World Armies - India

[Contrarian]

fatman, cant speak for all, but i personally did not post in this thread because i wanted you to first post all your info, then we'd start discussing. Did not want to distract you or change the momentum.

Carry on mate!

 

[Kasrkin]

This is great information Fatman117 sir. I'm pretty surprised that this thread hasn’t generated loads of interest. I suppose it might be because many Indian members are preferring not to comment on most of these less than encouraging realities for the IA. This may not be an Indian news paper, but its great blunt, credible and useful information.

I liked the part where Janes makes clear that India achieved nothing in 2002 and was forced to withdraw but I was shocked at the figure of 473 Indian soldiers dead, 1401 wounded. And for what? Nothing… That’s more men than we lost in Kargil, and Indians in this very forum accuse us of being callous with the lives of our men but we never hear these figures mentioned by them.

The army has been subject to diminished morale following the 10-month debilitating operational deployment along the Pakistan frontier in 2002, with a growing number of suicides and murders resulting in a request that 400 psychiatrists be recruited specifically to treat troops suffering from psychological problems. Further disciplinary problems arose in the north-east and along the LOC. There has been a number of courts martial and boards of inquiry in 2006-2007 involving charges ranging from corruption to female harassment.

This would make sad reading for an Indian indeed. And this is no Pakistani analysis that Indians can just deny away. Fatman117 sir would love for you to continue. Hopefully some of my comments will generate a bit of a spark.

 

[fatman17]

Order of Battle
Command, Corps, Major Formations

Northern Command (Udhampur)
XIV Corps (Leh, Ladakh) - 3rd Inf div (leh); 8 Mtn div (Nimer)
XV Corps (Srinagar) - 19 Inf div (Baramulla); 28 Mtndiv (Gurais)
XVI Corps (Nagrota) - 10 Inf div (Akhnur); 25 Inf div (Rajouri); 39 Inf div (Yol)

Western Command (Chandimandir, Chandigarh)
X Corps (Bathinda) - 16 Inf div (Gobindgarh); 18 RAPID (Kota); 24 RAPID(Bikaner)
XI Corps (Jullunder/Jalandhar) - 7 Inf div (Ferozepur); 8 Inf div (Meerut); 15 Inf div (Amritsar)

Central Command (Lucknow)
I Corps (Mathura) - 31 Armd div (Babina); 4 Inf div (Allahabad); 6 Mtn div (Bereilly)
XII Corps (Jodhpur) - 11 Inf div (Ahmadabad); 12 Inf div (Jodhpur)
XXI Corps (Bhopal) - 33 Armd div (Fatehabad); 36 RAPID (Saugori); 54 Inf div (Secunderabad)

Eastern Command (Kolkata/Calcutta)
III Corps (Dimapur) - 23 Inf div (Ranchi); 57 Mtn div (Leimakhongi)
IV Corps (Tezpur) - 2 Mtn div (Dibrugarh(; 5 Mtn div (Guwahati); 21 Mtn div (Rangia)
XXXIII Corps (Siliguri) - 17 Mtn div (Gangtok); 20 Mtn div (Binaguri); 27 Mtn div (Kalimpong)

South-Western Command (Jaipur)
IX Corps (Yol, Himachal Pradesh) - 26 Inf div (Jammu); 29 Inf div (Pathankot)

Note: the Rashtriya Rifles in the territory of Kashmir has five counter-insurgency forces each of divisional size, with three brigade equivalents: V (South Kashmir valley); K (North Kashmir valley); D (Doda); R (Rajpuri); and U (Udhampur)

Special Forces
Special Forces consist of five para commando battalions:1,2,9,10 and 21 Para (SF) Battalions. Their role is to provide rapid reaction and counter terrorist forces, and to attack and disrupt enemy vital points lines of communication and command and control systems during conventional operations. At least one unit is trained in deep penetration operations.
There were plans to add another two SF battalions by late 2007, but it is nor clear whether this is to be achieved by converting two of the existing Parachute Regiment battalions which has been the origin of SF battalions so far.

Special Frontier Forces (SFF)
The Special Frontier Force (SFF) were originally raised from Tibetan refugees to conduct cross border operations against the Chinese in Tibet. About 10,000 strong, and still with a substantial ethnic tibetan element, it is still used principally for tasks on the Indo-Chinese border, although some elements have a wider counter terrorist role. it is responsible for the Cabinet secretariat.

Rashtriya (National) Rifles (RR)
The RR was authorised in 1990 as a "specialised army oriented" force to tackle insurgency, rear area security and special operations in Kashmir in order to free regular army units from frequent deployments on internal security duties.
In 2000 the government approved the raising of 30 more RR battalions, to bring the total strength to five force HQs, 17 Sector HQs and 66 RR Battalions by the year 2005. It appears the target has been met, but there are concerns over quality of personnel and the adequacy of training. There is an increasing number of substantiated allegations concerning human rights abuses committed by members of the RR in the Kashmir valley.
It has been reported that some units of the RR have been trained as SFs.

The Assam Rifles
The role of the Assam Rifles is to:
Conduct counter insurgency operations in the north-easr and other areas where deemed necessary, under control of the army.
During peace and "proxy war", ensure security of the Indo-China and Indo-Myanmar borders.
During war, provide rear area security.

The force consists of the Directorate General Assam Rifles at Shillong. two Inspectorate General, nine Range HQs and 41 battalions deployed in the north-eastern region and is the responsibility of the Ministry of Home Affairs. Most officers are seconded from the army, and the drain on the regular force has been considerable, leading to leadership deficiencies in both the army and the para-military forces.

 

[Vinod2070]

The Indian military may have its issues, which military doesn't?

The point is that it is more open about the issues than most others in the region. An absence of information from others doesn't necessarily mean that all is hunky dory.

But a great thread nevertheless. Thx. fatman sahib for the info.

 

[fatman17]

Army Aviation Order of Battle
The Army Aviation Corps Centre is at Nasik, Maharashtra. There are six Chetak sqdns and six Cheetah Sqdns at divisional level. There is a varying number of reconnaissance and observation flights, generally on detachment from parent sqdns. A further sqdn (201) is equipped with the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The Army Aviation does not have a attack role, and its efforts to acquire this capability have been thwarted by the air force.

Unit, Base, Type, Role
201 Sqdn - Bangalore - Dhruv - Attack / Utility
659 Sqdn - n/a - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
660 Sqdn - n/a - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
661 Sqdn - Jalandar - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
662 Sqdn - n/a - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
663 Sqdn - Chandigarh - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
665 Sqdn - n/a - Cheetah - Observation / Liaison
665 Sqdn - Chandigarh - Chetak - Observation / Liaison
666 Sqdn - Chandigarh - Cheetah - Onservation / Liaison (O and L)
3 Routing and Operations Flight (ROF) - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
4 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
6 ROF - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
7 ROF - Jammu and Kashmir - n/a - O and L
8 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
10 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
11 ROF - Nasik - Chetak - O and L
12 ROF - n/a - Chetak - O and L
14 ROF - Chandigarh - n/a - O and L
15 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
16 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
17 ROF - n/a - Chetak - O and L
18 ROF - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
21 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
22 ROF - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
23 ROF - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
25 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
30 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
31 ROF - n/a - Cheetah - O and L
32 ROF - n/a - n/a - O and L
Combat Air Training School - n/a - Cheetah - Training
Combat Air Training School - n/a - Chetak - Training

Notes:
Army Aviation has six Chetak Sqdns assigned to Corps HQs and six Chetak sqdns attached to Divisional HQs organisations. These 12 Sqdns are split into 38 Routing and Operational Floghts (ROFs), each with five helicopters; some of these elements are detailed above. Entry into service of the HAL Dhruv seems likely to result in the formation of new units, although only two have formed initially. the Army Aviation Corps Center is at Nasik.

 

[fatman17]

The Indian military may have its issues, which military doesn't?

The point is that it is more open about the issues than most others in the region. An absence of information from others doesn't necessarily mean that all is hunky dory.

But a great thread nevertheless. Thx. fatman sahib for the info.

fair point!

 

[Kasrkin]

The Indian military may have its issues, which military doesn't?

Ofcourse every military has problems. Just look at the Pakistan Army thread by Fatman117 and you'll see that the PA has a shortage of quality officers too. But the shortage is nowhere near as grave as in the IA. Same is the case with the seriousness of these wide-spread disciplinary and morale issues. The Janes article makes clear that the PA has good morale, unlike over here. Furthermore an objective study will indicate that the Indian media and press in general are more inclined to ignore/overlook/downplay their military's shortcomings than the Pakistani media which would absolutely pound on a case of intra-military sexual misconduct or excessive alcohol usage, etc. And the notion that the PA hides its problems as opposed to India is really vague, uneducated and does not stand up to an impartial evaluation. If you say that the PA might have the tendency to project itself inaccurately, then the IA certainly does too.

 

[Vinod2070]

If you say that the PA might have the tendency to project itself inaccurately, then the IA certainly does too.

I have no such intention. That won't give me any cause to rejoice either.

All I am saying is that many more of such facts are out in the open about the IA than any other army in the region. It may be due to the fact that IA has more of such issues. Likely it is much more open than the others.

But that is a side issue. We can move on now.

 

[Khajur]

The Indian military may have its issues, which military doesn't?

Ofcourse every military has problems. Just look at the Pakistan Army thread by Fatman117 and you'll see that the PA has a shortage of quality officers too. But the shortage is nowhere near as grave as in the IA. Same is the case with the seriousness of these wide-spread disciplinary and morale issues. The Janes article makes clear that the PA has good morale, unlike over here. Furthermore an objective study will indicate that the Indian media and press in general are more inclined to ignore/overlook/downplay their military's shortcomings than the Pakistani media which would absolutely pound on a case of intra-military sexual misconduct or excessive alcohol usage, etc. And the notion that the PA hides its problems as opposed to India is really vague, uneducated and does not stand up to an impartial evaluation. If you say that the PA might have the tendency to project itself inaccurately, then the IA certainly does too.

"Furthermore an objective study will indicate that the Indian media and press in general are more inclined to ignore/overlook/downplay their military's shortcomings..."


Kasrkin,
I dont think u follow indian media seriously.
And remember every short coming of indian militarty forces heatedly discussed on this forum are contributions of indian media.Even the jane magazine takes its cues from indian media sources.

 

[Khajur]

The Indian military may have its issues, which military doesn't?

Ofcourse every military has problems. Just look at the Pakistan Army thread by Fatman117 and you'll see that the PA has a shortage of quality officers too. But the shortage is nowhere near as grave as in the IA. Same is the case with the seriousness of these wide-spread disciplinary and morale issues. The Janes article makes clear that the PA has good morale, unlike over here. Furthermore an objective study will indicate that the Indian media and press in general are more inclined to ignore/overlook/downplay their military's shortcomings than the Pakistani media which would absolutely pound on a case of intra-military sexual misconduct or excessive alcohol usage, etc. And the notion that the PA hides its problems as opposed to India is really vague, uneducated and does not stand up to an impartial evaluation. If you say that the PA might have the tendency to project itself inaccurately, then the IA certainly does too.

"Furthermore an objective study will indicate that the Indian media and press in general are more inclined to ignore/overlook/downplay their military's shortcomings..."


Kasrkin,
I dont think u follow indian media seriously.
And remember every short coming of indian militarty forces heatedly discussed on this forum are mostly contributions of indian media.Even the jane magazine takes its cues from indian media sources.

 

[Kasrkin]

Kasrkin,
I dont think u follow indian media seriously.
And remember every short coming of indian militarty forces heatedly discussed on this forum are mostly contributions of indian media.Even the jane magazine takes its cues from indian media sources.

No, I'm aware of this fact. The Indian media is large and more settled compared to the Pakistani media. And yes indeed they do criticize things like procurement procedures, military development endeavors and bureaucratic shortcomings and all but there is great constriction when it comes to matters like the proportion, context and bearings of Indian military abilities and rash nationalistic tendencies almost always overpower objective morality evaluations as was proved in Kargil and later the Mumbai affair.

The Pakistani media on the other hand you have people coming on TV openly denouncing the PA as traitors and glorifying Anti-Army forces by referring to them as honorable self-defending citizens. Also Pakistani writers in general are MUCH more critical and cynical of the PA’s military performance than Indian news men ever were in Kargil or during the Kashmir insurgency. Like I said, I can’t even imagine how the Pakistani media would react if ever revelations of inner-forces sexual abuse or alcoholism materialize in the PA.

 

[RedBaron]

...
Just look at the Pakistan Army thread by Fatman117 and you'll see that the PA has a shortage of quality officers too. But the shortage is nowhere near as grave as in the IA.

Comparison is a tad unfair. For a true comparison, we have to wait till Pak economy posts 9% GDP growth with a booming private sector and multinationals competing for young educated professionals. I don't suppose that's the case today. Having said that, with the increasingly gloomy economy, it would be worth watching whether young Indians are again drawn to the Forces. GoI seems to be tone-deaf to pleas on compensation, so I don't expect too much on that front in the near-term.

 

[RedBaron]

...
And yes indeed they do criticize things like procurement procedures, military development endeavors and bureaucratic shortcomings and all but there is great constriction when it comes to matters like the proportion, context and bearings of Indian military abilities and rash nationalistic tendencies almost always overpower objective morality evaluations as was proved in Kargil and later the Mumbai affair.
...

There is definitely some hesitation in pro-establishment sections of the press, especially when operations are ongoing, like Kargil or Mumbai when its important for a nation to stand together. Once the dust settles down though, matters do get deconstructed, albeit not to a degree seen in the West.
E.g. I do recollect NDTV did pick up on the Operation Parakram findings...here's an old link: Defenceindia : News : Operation Parakram: Human costs outnumber Kargil

 

[Kasrkin]

Comparison is a tad unfair.

Ofcourse I know the situation differs greatly, but we're talking about their present shortcomings and/or capabilities. Your officer shortcomings are because of your booming economy ofcourse, but at the end of the day the results of this on your army’s standards are the same. I know the IA is taking this matter very seriously indeed.

There is definitely some hesitation in pro-establishment sections of the press

Now I think that’s a tad-bit unfair. This tendency is much more widespread and serious, and is certainly not limited to government affiliated outfits. Just look at the Indian Media’s Mumbai reaction, there were more fancy map plans to bomb Pakistan than there were questions about the governments security failures. Exact same was the case with Kargil, the government found it very easy to manipulate and stream line the Indian media into hate against Pakistan ensuring their own failings and mishandlings were ignored.

But the media is not the point here, most people will know what I mean when I say that the PAK media is almost out there to get the PA, more so than the Indian Media. If there were problems of this nature in the PA, then they would certainly be on the news with a bang trust me.

 

[RedBaron]

...
Now I think that’s a tad-bit unfair. This tendency is much more widespread and serious, and is certainly not limited to government affiliated outfits. Just look at the Indian Media’s Mumbai reaction, there were more fancy map plans to bomb Pakistan than there were questions about the governments security failures. Exact same was the case with Kargil, the government found it very easy to manipulate and stream line the Indian media into hate against Pakistan ensuring their own failings and mishandlings were ignored.

Remember it was the public outcry that led to the sacking of the Home minister, Maharashtra CM and DyCM, so Mumbai was different. Chidambaram admitted the lapses publicly. In Kargil, due to the remoteness and minimal impact to civilian population, public accepted the MoD findings/recommendations at face-value and moved on...I'm sure Mumbai has given the public and media a reality check.

But the media is not the point here, most people will know what I mean when I say that the PAK media is almost out there to get the PA, more so than the Indian Media. If there were problems of this nature in the PA, then they would certainly be on the news with a bang trust me.

Your frame of reference is different: Pak media is vociferous about PA only within the context of ongoing FATA/Swat operations. Do you have evidence of Pak media "getting at" PA prior to current crisis? AFAIK people believed Kargil was a military success for PA but the politicians let PA down, at least as long as Musharraf was in power. Once he stepped down, retired PA officers started discrediting this claim.