Why are we so adamant in our support for Palestine when they themselves support India against us?

[Naofumi]

You have to understand that religion is not the only determining factor.

It's not. Not even for Pakistanis (their feud with Afghans for example) but not ignorable either. Most of your allies in the region are Shi'as as a matter of fact.

 

[QWECXZ]

It's not. Not even for Pakistanis (their feud with Afghans for example) but not ignorable either. Most of your allies in the region are Shi'as as a matter of fact.

The Iraqi resistance groups and Hezbollah are Shia groups. Hamas is a Sunni group. Afghan Mujahids that we supported during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan were mostly Sunnis. Syria is a secular country. Bashar Assad's wife (Asma) is a Sunni Muslim.

The Republic of Azerbaijan which is a Twelver Shia country (the same as us), has never been an ally and it has strong military ties with Israel against us.

Anyway, the point of our discussion was that Pakistan should promote a narrative that is based on the Pakistani nationality. Not religion. They should tell their children about their achievements and cultural varieties. Religion is not a good glue for a nationality identity if you take it too seriously.

If I were a Pakistani, I told you what my narrative would be and I think it would be very effective for raising a patriotic child. As long as people feel proud of their own achievements and background, they won't look at others for associating themselves with them.

 

[nascar 42]

It's not. Not even for Pakistanis (their feud with Afghans for example) but not ignorable either. Most of your allies in the region are Shi'ites as a matter of fact.

I am not sure about this. Read the paper called 'The New Middle East Cold War' by Professor Gregory Gause, published by the Brookings Institute. He completely debunks the argument that alliances in the Middle East are created on basis of religious/sectarian identity. As for Iran's allies, let me explain below:

1- Hamas/Palestine : Exclusively Sunni Arab
2- Iraq: Shi'ite Arab
3- Lebanon: A heterogeneous country
4- Qatar: A Sunni monarchy allied more closely with Tehran than Gulf states.
5- Kuwait, Oman: Excellent relationship with both Iran and Saudi Arabia
6- Turkey: Again, allied more closely with Iran on many issues as compared to the Saudis
7- Syria: Sunni Arab majority, ruled by an Alewite

 

[Naofumi]

The Iraqi resistance groups and Hezbollah are Shia groups. Hamas is a Sunni group. Afghan Mujahids that we supported during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan were mostly Sunnis. Syria is a secular country. Bashar Assad's wife (Asma) is a Sunni Muslim.

The Republic of Azerbaijan which is a Twelver Shia country (the same as us), has never been an ally and it has strong military ties with Israel.

It's selective picking, Hamas got only you, Afghans had ethno-linguistic closeness to you (compared to Pashtuns), plus only support for Shi'as came from you.

Syria is not strictly secular - its dominated by Alawis in all power structures, its another matter if you count them as an ethnic group. Pakistan's founder wife was a Parsi, and Pakistan's first PM's wife was a Hindu, Pakistan's current PM had a Jewish wife, this proves nothing

Azerbaijan is practically atheist country due to USSR past plus Turkish speaking like your rival Turkey and close to it.​

 

[nascar 42]

It's selective picking, Hamas got only you, Afghans had ethno-linguistic closeness to you (compared to Pashtuns), plus only support for Shi'as came from you.

Syria is not strictly secular - its dominated by Alawis in all power structures, its another matter if you count them as an ethnic group. Pakistan's founder wife was a Parsi, and Pakistan's first PM's wife was a Hindu, Pakistan's current PM had a Jewish wife, this proves nothing

Azerbaijan is practically atheist country due to USSR past plus Turkish speaking like your rival Turkey and close to it.​

For Gods sake, Begum Rana Liaqat Ali Khan (wife of our first PM) was born a Christian, NOT a Hindu. Her family converted to Christianity before she was born.

 

[QWECXZ]

It's selective picking, Hamas got only you, Afghans had ethno-linguistic closeness to you (compared to Pashtuns), plus only support for Shi'as came from you.

Syria is not strictly secular - its dominated by Alawis in all power structures, its another matter if you count them as an ethnic group. Pakistan's founder wife was a Parsi, and Pakistan's first PM's wife was a Hindu, Pakistan's current PM had a Jewish wife, this proves nothing

Azerbaijan is practically atheist country due to USSR past plus Turkish speaking like your rival Turkey and close to it.​

Not correct. Hamas has Turkey and Qatar too. Hamas is close to Muslim brotherhood as well.

We supported Ahmad Shah Masoud and he was incredibly popular in Iran during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. He is a Sunni Muslim.
So the fact that Assad's wife is a Sunni Muslim doesn't count? Assad himself is a secular person in my opinion. Syria is a secular country. Assad is probably more secular than Erdogan.

Azerbaijan is not an atheist country. lol. Azeris are some of the most hardcore Shia people I have known in my life. Both from Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. They will cry their eyes out for Hussain.

And there's more. Oman, for example. We have had decades of alliance with them. They have always acted as a mediator between us and the US. And we trust them. What about them?

 

[Cliftonite]

Not correct. Hamas has Turkey and Qatar too. Hamas is close to Muslim brotherhood.
We supported Ahmad Shah Masoud and he was incredibly popular in Iran. He is a Sunni Muslim.
So the fact that Assad's wife is a Sunni Muslim doesn't count? Assad himself is a secular person in my opinion. Syria is a secular country.

Azerbaijan is not an atheist country. lol. Azeris are some of the most hardcore Shia people I have known in my life. Both from Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. They will cry their eyes out for Hussain.

And there's more. Oman, for example. We have had decades of alliance with them. They have always acted as a mediator between us and the US. And we trust them. What about them?

I'll be honest. Your Iranian nationalism is clouding your view. It's pretty clear to an outsider looking in, that Iran wants to create a Shia empire, using proxy powers of her own. It is a religion driven agenda. Iran is a theocracy.

 

[QWECXZ]

I'll be honest. Your Iranian nationalism is clouding your view. It's pretty clear to an outsider looking in, that Iran wants to create a Shia empire, using proxy powers of her own. It is a religion driven agenda. Iran is a theocracy.

How can you build an empire when you are not even a permanent member of the UNSC?

There is no doubt that we want to have influence in the region and we will continue to increase our influence in the region. But if we can have Sunni groups under our control as well, we will support them. We let Hamas live on its own when they didn't support Bashar Assad. They went to Turkey and Qatar. Then they realized that Turkey and Qatar would never support them like Iran did. Then they returned to Iran and begged us to help them. We asked them to stay out of the Syrian situation and accepted them again.

If any Sunni group asks us for help and we can have control over them, we will accept them. Shia groups are more loyal to Iran because they feel more vulnerable without Iran. That's why it's easier to trust them.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Anyway, the point of our discussion was that Pakistan should promote a narrative that is based on the Pakistani nationality. Not religion. They should tell their children about their achievements and cultural varieties. Religion is not a good glue for a nationality identity if you take it too seriously.

If I were a Pakistani, I told you what my narrative would be and I think it would be very effective for raising a patriotic child. As long as people feel proud of their own achievements and background, they won't look at others for associating themselves with them.

Islam was the raison d'etre for Pakistan.

Pakistan's founder wife was a Parsi,

Actually she converted to Islam on marriage to Quaid e Azam. Quaid e Azam was originally an Ismaili Shia, later on in life he became a Sunni Muslim, although he was not sectarian and viewed all as the same.

 

[Naofumi]

Not correct. Hamas has Turkey and Qatar too. Hamas is close to Muslim brotherhood as well.

We supported Ahmad Shah Masoud and he was incredibly popular in Iran during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. He is a Sunni Muslim.
So the fact that Assad's wife is a Sunni Muslim doesn't count? Assad himself is a secular person in my opinion. Syria is a secular country. Assad is probably more secular than Erdogan.

Azerbaijan is not an atheist country. lol. Azeris are some of the most hardcore Shia people I have known in my life. Both from Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. They will cry their eyes out for Hussain.

And there's more. Oman, for example. We have had decades of alliance with them. They have always acted as a mediator between us and the US. And we trust them. What about them?

Turkey and Qatar have got into the field now with Turkey receding now, you're their trusted, old and committed ally.
I admitted on Afghanistan part, you got their back - his being an ethnic Tajik had some weight.
Assad is secular or not, Syrian institution are dominated by Alawites. That's a fact.

You're wrong on Azerbaijani Azeris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

Oman is not ally strictly, a neutral observer is not an ally, they won't help you in Syria.

 

[Itachi]

Lmao.....every couple of months....we have this "Support Israel!" thread.

If you don't want to support Palestinians fine....don't. But don't peddle bs on the rest of Pakistan and Pakistanis trying to rally support for Israel.

 

[QWECXZ]

Islam was the raison d'etre for Pakistan.

I know. I have said it several times and Pakistanis have insulted me because of saying it.

Anyway, just because it was the reason for your independence, it doesn't mean that it has to define you. You need to promote Pakistani identity. You have a Nobel laureate who is quite well-known for his contributions to the unification of electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force and some of you guys loath him because you consider him an infidel! How ridiculous is that?!

 

[Itachi]

"We are supporting India in its fight against terrorism and because of that my government decided to directly call our ambassador to go back home, not to be Palestine ambassador to Pakistan anymore," Palestinian Ambassador to India Adnan Abu Al Haij said.

https://www.newsheads.in/world/news...Zr2HNlXuzcAl9lNS8yTey66yKWLCsG76ru1Uo806acEZQ

Let me get this straight, muslim countries like Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have diplomatic relations with Israel while we are one of the only few countries that do not even recognise Israel and for what?, Palestine supports India when it serves their interest, Saudi Arabia and UAE vetoes us in favor of India when it serves theirs while we are suppose to be good little muslims and support those who stab us in the back, harming our own self interest for them, why?

Fyi everyone...the source is Indian...and has been already posted on this forum and debated.

What a Palestinian Ambassador says won't change the stance Pakistan has on the matter. Opinions shift over time, the article is from 2017. Someone should ask the "Ambassador", if he's even still in office, what his opinion is today...

As for Turkey, they have diminished ties with Israel and started supporting Palestinians again.

 

[nascar 42]

It's selective picking, Hamas got only you, Afghans had ethno-linguistic closeness to you (compared to Pashtuns), plus only support for Shi'as came from you.

Syria is not strictly secular - its dominated by Alawis in all power structures, its another matter if you count them as an ethnic group. Pakistan's founder wife was a Parsi, and Pakistan's first PM's wife was a Hindu, Pakistan's current PM had a Jewish wife, this proves nothing

Azerbaijan is practically atheist country due to USSR past plus Turkish speaking like your rival Turkey and close to it.​

I have my problems with the Assad regime. Too much blood has been shed by them and the regime has to agree for a political solution and Bashar must be forced to step down. However, the argument that Syria is not a secular country and that 'all' power structures are dominated by Alewites is plain wrong. Kindly refer to these articles below for detail

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-assads-army-has-not-defected-15190
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/05/assads-sunni-foot-soldiers-syria/
https://carnegie-mec.org/2015/11/04/assad-s-officer-ghetto-why-syrian-army-remains-loyal-pub-61449

After reading these, you will realize that Syria is a complicated country and that the core of its army remains Sunni. There are plenty of examples of Sunnis in high positions. The most prominent one is the chief of the Syrian Arab Air Force, who has remained in the capacity since the start of the civil war. Note that the Syrian Air Force has been accused of war crimes and indiscriminate barrel bomb attacks on Sunni civlians. Yet, their chief is a Sunni.

Also, read up on Aleppo. The Sunni merchant class largely stayed loyal to Assad when the uprisings began. After clashes in the city, the rebels captured substantial portions of the city's eastern districts. It is important to note that much of the population in East of Aleppo was comprised of rural Sunnis who had migrated to the city fairly recently. The city's western half, which was comprised of the entrenched Sunni merchant classes, supported Assad till the end.

There is also a healthy representation of Christians in the Syrian government apparatus.

Again, I dont support the Syrian regime BUT it is neither completely Alewite and is most definitely secular,

 

[Itachi]

Anyway, just because it was the reason for your independence, it doesn't mean that it has to define you. You need to promote Pakistani identity. You have a Nobel laureate who is quite well-known for his contributions to the unification of electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force and some of you guys loath him because you consider him an infidel! How ridiculous is that?!

You can't stop "some" people from loathing someone. Just like "some" always have a wet spot for Israel since and before Pakistan. Welcome to reality.