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Ancient India in the time of the Mahabharata

Its all speculations, we all know the real civilization of india were the indus river civilization , by the rivers, an other local ppl were just attacked by outsiders, and their belongings were taken up by wars.

I think the real owners of indian are the dalit people who have dark skin and they were then made into untouchables class etc.

Also there is substantial documentation that some of these native indians were forced to leave to europe where they live now as ROMA people , across europe.
They do not have schooling , high death rates, and other bad things.

Most of the other group they migrated didn't they ??

Also most of india never was one state it was always small kings and princes , and small states fighting with each other.

Mahabaharat etc what else can I sat it was , a folklore of its time
told in village parties and gatherings and it became , legend
 
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The map was nice, but the comments are unnecessary. Let Pakistan claim whatever history they want - how does that hurt anyone ? Indians still can learn from the history of two cultures and multiple languages. If Pakistan rejects anything except Islamic history, so be it. If they want to learn up old languages and dig up old mathematics, more power to them.

The civilizational unity was more of language and customs. Languages have changed (no body speaks Sanskrit anymore) and customs vary a lot even in India. The map also puts Kyrghistan and Tajikistan as part of ancient India (and of course Afghanistan) and even China is included as "highly speculative" party to Mahabharata war. They certainly are not "Indian" culture or language. Pakistan is somewhere along that cultural spectrum - very close to Indian Punjab and Kashmir, but far away from Sikkim or Tamil cultures.

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Offtopic wrt map story
Only thing I am confused about Pakistani claims is this one - Pakistan named a ship after Tipu Sultan who was from Mysore. I have no clue who got the idea that a King who is loved in Karnataka and fought the Nawabs of Hyderabad is a symbol of Pakistan.

You missed it. Pakistanis think that anything that belongs to thier Non existent "Ummah" belongs to present days Islamic Republic of Pakistan
 
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Glad to note, there are souls with rationale on the other side...

Quote: Cerafix

I think it is India - mostly Hindus - who seem to reject the Islamic history of India and marginalize it in comparison to the pre-Islamic period. After all, India under Muslim rule was just as Indian as it was under Hindu rule or Buddhist rule etc. Sure, India has the Taj Mahal as a national monument but is that really all the Mughals did for India?

On the other hand, as a Muslim and a Pakistani, I have to see things differently. Indian history remained Indian history even after the Muslim conquests of India. Contrary to what Indians might think, Pakistani history does not begin with Muhammad Bin Qasim, either for me or for Pakistan in general. After all, Pakistan does value and study sites like Harappa and Moenjodaro and others.

Furthermore, we don't view Islamic and pre-Islamic Pakistan and India as insurmountable divide. As Muslims, we believe that Islam has existed since the time of the first human beings, Adam and Eve. God has sent prophets to every people on Earth at various times to teach them versions of Islam relevant to their time and place and situation. Even India had its prophets. They all had the same basic message of worshipping one god alone. And we believe that Muhammad PBUH was the final messenger with the final version of Islam from God that was meant not for a particular time or place or people, but for all times and places and all human beings everywhere. So as a Pakistani, when I look back and I see those ancestors of mine who were Indian Hindus who became Muslims, it was a return back to the original message that an Indian prophet had brought them. We believe that Hinduism, Buddhism, etc are all corrupted and deviated messages that originated from true beliefs from prophets sent by God. So as a Muslim and a Pakistani, I have to say that I can properly own both periods of the history of the land, the pre-Islamic and the Islamic periods. But Indian Hindus I suppose cannot as they view the Islamic period as foreign and alien and not "Indian".
 
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Very well said, Karnivore. You seem to have said it all that is required to, for this thread...

Identity can’t precede the object, being identified with. “Pakistani” is the identity - a national identity at that, which came into being, with the coming into being of the state of Pakistan. One can’t apply this identity retrospectively, from the beginning of time, to everything or anything that at some point of time existed, physically or otherwise within the landmass that the union of Pakistan now occupies . Claiming medieval characters, like Panini, to be Pakistani, because they were born and/or worked in a region, which is now in Pakistan, is outrageously bad history. The history of Pakistan, the nation, starts from 1947 and will continue till the nation ceases to exist politically, if at all she does so, in her current name. Anything that happened before 1947, belongs to whatever this piece of land was called by or referred to or identified with. Anything that happens after she ceases to politically exist, will then belong to her successor, if any.

That, brings us to the term “India” and its connotations.

When historians use the term “India”, they don’t mean the current political union of India, but a geographical region, that includes the landmass that is occupied by current unions of Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The political identity or term of “India”, whether under the British or Mughals or Delhi Sultanate or Ashoka or even before that, was derived from this geographical identity and it is not the other way round, which is being implied here. The fact that this huge landmass was indeed called “India”, is evidenced and attested, by many foreign sources, Megasthenes being one of those. “Pakistan” on the other hand, has no connotation other than that of a state. The term, at no time in history, ever referred to any geographical region whatsoever, and still does not. It is purely a political identity and that too, of recent origin.

This brings us to a even larger question of who, then, can claim(?) the history pre-1947. On a grand scheme of things, Pakistan can’t claim it, exclusively. But then again, neither can the union of India. It is infact, a history, jointly and in equal proportion, shared by these two nations, along with Bangladesh. This also creates a peculiar problem. How can something that happened in an area, which is modern day Chennai, be shared in equal proportions with someone living in a region, which is modern day Multan, and of course, vice-versa.

So how do we apportion our share of history. But then, what history shall we share in the first place. Shall it be events that had significant impact, on regions that are currently separated by political boundaries (e.g. Pre-islamic history, Islamic history, Colonial history etc.)? Shall we then, not share the local history, which perhaps never had any measurably significant impact on the other side (e.g. Pushtun history or Assamese history)? Or shall we share all history, however unconnected or insignificant they are to the different regions, because we are all descendent of a common stock (Genetic marker M124 is common to both Pakistanis and Indians – refer Sengupta et. al 2006 and Manoukian 2006)?

Frankly, I do not have the answers. But I suppose, that the events that significantly effected both the sides of the divide, are indeed shared ones. Individual ethnic history, may not always be shared ones, while some, may well be. (Interestingly, the Brahui people, who live mostly in Kalat district of Pakistan, and in some parts of Afganistan and Iran, speak a language, that has about 15% Dravidian words and are grammatically and morphologically similar to Dravidian as well, although the regions are far apart from each other by over a thousand of miles.)

So lets just call, IVC, what it is, and not as “Pakistani civilization” or “Indian civilization”, unless one intends to imply the entire sub-continent, and lets not drag Panini and his ilk into this identity politics.
 
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