Why Arabs lost all its wars to Israel despite outnumbering Israel in weapons and manpower?

[notorious_eagle]

If I were you, I would not engage with this gentlemen anymore,

He said some of the craziest stuff and then called me an extremist for simply looking up the event without impartial judgement. He is a defender of arab, hence all his view are biased, and if you keep arguing with him, it just went straight into a wall.

You can go with him about 100 post and not going anywhere, because for him, Egyptian did not lose that war, the Egyptian won and just let about 24,000 people die and capture just so Israel can save face lol is what he believe and nothing will change him from deviate from that.

I actually agree with you Sir, no point in engaging @hellfire as our friend has put out some very wild theories.

1973 was an Egyptian defeat by every standards. They failed to accomplish their objectives, the Egyptian Third Army was completely encircled and blocked off from any supplies and the road to Cairo was wide open for an Israeli Armored Assault. The Egyptians failed to build on the momentum they gained in their initial assault, which was quite good in my opinion and their golden moment was smashing the counterattack by the IDF 162nd Division. But than again, when they left the safety of their SAM Umbrellas they were rightly smashed by the IDF and IDAF from every direction. I don't know how Egyptians can claim a victory when they were at the mercy of the Israelis by the end of this war.

Another point i would like to make, which i believe nobody is talking about is the role of the Soviets. I strongly believe the Soviet threats played a bigger role in reigning in the Israelis than the Americans. The Soviets practically forced the Israelis to halt their advance and blackmailed them to let food/medical aid pass through to the Encircled Egyptian Army. The Soviets made their threats very clear when they placed their Airborne Divisions on Alert, and started moving Transport Aircraft to deploy these troops in the region, and on top of that deployed Naval Assets in the Mediterranean with authorization to Open Fire. This was by far the biggest threat to the Israelis, and rightly so they complied.

 

[Hellfire]

Another point i would like to make, which i believe nobody is talking about is the role of the Soviets. I strongly believe the Soviet threats played a bigger role in reigning in the Israelis than the Americans. The Soviets practically forced the Israelis to halt their advance and blackmailed them to let food/medical aid pass through to the Encircled Egyptian Army. The Soviets made their threats very clear when they placed their Airborne Divisions on Alert, and started moving Transport Aircraft to deploy these troops in the region, and on top of that deployed Naval Assets in the Mediterranean with authorization to Open Fire. This was by far the biggest threat to the Israelis, and rightly so they complied.

Yes. I have given the link on this in resources which emphasizes the point about Soviet threat of unilateral action which spurred americans. Am too lazy to write and cant spend much time here.... if had the time would have asked you how to be a registered professional here in the forum

I was teaching him war strategy and quoting Clausewitz and using it in Egyptian context on political level lol ....

 

[jhungary]

Absolutely, I saw his points against your post and understood ... had some spare time to chart out a long rebuttal to him, so I did .... for a few others

I was avoiding him. He has made a thread where he has actually posted nonsense and tried to justify it, but then the majority here is composed of those who keep publishing the nonsense and will argue over it. That is why you will see my posts are very few.

Unfortunately there are people supposedly professionals who have also got into it ...!! There is one particular member who is professing usage of Enhanced Radiation Weapons at the smallest point .....lol

Well, I do love a good argument based on historical facts and actual investigation of the incident, as I said to the other member, I have engage with productive argument to my friend, serving member and also folks here on PDF once in a while just to improve my knowledge, however, what I would absolutely not do is to have these type of argument to people see things solely on a certain perspective.

I have encounter these type of folks wherever I go, they tend to see thing a bit different than we do. I think it's okay to love your own country, but to set things up into that perspective is not necessary good to your own people, cos sometime people need to learn from their mistake, and if we start making excuse for what went wrong behind the scene, then we would be forever staying that place.

In short, let him immerse in his own world, we should better use our time than to go on and on with those people

I actually agree with you Sir, no point in engaging @hellfire as our friend has put out some very wild theories.

1973 was an Egyptian defeat by every standards. They failed to accomplish their objectives, the Egyptian Third Army was completely encircled and blocked off from any supplies and the road to Cairo was wide open for an Israeli Armored Assault. The Egyptians failed to build on the momentum they gained in their initial assault, which was quite good in my opinion and their golden moment was smashing the counterattack by the IDF 162nd Division. But than again, when they left the safety of their SAM Umbrellas they were rightly smashed by the IDF and IDAF from every direction. I don't know how Egyptians can claim a victory when they were at the mercy of the Israelis by the end of this war.

Another point i would like to make, which i believe nobody is talking about is the role of the Soviets. I strongly believe the Soviet threats played a bigger role in reigning in the Israelis than the Americans. The Soviets practically forced the Israelis to halt their advance and blackmailed them to let food/medical aid pass through to the Encircled Egyptian Army. The Soviets made their threats very clear when they placed their Airborne Divisions on Alert, and started moving Transport Aircraft to deploy these troops in the region, and on top of that deployed Naval Assets in the Mediterranean with authorization to Open Fire. This was by far the biggest threat to the Israelis, and rightly so they complied.

Quite right........

Another point I want to point out is that I actually saw the Egyptian have the command ability and level of organisation to overwhelm the Israeli. Many people say the Israeli leadership and command ability is a lot better than Egyptian, but I think this has not done the Egyptian justice, don't forget, they had their initial success early on with the war. The campaign is actually going smoothly against Israeli counterattacks, That in itself is a merit.

I am not going to say the Egyptian leadership is superior than the Israeli like someone claim here, but the leadership and unit command have been improved extraordinately since the 67 war. What let the Egyptian down is that the few faithful decision that the Egyptian high command made that basically seal the faith of the war.

 

[19887]

Egyptians are very smart people, Sadat himself said after the war that he can fight and defeat Usrael on its own - with proof; taking the Barlev line- but can not fight the US.. So what to do? Usrael had the totall full support of the US like if it was a US state, so better make peace, which was the aim from the beginning and without war, if Sinai was given back..then it took war, because the Usraelis were too arrogant and refused every peaceful attempt to let go of the Sinai, at the end of it Egypt Egypt gained much more than the Sinai Pininsula, it Got Billions of Dollars worth of aids and sophisticated American weapons and systems that were like some value plus for becoming American friends.

The other Arab states did not want to split Palestinian territories between them, it was a trap and they were aware of it.

Wtf man???
So many things wrong in one response
And you absolutely believe it, dude you're hallucinating!

 

[The SC]

A general question:

Why would Usrael treaten to use nuclear weapons if it was winning the war?
Since everyone knows it is the last resort of a nation and its armed forces on the brink of defeat.

 

[19887]

A general question:

Why would Usrael treaten to use nuclear weapons if it was winning the war?
Since everyone knows it is the last resort of a nation and its armed forces on the brink of defeat.

They exposed the nuclear missiles to American satellite,
So that the Americans stop the embargo they imposed on Israel and send them the weapons they bought.
The same americans who said to israel to avoid from launching a preemptive attack,even the israelis knew that the arabs were planned an attack,the same americans who said to israel to avoid from raising reserve......
usrael hhhhh

 

[The SC]

HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!..............................................................................................................................

 

[Amun]

I actually agree with you Sir, no point in engaging @hellfire as our friend has put out some very wild theories.

1973 was an Egyptian defeat by every standards. They failed to accomplish their objectives, the Egyptian Third Army was completely encircled and blocked off from any supplies and the road to Cairo was wide open for an Israeli Armored Assault. The Egyptians failed to build on the momentum they gained in their initial assault, which was quite good in my opinion and their golden moment was smashing the counterattack by the IDF 162nd Division. But than again, when they left the safety of their SAM Umbrellas they were rightly smashed by the IDF and IDAF from every direction. I don't know how Egyptians can claim a victory when they were at the mercy of the Israelis by the end of this war.

Another point i would like to make, which i believe nobody is talking about is the role of the Soviets. I strongly believe the Soviet threats played a bigger role in reigning in the Israelis than the Americans. The Soviets practically forced the Israelis to halt their advance and blackmailed them to let food/medical aid pass through to the Encircled Egyptian Army. The Soviets made their threats very clear when they placed their Airborne Divisions on Alert, and started moving Transport Aircraft to deploy these troops in the region, and on top of that deployed Naval Assets in the Mediterranean with authorization to Open Fire. This was by far the biggest threat to the Israelis, and rightly so they complied.

Hey mister THINK TANK.....my grandfather was in Suez during Israeli trial to invade it.....they get into their own stallengrad.....Every building,stone,tree or even the Air they breath ..... Attacked them .... Finally they failed to enter Suez....after their failure of approaching Ismaelia in the north.
The Israeli forces tried to surround 3rd Army...are surrounded as well.
The First photo for Israeli soldiers raising high the photo of Anwar Sadat after he saved their lives after agreeing on ceasefire.
As you know as a THINK TANK if you read Any Reliable source or even neutral source about October War....you will know about SHAMEL plan that was set by Egyptian leaders to destroy the Israeli forces west the canal....also if you read what Sadat wrote in his diary that he told Kessenger (US minister of foreign affairs) that he will bomb Suez and the area including Israli and Egyptian forces to smash and destroy them all Egyptians and Israeli.....Kessenger said US will not allow that to happen.

About their road that opened to Cairo...do you know what are you talking about....Israelis are more smart than that....they will not step in a foot near Cairo as they know its population and they will sink to their knees (that if your words are true that their is no forces on their way to Cairo which is not true) The republican guards are all in Cairo and they equal the 3rd Army with more sophisticated weapons......there are also 400 Tanks Egypt get by Algeian money just outside Suez....also there was other Arabic forces.

Also you have to know why Egyptains Moved outside the safety of SAM umbrella .... It was to decrease the pressure on Syrian forces in Golan Hieghts.

About the support of super powers...
Do you know about that plan in the photo....google it.....and you will know that it belongs to US and flied all over the canal front and supplied the image to your beloved Israel so they know about the gap between 2nd and 3rd army....and there was no Air defense in Egypt can shoot it down at that time.

Finally Egypt get what it want....we want our land back...and we get it...and as you know Israel is not a charity org. For lands they occupy.
Another Image for Egyptian chelderns playing over a destroyed Israeli tank...I did that my self on the top of Israli tanks destroyed out side Suez.

 

[The SC]

@ the OP
Read this, it is a great summary and a good read for anyone interested in military science and strategy.
Maybe the title of the thread should be changed afterward:

THE CROSSING OF THE SUEZ CANAL, OCTOBER 6,1973
(THE RAMADAN WAR)
BY
BG HAMDY SOBHY ABOUSEADA
Egyptian Army
I DISTRIBUTION STATEMENT A:
Approved for Public Release.
Distribution is Unlimited.
USAWC CLASS of 2000

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

.

The Lockheed SR-71 "Blackbird"
A Secret mission by a U.S. Air Force SR-71 during the Yom Kippur War in 1973. It was written by Col. Jim Wilson, a former Blackbird pilot who has written self-biography titled “SR-71 Mission to the Middle East”.
https://theaviationist.com/2013/09/01/declassified-sr-71-mix/

Egypt and Arab didn't fight Israel forces alone since Israel hasn't never been alone during its conflicts vs Arab.

It seems that many here have never heard about it before!
Neither heard about Operation Nickel Grass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

A new American tank cut only 220 km only in Sinai captured by Egyptian troops.


Also, They probably never heard about The 1973 oil crisis began in October 1973 when the members of the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries (OAPEC, consisting of the Arab members of OPEC plus Egypt and Syria) proclaimed an oil embargo.

Which by the end of the embargo in March 1974, the price of oil had risen from US$3 per barrel to nearly $12 globally; US prices were significantly higher. The embargo caused an oil crisis, or "shock", with many short- and long-term effects on global politics and the global economy. It was later called the "first oil shock", followed by the 1979 oil crisis, termed the "second oil shock."

But of course, many idiots want to believe that Arab can't fight neither win and they just take what western powers accept to give!

EAF vs IAF

 

[Beny Karachun]

poor training of arabs and full US support for israel

Arabs were trained by the USSR and even North Korea

Israel was not backed at all by the US in 1967, neither it was fully supported in 73.

The Lockheed SR-71 "Blackbird"
A Secret mission by a U.S. Air Force SR-71 during the Yom Kippur War in 1973. It was written by Col. Jim Wilson, a former Blackbird pilot who has written self-biography titled “SR-71 Mission to the Middle East”.
https://theaviationist.com/2013/09/01/declassified-sr-71-mix/

Egypt and Arab didn't fight Israel forces alone since Israel hasn't never been alone during its conflicts vs Arab.

It seems that many here have never heard about it before!
Neither heard about Operation Nickel Grass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

A new American tank cut only 220 km only in Sinai captured by Egyptian troops.


Also, They probably never heard about The 1973 oil crisis began in October 1973 when the members of the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries (OAPEC, consisting of the Arab members of OPEC plus Egypt and Syria) proclaimed an oil embargo.

Which by the end of the embargo in March 1974, the price of oil had risen from US$3 per barrel to nearly $12 globally; US prices were significantly higher. The embargo caused an oil crisis, or "shock", with many short- and long-term effects on global politics and the global economy. It was later called the "first oil shock", followed by the 1979 oil crisis, termed the "second oil shock."

But of course, many idiots want to believe that Arab can't fight neither win and they just take what western powers accept to give!

EAF vs IAF

Wow! one picture of Israeli jet downed against over 500. very nice.

 

[Arthur]

"Decisively lost" will be a more apt choice of words I think!

 

[jamal18]

If you people really want to know about the war, read the Ramadan war by gen. Gamasy. He was the Egyptian chief of operations during the war. He also covers the six day war.

Instead of the comics the western press put out.

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

Israel was not backed at all by the US in 1967, neither it was fully supported in 73..

Hahah .. yeah right!
Even with the added links!
Don't let me even start with Henry Kissinger's role during the conflict

Wow! one picture of Israeli jet downed against over 500. very nice.

It seems that this photo hurt your feeling!
Actually there are many pictures you know that ..
And everyone knows that Most of IAF victoris over EAF especially in 1967 happened while Egyptian aricrafts were on ground!
5/6/1967 was our "peral harbour in ww2"!

What matters what happened next ..
It was quiet an achievments that EAF went through a massive construction program to build new air bases in order to increase its survivability. The EAF was the first branch of the Egyptian armed forces to achieve full combat readiness in short time.

It was quiet an achievments what EAF manged to accopmlish with low graded aircrafts vs more advanced ones
We were the ones who shot down Mirage-3 and F-4 phantom by just Mig-21

The IAF did not operate freely and did not have complete air supremacy it enjoyed during the previous conflict, the 1967 war. Egyptian MiGs were used with better efficiency than before which included the tactics and lessons learned from the 1967 war.

Do not underestimate other's accomplishments since learing from your mistakes makes you better .
It was during this war that the EAF applied the lessons it earlier learnt from the Israelis. A 32-year-old deputy MiG-21 regiment commander who has been flying since he was 15 recalls: "During the war of attrition, the Israeli air force had a favorite ambush tactic", he told Aviation Week and Space Technology. "They would penetrate with two aircraft at medium altitude where they would be quickly picked up by radar, We would scramble four or eight to attack them. But they had another dozen fighters trailing at extremely low altitude below radar coverage. As we climbed to the attack they would zoom up behind and surprise us. My regiment lost MiGs to this ambush tactic three times. But we learned the lesson and practiced the same tactics. In the final fights over Deversoir, we ambushed some Mirages the same way, and my own 'finger four' formation shot down four Mirages with the loss of one MiG.

Israeli Mirage III shot down by Egyptian MiG-21 during October war

 

[Tiger Genie]

I think it is everything to do with the Isreali spirit and will being stronger and feeling nobler than the Arabs.
Add to that the fact , which is still true today, the Israelis are smarter and more innovative than almost all other races, especially the Arabs. Look at how many innovations and inventions Israelis accomplished and accomplish. And it cannot be denied that Israelis learnt and improved structural organization from Americans as well.