Why go for cobras, why not ground attack aircraft?

[AD101]

Dive bombing involves huge risk.Why would you want to risk the life of a pilot(which obviously is the most precious resource),when you can do the same job safely from 10 kms away.

If I was a general i would always prefer to sent a $50 million plane with precision guided weapons than a $1 million dive bomber,because the $50 million plane ensures the safe return of my pilot.

and what if we have got no $50 million than? Keep on asking americans for LGBs and JDAMs? BTW dive bombing involved risks of black out which can be solved through the use of G-suits and automatic pull up systems. And in Case of COIN, i have never seen a plane shot down by just pointing and shooting AK-47 in the sky. Even hundreds of bullets wont bring it down. A cobra straffing bullets is at much more risk than a stuka releasing its bomb at 1500 feet.

And if I am a General I would definitely not like to spend millions of dollars on one plane stripping me of resources from other important areas.

If it is a Bunker, what use does 2 or 3 aircraft, crude aircraft do, when you can drop one guided munition, bang on the bullseye, with a 95% + success rate?

2 or 3 will create a psychological impact which is called Shock and Awe. Remember hundreds of cruise missiles targetting Baghdad and other cities during desert storm. You can't create that type of Shock and Awe with Eurofighters or F-16s. You simply cant afford it. But those old screaming planes could do it for you. And you can achieve a high accuracy rate with dive bombing as well.

 

[AD101]

And please tell me if a pilot of a stuka while releasing its bomb at 1500 ft is at great risk than what about the pilots and gunners of cobras and apaches who are hovering in air shooting bullets and rockets at a mountain.

if an AK-47 and 12.7mm gun can shoot down a stuka than what about a cobra hovering at a few hundred feet?

 

[Tshering22]

Because gunships are more suitable for ground support not fast moving aircrafts..... also the only real COIN plane out there is the A-10 which is not manufactured anymore and is american made.... and is probably expensive n non available to Pakistan...

Well you could choose a Brazilian alternate. The Embraer EMB-314 is an awesome ground attack aircraft. It has been very successful against insurgencies in South America including war on drug cartels in the dense amazonian environment.

The aircraft has an excellent range, decent payload and is very effective. Not choosing the EMB-314 was the biggest mistake IAF made and chose the PC-7 instead. Since you have MAA-1 Piranha missiles from Brazil, Super Tucanos would be a good alternative.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

And please tell me if a pilot of a stuka while releasing its bomb at 1500 ft is at great risk than what about the pilots and gunners of cobras and apaches who are hovering in air shooting bullets and rockets at a mountain.

if an AK-47 and 12.7mm gun can shoot down a stuka than what about a cobra hovering at a few hundred feet?

Seriously u want junkers or stukas for COIN ops? lol... with ancient machine guns? as for a cobra... it has FLIR,laser dsgntrs, machine guns n missiles to send the bastard firing at em to hell...

Well you could choose a Brazilian alternate. The Embraer EMB-314 is an awesome ground attack aircraft. It has been very successful against insurgencies in South America including war on drug cartels in the dense amazonian environment.

The aircraft has an excellent range, decent payload and is very effective. Not choosing the EMB-314 was the biggest mistake IAF made and chose the PC-7 instead. Since you have MAA-1 Piranha missiles from Brazil, Super Tucanos would be a good alternative.

My frnd a fast moving plane isnt effect in COIN or CAS operations.. if PA wanted they would have armed the Mushaks with a similiar payload...

 

[mjnaushad]

Stuka still flying????

 

[AD101]

Seriously u want junkers or stukas for COIN ops? lol... with ancient machine guns? as for a cobra... it has FLIR,laser dsgntrs, machine guns n missiles to send the bastard firing at em to hell...

Brother definitely you gonna update the plane. You won't be using the rubber quality of 1941 you will be using rubber synthesized in 2012. But definitely you will put up the tyres. same thing for guns etc. And a 500 lb bomb hitting a target will definitely send a bastard to hell. I am advocating the technique and for the technique we have got the right plane. Won't have to do too much R & D but some changes will definitely be made.

Stuka still flying????

Nope, but in my opinion we should resurrect the old beauty

My frnd a fast moving plane isnt effect in COIN or CAS operations.. if PA wanted they would have armed the Mushaks with a similiar payload...

thats why i am supporting the idea of dive bomber. you will get the accuracy with a 90 degree dive without spending $70,000 on a JDAM.

 

[untitled]

Stuka still flying????

Here is a replica

 

[Jango]

2 or 3 will create a psychological impact which is called Shock and Awe. Remember hundreds of cruise missiles targetting Baghdad and other cities during desert storm. You can't create that type of Shock and Awe with Eurofighters or F-16s. You simply cant afford it. But those old screaming planes could do it for you. And you can achieve a high accuracy rate with dive bombing as well.

There was a pretty good reason why those sirens were put up in German dive bombers!!!

But that shock and awe is not needed against Taliban, in a small area, hidden in mountains.

Some jets going through that area, some artillery shelling can do the job of shock and awe as well.

That strategy tht you are talking about works against a army, a large number of people, in one area, but the TTP are not like that, they are scattered and in different places, they don't have a fixed headquarter , no nothing.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Can anyone tell me what versions of the Cobra are on order by the PA? AFAIK the PA operates the S/F variants and in regards to the Z/W versions i think there were some controversy over selling of them to Pakistan, I don't know if this was sorted out. And can you tell me if PA has any interest in the AH-64? As some of the platforms in use with PA are really getting on a bit and massively outdated in respect to modern platforms.

 

[AD101]

Can anyone tell me what versions of the Cobra are on order by the PA? AFAIK the PA operates the S/F variants and in regards to the Z/W versions i think there were some controversy over selling of them to Pakistan, I don't know if this was sorted out. And can you tell me if PA has any interest in the AH-64? As some of the platforms in use with PA are really getting on a bit and massively outdated in respect to modern platforms.

Any cobra PA will receive are going to be S/F. Forget about Z because even the US marines have just started to accept them.

 

[Free Soul]

Seriously u want junkers or stukas for COIN ops? lol... with ancient machine guns? as for a cobra... it has FLIR,laser dsgntrs, machine guns n missiles to send the bastard firing at em to hell...



My frnd a fast moving plane isnt effect in COIN or CAS operations.. if PA wanted they would have armed the Mushaks with a similiar payload...

This is not entirely true, a very fast jet is not suitable for CAS, Heli is not fast enough and cant manoeuvre fast enough, Irfan Baloch has linked past Posts/threads in this regard earlier in this thread, discussing in detail the topic in discussion. as follows

discussed in detail

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...eds-pakistan-army-aviation-2.html#post2673082

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...as-aircraft-needs-pakistan-army-aviation.html

 

[AD101]

This is not entirely true, a very fast jet is not suitable for CAS, Heli is not fast enough and cant manoeuvre fast enough, Irfan Baloch has linked past Posts/threads in this regard earlier in this thread, discussing in detail the topic in discussion. as follows

Bro this is a debate about feasibility of idea of using dive bombers over attack choppers or jets for CAS. We are not discussing about designs

 

[Free Soul]

Bro this is a debate about feasibility of idea of using dive bombers over attack choppers or jets for CAS. We are not discussing about designs

those threads are not just about designs.. bro

cheers
Ta

 

[Jango]

Can anyone tell me what versions of the Cobra are on order by the PA? AFAIK the PA operates the S/F variants and in regards to the Z/W versions i think there were some controversy over selling of them to Pakistan, I don't know if this was sorted out. And can you tell me if PA has any interest in the AH-64? As some of the platforms in use with PA are really getting on a bit and massively outdated in respect to modern platforms.

AFAIK, the Zulu versions are not up for export up until 2013.

ANd Pak Army has only S/F versions.