World Armies - India

[fatman17]

Army Procurement
Helicopters
The Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH - Dhruv) is being developed for all three services by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and foreign partners, including Germany (powerplants) and Israel (Avionics). It is intended that the army will receive 120 helicopters, the majority armed versions equipped with advanced electro-optics and anti-tank guided missiles.

Initial pre-production deliveries of the ALH in 2002 comprised three a/c to the Indian Army, two each to the airforce and navy and one for the coast guard. As of April 2005, it was claimed that 32 ALH were in service. On 30th March 2006, the cabinet committee on security, in a move to avoid under expenditure before the end of the financial year, approved purchase of 20 Dhruv's for the army. According to the ministry of defence, there is a memorandum-of-understanding with Israel to jointly market a civilian version of the ALH. One ALH was shipped to Israel in December 2004. A Dhruv crashed in November 2005, as a result of major technical failure in the tail rotor assembly, but after rectification of the problem, re-certification of airworthiness began in late March 2006. Another Dhruv crashed on 2 February 2007, while preparing for the Aero India air show at Bangalore, killing one pilot.

In the fiscal year 2005-2006 defence budget, INR9.4 billion was allocated to meet the army requirement of 197 light helicopters suitable for high altitude operations, of which 60 will be purchased outright. Trials took place in mid-2005 of the Eurocopter AS 550 and Bell Trextron 407 and Eurocopter eventually secured the contract. However, citing discrapencies in the evaluation process, India's ministry of defence (MoD) cancelled the Indian Army's tender for 197 Eurocopter AS 550C3 Fennec, light observation helicopters (LOHs) in December 2007.

The army also wishes to acquire 368 armed reconnaissance helicopters (ARHs), and it appears the 407 may be the most suitable machine available. Given the new "Framework for the US-India Defence Relationship" signed in Washington on 28 June 2005, which is oriented towards US commercial involvement, it is likely that US products will be increasingly introduced into indian service.

 

[fatman17]

Army Procurement
Air and Missile Defence
There are reports that India has purchased the Russian Tor-M1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) surface to air missile (SAM), but it is possible that the system is on trial only. India is also in the market for an unspecified number of S-300 ground to air missiles. In February 2004, Russia apparantly made a firm offer to supply the S-300 system, but it is not expected that there will be further negotiations until a budgetary allocation can be secured for the system. More Russian 2S6 Tangusta M-1 self propelled gun/missile systems have been acquired.

Having discarded internal proposals for development of an indigenous system, India has examined two main options for defence against ballistic missiles.; The Israeli Arrow and US Patriot. (India and Israel signed an agreement in January 2004 on the sale of three Phalcon early warning radars to be mounted on IL76 aircraft, and in 2001 acquired Israeli Green Pine radars which are compatible with the Arrow). The US appears to have blocked the sale of the Arrow, which was developed jointly with Israel, on the grounds that it involves sensitive US technology.

Technical Teams from the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) and the Raytheon Company visited India in Fenruary-March 2005 to deliver presentations on the Patriot Advanced Capability 3 (PAC3) system, the role of which is to "provide defence of critical assets and manoeuvere forces belonging to the corps and to echelons above corps against aircraft, cruise missiles, and tactical ballistic missiles" and further briefings from the DSCA and representatives of Boeing and Lockheed Martin were given in September 2005.

 

[heartwinlion]

Army Procurement
Air and Missile Defence
There are reports that India has purchased the Russian Tor-M1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) surface to air missile (SAM), but it is possible that the system is on trial only. India is also in the market for an unspecified number of S-300 ground to air missiles. In February 2004, Russia apparantly made a firm offer to supply the S-300 system, but it is not expected that there will be further negotiations until a budgetary allocation can be secured for the system. More Russian 2S6 Tangusta M-1 self propelled gun/missile systems have been acquired.

Having discarded internal proposals for development of an indigenous system, India has examined two main options for defence against ballistic missiles.; The Israeli Arrow and US Patriot. (India and Israel signed an agreement in January 2004 on the sale of three Phalcon early warning radars to be mounted on IL76 aircraft, and in 2001 acquired Israeli Green Pine radars which are compatible with the Arrow). The US appears to have blocked the sale of the Arrow, which was developed jointly with Israel, on the grounds that it involves sensitive US technology.

Technical Teams from the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) and the Raytheon Company visited India in Fenruary-March 2005 to deliver presentations on the Patriot Advanced Capability 3 (PAC3) system, the role of which is to "provide defence of critical assets and manoeuvere forces belonging to the corps and to echelons above corps against aircraft, cruise missiles, and tactical ballistic missiles" and further briefings from the DSCA and representatives of Boeing and Lockheed Martin were given in September 2005.

Too old new right now India is busy in AAD-1 AAD-2 & PAD for ballistic missiles
barak-II for medium range air defense matiri jv with France LLQR missile and akash.

 

[RedBaron]

Army Procurement
Air and Missile Defence
...
(India and Israel signed an agreement in January 2004 on the sale of three Phalcon early warning radars to be mounted on IL76 aircraft, and in 2001 acquired Israeli Green Pine radars which are compatible with the Arrow).
...

An old article from Debka about Green Pine deployment and Israeli tech support in Kashmir during 2001 tensions.

DEBKAfile - India Deploys Israeli Hi-Tech War Equipment in War Preparations

 

[fatman17]

Army Procurement
Guided Missile Development Program
The Indigenous Integrated Guided Missile Development Program (IGMDP) involves:

Trishul; (Trident) short range SAM
Akash; (Sky) medium range SAM
Nag; (Cobra) 3rd generation ATGW
Prithvi; short range SSM
Agni; (I,II,III) intermediate range SSM
Surya; ICBM
Dhanush; Naval version of the Prithvi
Sagarika; SLCM

The IGDMP is the responsibility of the DRDO. Prithvi and Agni were developed with assistance from India's Space Research Organisation. Following failure of a test in July 2006, the Agni III had a successful flight in April 2007. Prithvi is a basic free flight SSM in limited service. On 2 August 2006 India's defence minister stated in a written parliamentry reply that "development of the Akash and Trishul SAM and Nag ATGW is complete and the armed forces have been requested to place orders for them". Development of Trishul was abandoned in December 2006. India's has acquired the Israeli Barak system. On 27 Feburary 2008 the defence minister informed parliament that "development of the Trishul missile system has been completed as (a) technological demonstrator"

The Akash program began in 1983 and the missile was expected to enter service in the early 1990s but did not pass acceptance trials by the armed forces in 2004 and 2005. It was again tested in December 2005 and again failed to be accepted. If further tests are successful the missile could enter service in 2009. It is likely that Israel will supply an improved Barak system.

There have been 57 flight trials of Nag but it is yet to be accepted by the army as the IIR system is faulty. Further trials were scheduled for mid-2007, but no results have been made public, if indeed, any trials have teken place. The army continues to use the AT-5 Spandrel and Milan missiles. built under licence by Bharat Dynamics Ltd.

It is not known if the Surya program continues. Unofficial statements indicate a planned test in 2008.

The Dhanush missile continues to be tested.

Media reports in mid-2007 indicated that the Sagarika missile may be tested in 2008. Reports also indicated that the IGMDP had been abandoned but official statements have claimed that it has been successful and that, in the words of Mr, AK Antony, the defence minister on 27 February 2008, it is "near completion".

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Fatman71, thanks for all this work.

It would sound in many ways that India has done lots of indigenous design and construction but much has collapsed into the technological demonstrator category.

Since much equipment is being externally purchased it would appear that the desire of being a regional power is going to be heavily dependent on the inherent intent and wishes of equipment/weapons suppliers more that the intent of the GoI.

With other points re lack of officers, pay issues, poor retention, lack of ammunitions and poor moral it would seem to raise questions about the recent behaviour of the Indian government in its sabre rattling post Mumbai.

 

[fatman17]

Fatman71, thanks for all this work.

It would sound in many ways that India has done lots of indigenous design and construction but much has collapsed into the technological demonstrator category.

Since much equipment is being externally purchased it would appear that the desire of being a regional power is going to be heavily dependent on the inherent intent and wishes of equipment/weapons suppliers more that the intent of the GoI.

With other points re lack of officers, pay issues, poor retention, lack of ammunitions and poor moral it would seem to raise questions about the recent behaviour of the Indian government in its sabre rattling post Mumbai.

RR Thanks mate! I would prefer if my Indian colleagues comment on your post. I will PM you what i feel.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

RR Thanks mate! I would prefer if my Indian colleagues comment on your post. I will PM you what i feel.

email if easier..
I suspect you are avoiding my equine problem

 

[Proud2Indian]

Fatman71, thanks for all this work.

It would sound in many ways that India has done lots of indigenous design and construction but much has collapsed into the technological demonstrator category.

Since much equipment is being externally purchased it would appear that the desire of being a regional power is going to be heavily dependent on the inherent intent and wishes of equipment/weapons suppliers more that the intent of the GoI.

With other points re lack of officers, pay issues, poor retention, lack of ammunitions and poor moral it would seem to raise questions about the recent behaviour of the Indian government in its sabre rattling post Mumbai.

Oh and I thought it was Pakistan's generals talking around abt war and PAF doing fly-past...
On Serious Note: Nobody from the govt talked abt war...yesterday I was watching the i/w of Indian Home Minister and he said instead of war objectives can be achieved by diplomacy.

tx

 

[Bull]

Fatman71, thanks for all this work.

It would sound in many ways that India has done lots of indigenous design and construction but much has collapsed into the technological demonstrator category..

Agni was a technology demonstrator, but at present they are inducted and fielded.

Arjun would have become one, but now the Armyhas accepted after a series of confusing YES and NO game.

LCA too would have become one. but now IAF is waiting for the IOC in 2010.

Then we have pinakka, Akash which have failed till now.

You have to read the latest eview of DRDO by the committee appointed by GOI to get a clear picture.

Its very easy to sit on the fence and then say ' Yaar waisa nahi aise, Areee kya bakwaas he ye'.

[Since much equipment is being externally purchased it would appear that the desire of being a regional power is going to be heavily dependent on the inherent intent and wishes of equipment/weapons suppliers more that the intent of the GoI.

India is already a regional power.

[With other points re lack of officers, pay issues, poor retention, lack of ammunitions and poor moral it would seem to raise questions about the recent behaviour of the Indian government in its sabre rattling post Mumbai.

Pay package has been raised by 35%. This recession might help defence forces fill in the gaps as the recruitment in pvt sector fails, but retention would be an issue unless promotions are taken care off. Poor moral or morale? Both are not associated with Indian forces. We dont have forces who lay down the arms in front of terrorists inmasse. Sabre rattling Indian govt. Well passsion runs fast after such incidents always.

 

[Contrarian]

Fatman, arent these old articles mate. Arent there newer ones?

 

[RedBaron]

...
With other points re lack of officers, pay issues, poor retention, lack of ammunitions and poor moral it would seem to raise questions about the recent behaviour of the Indian government in its sabre rattling post Mumbai.

You have mentioned some deep-rooted problems which have no easy solutions and may indeed get worse. IMO the Indian Armed Forces have grown over the years to a size that is unwieldy and unmanageable, mainly because of the antiquated structure of the Indian armed forces combined with chronic corruption and lack of accountability on part of the Indian political/bureaucratic setup.

Increasing wages across the board is not sustainable in the medium/long-term (ignoring current crisis) for many reasons:
- Armed Forces wages will never match the private sector, as wage growth in some private industry sectors average 30% in good years. The wage gap for officers, who are young college graduates will only increase as sectors like IT, telecom, auto, retail, infrastructure cos. continue to grow.
- India's budget deficit is already 12% of GDP, its debt ratings are barely above "junk". GoI just cannot afford to spend more on a sustained basis on defence. S&P last week lowered its outlook on India's debt rating to negative from stable, saying the country's deteriorating fiscal position was ``unsustainable'' in the medium term.
Some articles on the deficit issue paint a grim picture:
Bloomberg.com: India & Pakistan
India's Deficit Threatens 'Junk' Rating - BusinessWeek

This "funding" problem is exacerbated by the populist policies of the central gov't. Urgent steps in reducing this deficit like asset sales (privatising public companies) cannot be undertaken quickly due to political compulsions.
But even reducing the budget deficit is not good enough.

IMHO the best long-term solution is to adopt a multi-pronged approach:
- Key is to make peace with Pakistan on Kashmir with continued back-channel diplomacy leading to a formal agreement. This process is now in cold storage due to the worsening situation in Pakistan, Mumbai attacks, Indian elections, etc. But if peace is accomplished in Kashmir someday, huge savings will result due to de-escalation from Siachen all the way down to Gujarat border.
- Combined with the above, steps to reduce the overall size of the armed forces, with emphasis on a smaller, agile, more lethal organization. The focus on improved communications, NCW, ant-missile defences, etc. are positive indications.
- Revamping the bureaucratic setup to make procurement easier and increase accountability. This is by far the hardest due to the vested interests involved. Peace in Kashmir is easier to achieve.

In short, we have some tough problems in managing defence and it's gonna take strong guts and a long time to fix it. But that's just my personal opinion...

 

[fatman17]

Fatman, arent these old articles mate. Arent there newer ones?

if you check the dates, this info is updated to mid-2008. the info in this thread is "verified" by the authors before it is published.

 

[Contrarian]

Some articles mentioned things 'that will happen' in early 2008. So i figured it was old.

The Army chopper post-about the ALH, also does not mention the sales to Ecuador, Chile and Turkey. Neither does it talk about the LCH-the Army's intended gunship for use specifically in high altitude areas like Kargil, Siachin, etc, etc.

 

[fatman17]

Some articles mentioned things 'that will happen' in early 2008. So i figured it was old.

The Army chopper post-about the ALH, also does not mention the sales to Ecuador, Chile and Turkey. Neither does it talk about the LCH-the Army's intended gunship for use specifically in high altitude areas like Kargil, Siachin, etc, etc.

my friend, the report is a "summary". it is not a detailed analysis. it does mention that the army's requirement for armed helicopters. it basically looks at the "overall" IA situation.