Why are we so adamant in our support for Palestine when they themselves support India against us?

[QWECXZ]

Turkey and Qatar have got into the field now with Turkey receding now, you're their trusted, old and committed ally.
I admitted on Afghanistan part, you got their back - his being an ethnic Tajik had some weight.
Assad is secular or not, Syrian institution are dominated by Alawites. That's a fact.

You're wrong on Azerbaijani Azeris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

Oman is not ally strictly, a neutral observer is not an ally, they won't help you in Syria.

They tried Turkey and Qatar when the Syrian crisis started. They returned to us again.

There's a difference between asking people if religion is important in their life and asking if they are atheists. Many Iranians who are drunkards and ridicule rules like hijab beat their chests and cries their eyes out for Hussain. Ashura is not only a religious ceremony, it has become a tradition. Hussain has become like a legendary figure for Iranians because he didn't submit to bullying and he chose death over humiliation. It's a very complex ideological system to be honest.

The story of Ashura is pretty much like an older version of Game of Thrones for some less religious Iranians. It is a good story.

 

[Naofumi]

There's a difference between asking people if religion is important in their life and asking if they are atheists. Many Iranians who are drunkards and ridicule rules like hijab beat their chests and cries their eyes out for Hussain. Ashura is not only a religious ceremony, it has become a tradition. Hussain has become like a legendary figure for Iranians because he didn't submit to bullying and he chose death over humiliation. It's a very complex ideological system to be honest.

Have not met any Azerbaijanis in real life but the online ones are atheist/agnostic/irreligious and living under USSR definitely have its effects.

 

[QWECXZ]

You can't stop "some" people from loathing someone. Just like "some" always have a wet spot for Israel since and before Pakistan. Welcome to reality.

You are right. But you can at least address the issue and promote him as a role model. Find important figures and promote them. Besides Jinnah. Raise your children culturally in a way that if someone loathes someone like Abdus Salam, they defend him because he made your nation proud.

Have not met any Azerbaijanis in real life but the online ones are atheist/agnostic/irreligious and living under USSR definitely have its effects.

Tajikistan was under the Soviet influence too, but I can't say they are atheists. They are far from atheists.

 

[Naofumi]

Tajikistan was under the Soviet influence too, but I can't say they are atheists. They are far from atheists.

Majority of ex-Soviet Muslims are. Tajkistan is an interesting case - Islamism resurgence, lowest HDI etc. May have to do its treatment inside USSR.

 

[QWECXZ]

Majority of ex-Soviet Muslims are. Tajkistan is an interesting case - Islamism resurgence, lowest HDI etc. May have to do its treatment inside USSR.

What about Turkmenistan? They're also very religious. I don't think it's possible to give a general rule about Muslim states that became independent from the Soviet Union.

 

[Cliftonite]

@QWECXZ while you may be apt to criticize Pakistan, I hope you will accept mine and @Naofumi 's criticism of Iran too. You can't even argue that it's Pakistani bias because naofumi is Indian. Iran is one of the most theocratic and oppressive regimes for its citizens. Pakistan may be crazy religious but women are not jailed for not wearing hijab. And gays aren't executed in Pakistan. Unless you can acknowledge that, you are in no position to criticize other countries.

 

[Naofumi]

Again, I dont support the Syrian regime BUT it is neither completely Alewite and is most definitely secular,

It's secular to the extent of having non-Shari'a laws, inclusive of minorities (who btw fear Sunni extremists getting closer to power), there are Sunnis in his government simply because of the country being 85% Sunni BUT a very large chunk of Sunnis despise him, that's the nature of dictatorship - if it was not - he would have got free elections.

What about Turkmenistan? They're also very religious. I don't think it's possible to give a general rule about Muslim states that became independent from the Soviet Union.

Nope, they're not. Banned beards, wrote a new holy book "Ruhnama" - google it.

 

[QWECXZ]

@QWECXZ while you may be apt to criticize Pakistan, I hope you will accept mine and @Naofumi 's criticism of Iran too. You can't even argue that it's Pakistani bias because naofumi is Indian. Iran is one of the most theocratic and oppressive regimes for its citizens. Pakistan may be crazy religious but women are not jailed for not wearing hijab. And gays aren't executed in Pakistan. Unless you can acknowledge that, you are in no position to criticize other countries.

We don't jail people for not wearing hijab either. They go to a Morality Police department in their city and you will pay your fine by your credit card. Here's the Morality Police Office in Tehran, for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tehran's+Morality+Police/@35.7380954,51.4120785,15z

And the last time Iran executed gays according to the Amnesty International was in 1990s. And the identities of those people were never revealed. So, who knows? I'm sure there are more gay people in Iran than Pakistan and I think they are treated a lot better than in Pakistan by the society.

The whole point of my conversation, which I didn't even start it, was that Pakistan has to become a less religious society and does not think that it has to define itself with Islam because it was the main reason for the sovereignty of Pakistan today.

Nope, they're not. Banned beards, wrote a new holy book "Ruhnama" - google it.

And yet, according to the Wikipedia link you sent, 80% of them said that religion plays an important role in their life. So, yup.

 

[Cliftonite]

We don't jail people for not wearing hijab either. They go to a Morality Police department in their city and you will pay your fine by your credit card. Here's the Morality Police Office in Tehran, for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tehran's+Morality+Police/@35.7380954,51.4120785,15z

And the last time Iran executed gays according to the Amnesty International was in 1990s. And the identities of those people were never revealed. So, who knows? I'm sure there are more gay people in Iran than Pakistan and I think they are treated a lot better than in Pakistan by the society.

The whole point of my conversation, which I didn't even start it, was that Pakistan has to become a less religious society and does not think that it has to define itself with Islam because it was the main reason for the sovereignty of Pakistan today.

Since you're not accepting of criticism of Iran, well Pakistan'll become a less religious society when Iran decides to loosen up its crazy laws. Atleast we are a democracy and not a theocracy.

@Naofumi this one is a real Iranian nationalist, he wouldn't budge one bit from his Iran is great stance

 

[QWECXZ]

Since you're not accepting of criticism of Iran, well Pakistan'll become a less religious society when Iran decides to loosen up its crazy laws. Atleast we are a democracy and not a theocracy.

@Naofumi this one is a real Iranian nationalist, he wouldn't budge one bit from his Iran is great stance

Haha xD Come on. So, if Iran wants to remain a crazy state, that means Pakistan should remain a highly religious society too?

Anyway, the only thing that threatens the integrity of Pakistan is the overly religious image of Islam that you have inflicted upon yourself.

 

[Naofumi]

And yet, according to the Wikipedia link you sent, 80% of them said that religion plays an important role in their life. So, yup.

They invented their own brand, very state controlled, without beards, with a new holy book. They're not following Islam but indoctrinated into a new religion though Gulf must be funding $$$ there too.

 

[Cliftonite]

Haha xD Come on. So, if Iran wants to remain a crazy state, that means Pakistan should remain a highly religious society too?

Anyway, the only thing that threatens the integrity of Pakistan is the overly religious image of Islam that you have inflicted upon yourself.

Not really. Pakistan's deep state and military is too strong to let Pakistan disintegrate. There are more chancees of Iran buckling due to sanctions or going out in a full on war with Israel or USA.

My gripe is you can't throw stones when you live in a glass house. It's a FACT that Iran's law are far more theocratic and oppressive than Pakistan's laws. Pakistani people are hyper religious but the laws are relativley liberal compared to most Middle eastern countries. Remnant of the British Raj.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The whole point of my conversation, which I didn't even start it, was that Pakistan has to become a less religious society and does not think that it has to define itself with Islam because it was the main reason for the sovereignty of Pakistan today.

Not the topic of this thread.

 

[Naofumi]

@QWECXZ Do Iran have blasphemy laws?

 

[QWECXZ]

Not really. Pakistan's deep state and military is too strong to let Pakistan disintegrate. There are more chancees of Iran buckling due to sanctions or going out in a full on war with Israel or USA.

My gripe is you can't throw stones when you live in a glass house. It's a FACT that Iran's law are far more theocratic and oppressive than Pakistan's laws. Pakistani people are hyper religious but the laws are relativley liberal compared to most Middle eastern countries. Remnant of the British Raj.

I never said Pakistan would disintegrate. @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan said that Iran was a threat to the integrity of Pakistan. That's how all of this started in the first place. I replied to him by saying that the only threat to the Pakistani integrity is a highly religious society. Then it led to a series of discussions that Pakistan has to remain a religious society because it is the raison d'etre, et cetera, et cetera.

I agree that your laws are less oppressive than ours. But at the end of the day, you can have oppressive laws and don't execute them, and have secular laws and yet fail to honor them. It's good that your laws are better than ours, but when your people do not believe in those laws, it leads to Taliban banning women from getting education and shooting an activist in bright day (Malala Yousafzai).

@QWECXZ Do Iran have blasphemy laws?

I don't know what you mean by blasphemy laws.

Not the topic of this thread.

You got me involved in all this and now you say "not the topic of this thread"? You should've said that from the beginning. Not now.