Excellent observation.

yea i too had observed this ...he fought against the english and died a glorious death in the battle of Mysore ....here kids are thought about tipu sultans bravery ...and his famous quote ....its better to live as a tiger for 3 days rather to live as a r.at for a 100 days ...these are thought in fourth grade

:cheers:
 
Excellent observation.

call it identity crises, if you may!

Btw I dont understand this, Pakistan as an entity didnt exist before 1947. Even as an idea, it didnt exist before 1930's. So what is all this fuss about prehistory Pakistan?
Of-course India didnt exist politically as it is today, not untill atleast 1961 (with Goa liberation). But in history, there was a clear distinct identity of the people residing in the subcontinent, their cultures, their traditions etc. Collectively they were called Indians/Hindus (name derived from Indus river)..and that is where we get our identity from, even the people of present day Pakistan! (off topic: like it or not, but many of your present day traditions are derivatives of prehistoric Hindu traditions!)
Beyond those borders, were the Persians -a completely distinct civilization and culture! (Afghans were part of the Persian empire - albeit a distinct people themselves, but a portion of them later became part of western India under the British empire) On the eastern side were another distinct people, the Chinese.
So pray, do tell me, where does this identity of Pakistan come from while referring to pre-British colonization times! Please explain.
 
Nice map. But who put Gandhara over present day Pakistan? The Kingdom is commonly taken to be Kandahar.

And Lakshadweep is not on the map. I know it is an atoll that was made by corals, but I think it has to be older than Mahabharata. And i didn't know that Gujarat coast was underwater either.
Do you know the source ?

You are mistaken about Gandhara/kandahar. Its not be be mistaken by its so called present day namesake. Gandhara as a kingdom existed in the present day valley of Peshwar and Taxila!
I too did wonder about portion of Gujrat being underwater. Wasnt Dwarka a kingdom 'onland' during the Mahabharata before it was subsequently submerged by the rising seas?
And to think, this map is on wikipedia!
 
yea i too had observed this ...he fought against the english and died a glorious death in the battle of Mysore ....here kids are thought about tipu sultans bravery ...and his famous quote ....its better to live as a tiger for 3 days rather to live as a r.at for a 100 days ...these are thought in fourth grade

:cheers:

Tipu.......he was brave but he lost.
I find it weird that pakistan would name a ship after a defeated general.
 
Tipu.......he was brave but he lost.
I find it weird that pakistan would name a ship after a defeated general.

you missed the whole point of living as a tiger for a few days compared to living as a *** for eternity ....plz read his famous quote from my previous post ...victory or defeat bravery shines everywhere ...


:cheers:
 

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