Why Arabs lost all its wars to Israel despite outnumbering Israel in weapons and manpower?

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Why do you think Arab armies despite being united for once, couldn't defeat a tiny country like Israel? Despite arab armies being heavily backed by USSR in Yom Kippur war, couldn't dent Israel??


Arabs had infact superior artillery and equipment, and larger no. of tanks and man power. Still Israel humiliated them???




What's the biggest reason for their defeats in all the wars (Yom Kippur, 6Day war etc.) ?? And even if u say that US backed Israel it gets countered as USSR heavily backed Arabs and provided them with SAM batteries but they still couldn't do sh*t and Arab plans were target practice for the Israeli Mirages.


So, thoughts?? Have the Arabs lost the art of War and became too soft or horrible tactics or what??

The answer to all the question are in this video !!!

 

[Super Falcon]

Problem was ARABS don't have better commanders nor a better mind and plabers and above it their ego of numbers

Training played it's part even today they have best jets but worst pilots in the world they only issue is they don't take it seriously

Yes it was a resupply from USA helped Israelis

But they can asked USSR too they need better air defence system if any country had MIG 31 in that time they could have intercepted USA resupply cargos C7 Aircrafts in result they couldn't got any resupply

Lack of air cover and training of pilots took them to defeat

Egypt became slave of Israel after assassination of President till today

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

Stupidity has no limits!
Every while there a shitty thread like this only to bash Arab people .. nothing more!

Your ignorance about what REALLY happened though posing that you know it all just make you stupid ..

Egypt went to war back in 1973 knowing that we couldn't wage a full scale war against Israel and USA ..
Israel had the longest arm in the Air power with F-4 phantom the backbone of its arsenal .
Egypt only had Mig-21 to fight with .. Many were went down during combats only because they ran out of fuel!

Same with artillery, tanks , APC, AD .
Israel had the upper hand in range, firepower and more ..

Plan wasn't ever to clean Sinai from Israeli troops within days or months.
We knew our capabilities and knew theirs ..
Israel as a small country with its working-class are much of its population .. Thus Israel couldn't and ever can't be able to survive a long war .

Egypt's plan was to end the state of "No peace No war" by occupying 15 km of the East bank only the rang that AD could cover .. If Egypt had more sa-6 the plan could have changed to go deeper in Sinai peninsula.

Egypt's plan went to Action and despite all reports and what so called facts like the "impossibility to go through barliv line even with nuclear blast"! we managed to do more with only water cannons.

Read about the Egyptian victories through all the battles they fought against Israel during the first week of the war .
Things were changed only when Sadat politcally interfered into the military actions despite all the disapproves by the war cabinet.

In the end Israel failed to capture neither Ismailia nor Suez , and even with its circulation of the 3rd army .. Israeli troops were encircled itself by the Egyptian and Arab reservations.

All those years post war and peace agreement. Egypt now has a powerful armed forces for example its AF has these in its arsenal :
Mirage-2000
F-16 block 52
Rafael
Mig-35
Su-35


The next months It's navy will receive two Mistral LHD with 50+ ka-52
4 type 209/1400

Keep trolling Egypt and Arab while they building their countries economically and militarily despite all the proxy wars that put the region on fire.

 

[The SC]

You want a tactical analysis or a political analysis??

Tactically, the Arabs have committed a major mistake during the 67 and 73 war, and that is they fed into Israel piecemeal.

In short (It's 4 am here)

in 67, the responsibility to destroy Israel is not shared within the Arab alliance, it's basically an Egyptian led operation, Jordanian and Syrian (Also other minor player) are in a supporting mode. Israel saw that and they simply destroy the Egyptian Air Force, which formed the backbone of Egyptian military might, and once that is gone, the Egyptian ground force would simply raped by IAF.


in 73, Egyptian improved the communication, and was actually winning in the first stage of Yom Kippur War, but what the Israel do is simply put the Sinai front on hold, and focus on their eastern neighbour, defeated Syria first , then Jordan, Iraq and Other minor player in Golan, only then they force Egyptian hand and engage and destroy the Egyptian and reverse their fortune.

In short, Egyptian should use the strategy they use in 73 to fight the 67 war, and the 67 strategy to fight the 73 war.

Politically, the Arab alliance does not quite trust each other, Egyptian was not in a way of trusting the Syrian to fill their promise in after they conquer Israel in 6 days war, which Syrian were to only occupied Golan Height and part of Jerusalem, they want to go in first and thus they decided to engage the Israeli even tho their Air Force in that region were almost completely destroyed.

In Yom Kippur War, the Egyptian stance changed, and they fought overcaution even when they are winning the war. Thus they let the Israeli to have a breather and they allow the Israeli to neutralise their eastern threat first, and rushed into battle once the eastern flank are in danger of collapsing.

That is a nutshell, and if you want, I can give you a more detail analysis tomorrow.

In 67 Egypt alone had a far superior airforce than Israel.. 400 new Egyptian aircrafts were destroyed on the ground in a "preventive"!!! strike by Usrael..

In 1973 the arabs overwhelmed Usrael so much in the first stages of the war that they had to stop for a while because that is not what they have expected, for example, the Egyptians have thought of loosing up to 20 000 soldiers to get through the Barlev line - the stronget military line in the world at that time..they have lost 200..
The syrians took back the Golan Heights and the Mount Hermon in 48 hours , they marched toward Usrael..there was no opposition and they got orders to stop their advance.. Usrael (USA+Israel) took advantage of this..
On the Sinai front , Sadat changed the plans and ordered a full brigade to advance further..with no air cover! which was not planned at all, and with all the supplies that Usrael was getting from uncle SAM, it couldn't do anything more but lie about the outcome , athough it was more political and diplomatic after the overwhelming Arab victories.. The Syrians stopped the advances of Usraeli troops at the Syrian borders, and the Egyptian second army has defeated all Usraeli attempts to encircle it or the 3rd army..." I that case I do not know who was surrounding whom" General Sharon said after the war..Goda Mayer the then prime minister of Usrael was cryind and saying "this is the end of Usrael",
So What does anyone need to understand that the Arabs won that war and were convinced to let Usrael breath, in an international understanding that will get the Sinai pininsula back through diplomatic means , which sadat was asking for before he went to war, but since diplomacy failled at that time war was the only pressure that could convince Usrael of the real arab strength and to make her change her mindset facing real death of its entity..
I have seen most Usraelis comments on this thread, either they are not educated enough about these matters or they are lying about facts..

 

[jhungary]

In 67 Egypt alone had a far superior airforce than Israel.. 400 new Egyptian aircrafts were destroyed on the ground in a "preventive"!!! strike by Usrael..

In 1973 the arabs overwhelmed Usrael so much in the first stages of the war that they had to stop for a while because that is not what they have expected, for example, the Egyptians have thought of loosing up to 20 000 soldiers to get through the Barlev line - the stronget military line in the world at that time..they have lost 200..
The syrian took back the Golan Heights an the Mount Hermon in 48 hours , they marched toward Usrael..there was no opposition and they got orders to stop their advance.. Usrael (USA+Israel) took advantage of this..
On the Sinai front , Sadat changed the plans and ordered a full brigade to advance further..with no air cover! which was not planned at all, and with all the supplies that Usrael was getting from uncle SAM, it couldn't do anything more but lie about the outcome , athough it was more political and diplomatic after the overwhelming Arab victories.. The Syrians stopped the advances of Usraeli troops at the Syrian borders, and the Egyptian second army has defeated all Usraeli attempts to encircle it or the 3rd army..." I that case I do not know who was surrounding whom" General Sharon said after the war..Goda Mayer the then prime minister of Usrael was cryind and saying "this is the end of Usrael",
So What does anyone need to understand that the Arabs won that war and were convinced to let Usrael breath, in an international understanding that will get the Sinai pininsula back through diplomatic means , which sadat was asking for before he went to war, but since diplomacy failled at that time war was the only pressure that could convince Usrael of the real arab strength and to make her change her mindset facing real death of its entity..
I have seen most Usraelis comments on this thread, either they are not educated enough about these matters or they are lying about facts..

Is this a joke or you really want me to comment on this??

I am a student of War, a student of History, what I am not is a student of fanaticism. You can have your own view about how this war is being fought. but please do me a favour, do not quote me again with this BS....

 

[The SC]

Is this a joke or you really want me to comment on this??

I am a student of War, a student of History, what I am not is a student of fanaticism. You can have your own view about how this war is being fought. but please do me a favour, do not quote me again with this BS....

Well you have said it yourself, you are still a student, so do not bother answering this before you become a researcher in miltary and strategic matters..
I have quoted you because it was inline with what you seemd to have understood from those conflicts, or the lack of understaning, because what you have said is in most media, but you have to go deeper, read books and specialised magazines and scholarly article about the matter at hand, compare the sources and then state the facts as they really are..
Sorry for quoting you..
Your comments are still wellcome, but do not get mad if this matter is beyond your understanding of facts, the Arab civilization and the context in time and space, the facts on the terrain of war..

 

[jhungary]

Well you have said it yourself, you are still a student, so do not bother answring this before you become a researcher in miltary and strategic matters..
I have quoted you because it was inline with what you seemd to have understood from those conflicts, or the lack of understaning, because what you have said is in most media, but you have to go deeper, read books and specialised magazines and scholarly article about the mather, compare the sources and then state the facts as they really are..
Sorry for quoting you..
Your comments are still wellcome, but do not get mad if this matter is beyond your understanding of facts, the Arab civilization and the context in time and space, the facts on the terrain of war..

So, I am a student, that make what you said make any sense??

I graduated from University of Colorado in Boulder with a Bachelor Degree in International Politics in 2000

I then enlisted and commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant via ROTC/OCS in 2001.

I was then deployed to Iraq and fought all the way from Kuwait to Baghdad leading a platoon of 43 men with the 3d ID in 2003.

I was then promote to 1st Lieutenant and transferred to Special Reconnaissance Platoon in 2004.

I completed Jump School and Ranger School in 2004.

Promote to Captain in the US Army in 2005, the same years I was transferred to Military Intelligence Brigade. In charge of a Com-Center coordinate action between SF group deployed in Afghanistan, detached with NSA operation in Central Asia

I was honourably discharged from the US Army as a Captain in 2006.

I then work with KBR and DCATS in the UK as an intelligence specialist

I was then completed a Master in International Business degree with International College of Management, Sydney in 2014

I am currently in a research program on MPhil/PhD in Economic with the University of Melbourne.

So, may I know what is your qualification to say my word is shit and your BS is good?? You must have unlimited knowledge on Military and fought in uncounted conflict to be call yourself any "Authority" in the field of Military Science.

So, if I call you on these type of thread,

https://defence.pk/threads/jhungary-on-warfare-part-1-principles-of-war.432599/

You would be able to converse with me with real military science sense??

 

[The SC]

@jhungary

If you know Sun Tzu that will be good..
Me it is just military engineering (Civil and unified Engineering), much more in reality but do not like to talk about myself too much. For this matter of the october war 1973 and most Arab -Usraeli conflicts I have dedicated more than 25 years in research..going from WW2 to recent conflicts and wars analysis. You to have no idea of what went behind the scenes, what was covered and disovered later on..
To make it short, there are a whole lot of threads on this same subject on PDF where you can see my posts, with facts and sources..

 

[Solomon2]

So, I am a student, that make what you said make any sense??

I graduated from University of Colorado in Boulder with a Bachelor Degree in International Politics in 2000

I then enlisted and commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant via ROTC/OCS in 2001.

I was then deployed to Iraq and fought all the way from Kuwait to Baghdad leading a platoon of 43 men with the 3d ID in 2003.

I was then promote to 1st Lieutenant and transferred to Special Reconnaissance Platoon in 2004.

I completed Jump School and Ranger School in 2004.

Promote to Captain in the US Army in 2005, the same years I was transferred to Military Intelligence Brigade. In charge of a Com-Center coordinate action between SF group deployed in Afghanistan, detached with NSA operation in Central Asia

I was honourably discharged from the US Army as a Captain in 2006...

Thank you for your service.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary

If you know Sun Tzu that will be good..
Me it is just military engineering (Civil and unified Engineering), much more in reality but do not like to talk about myself too much. For this matter of the october war 1973 and most Arab -Usraeli conflicts I have dedicated more than 25 years in research..going from WW2 to recent conflicts and wars analysis. You to have no idea of what went behind the scenes, what was covered and disovered later on..
To make it short, there are a whole lot of threads on this same subject on PDF where you can see my posts, with facts and sources..

dude, I am not the one that blub out BS like what you just said 3 post ago.

And seeing that I am just a student and you are a master, so what you spill out must be correct then...

25 years of research on WW2 til now and you spill out this kind of shit.........lol, sorry to tell you, but you have just wasted the last 25 years.

Maybe you should stop talking crap and let's discuss ourselves some Military History and Military Science. Where you want to start? We can do this at any level, you want to talk about Logistic?

https://defence.pk/threads/a-closer-look-on-performance-based-logistic.358426/
https://defence.pk/threads/warfighting-capability-and-power-projection.361655/
https://defence.pk/threads/a-brief-view-on-combat-logistic-support.356284/

or do you want to talk about Battlefield Management?

https://defence.pk/threads/concept-of-operation-for-battlefield-and-battlespace.412762/
https://defence.pk/threads/battlefield-management.384479/

or do you want to talk about Military Science?

https://defence.pk/threads/modern-warfare-1gw-to-4gw.385646/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-special-operation.382458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-warfare-tactics-and-doctrine.368458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-airborne-warfare-doctrines-and-tactics.368454/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-amphibious-assault-warfare-tactics-and-doctrines.362491/
https://defence.pk/threads/doctrine-and-tactical-development-in-war-science.351869/

or technology??

https://defence.pk/threads/stealth-vs-jammer-the-airsea-battle-concept.425875/

How about military History?

https://defence.pk/threads/battle-and-combat-history-series.286181/

Oh well, if I want to build a bridge, I may look you up, if I want to piss under a bridge, I will look you up, but we are talking about Military Science. And what you said does not make sense in actual combat. Do you even know how to get out of an Ambush alive?

lol........if this is how its goes then forgive me, master, I bow before your military knowledge

Thank you for your service.

You're welcome

 

[The SC]

dude, I am not the one that blub out BS like what you just said 3 post ago.

And seeing that I am just a student and you are a master, so what you spill out must be correct then...

25 years of research on WW2 til now and you spill out this kind of shit.........lol, sorry to tell you, but you have just wasted the last 25 years.

Maybe you should stop talking crap and let's discuss ourselves some Military History and Military Science. Where you want to start? We can do this at any level, you want to talk about Logistic?

https://defence.pk/threads/a-closer-look-on-performance-based-logistic.358426/
https://defence.pk/threads/warfighting-capability-and-power-projection.361655/
https://defence.pk/threads/a-brief-view-on-combat-logistic-support.356284/

or do you want to talk about Battlefield Management?

https://defence.pk/threads/concept-of-operation-for-battlefield-and-battlespace.412762/
https://defence.pk/threads/battlefield-management.384479/

or do you want to talk about Military Science?

https://defence.pk/threads/modern-warfare-1gw-to-4gw.385646/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-special-operation.382458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-warfare-tactics-and-doctrine.368458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-airborne-warfare-doctrines-and-tactics.368454/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-amphibious-assault-warfare-tactics-and-doctrines.362491/
https://defence.pk/threads/doctrine-and-tactical-development-in-war-science.351869/

or technology??

https://defence.pk/threads/stealth-vs-jammer-the-airsea-battle-concept.425875/

How about military History?

https://defence.pk/threads/battle-and-combat-history-series.286181/

Oh well, if I want to build a bridge, I may look you up, if I want to piss under a bridge, I will look you up, but we are talking about Military Science. And what you said does not make sense in actual combat. Do you even know how to get out of an Ambush alive?

lol........if this is how its goes then forgive me, master, I bow before your military knowledge



You're welcome

I do not boost my knowlege like you are doing, it is a sign of arrogance and inferiority complex.. all what you have said is writen in specialized books or scholarly articles.. do you know how many theories and counter theories on those subjects exist? speaking about ambush. do you really know what happened to you in Irak and Afghanistan, could the US have won against Germmany in WW2 on its own?
You come up with history and some technical books and articles..and you think you are the author?
I want you to tell me what you know about the 73 Arab-Usraeli conflict, that is the ppoint here and now, the other topics will be discussed in time..

 

[jhungary]

I do not boost my knowlege like you are doing, it is a sign of arrogance and inferiority complex.. all what you have said is writen in specialized books or scholarly articles.. do you know how many theories and counter theories on those subjects exist? speaking about ambush. do you really know what happened to you in Irak and Afghanistan, could the US have won against Germmany in WW2 on its own?
You come up with history and some technical books and articles..and you think you are the author?
I want you to tell me what you know about the 73 Arab-Usraeli conflict, that is the ppoint here and now, the other topics will be discussed in time..

First of all, I did not "BOOST" anything, in fact, you boosted yours before by saying that my view are generally for uneducated or those who bought their lies.

I did not wrote to please anybody, nor have an nationalistic argument, I study war, I planned actual operation, i am neither Jewish nor Muslim, I study war for war, you and I were at different level.

And lol, you try to talk sense between WW2 and Iraq and Afghanistan? You seems to forgot I was actually in both Iraq and Afghanistan and where you are sitting in front of a TV. Do you even know how war is like over there or at anywhere at all? And about WW2, try ask yourself this question could Allied won WW2 without the US??

And trying to claim what I wrote was already written in specialised book or scholarly article is simply pathetic. I don't read much of anything else, you can run my article on any plagiarism detection software and if it come up with a hit, I will physically send you $100 bucks.

Plus what I am talked about is to discuss the issue on the article I raise, I did a lot of talks and discussion with both serving and former military officers as well as with PDF member here such as @AUSTERLITZ @Levina or @Slav Defence . I am asking you to DISCUSS that with me, not writing anything, if you claim I copy idea from someone, then I should not be able to come up with my own idea and discuss the issue at hand. So what are you waiting for, let's get on some discussion rather then talking trash here.

lol, are you afraid to talk about real military issue? Mr Military Engineer?

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

.......
So What does anyone need to understand that the Arabs won that war and were convinced to let Usrael breath, in an international understanding that will get the Sinai pininsula back through diplomatic means , which sadat was asking for before he went to war, but since diplomacy failled at that time war was the only pressure that could convince Usrael of the real arab strength and to make her change her mindset facing real death of its entity..

That's well summed up.
The plan was to force the big powers in the world to negotiate to give back the occupied Arab lands.
And the only way to do so was "War" force Israel and the Americans to realize that occupying Sinai was not going to be a source of safety or stability to Israel and that the Egyptians were never going to accept what had happened in 1967

Many here know nothing about the battles that happened pre-1973 war
Know nothing regarding a whole war called "War of Attrition" 1967 to 1970 when Egyptians believed that only military initiative would compel Israel or the international community to facilitate a full Israeli withdrawal from Sinai

This war was characterized by large-scale shelling along the Suez Canal, extensive aerial warfare and commando raids , These are some defining days of the war:

October 21, 1967 Egyptian Navy sank the Israeli destroyer INS Eilat with anti-ship missiles, killing forty-seven sailors .. It was just unprecedented to sink a destroyer by an anti-ship missile.
Israel's response was its artillery bombarded oil refineries and depots near Suez. which led to heavy Egyptians civilian casualties. then Egypt evacuated a large number of the civilian population in the canal region.

December 9, 1969: Egyptian aircraft, with the assistance of newly delivered P-15 radars, defeats the Israelis in an aerial engagement, shooting down two Israeli Mirages. Later in the evening, an Egyptian fighter flown by Lt. Ahmed Atef shot down an Israeli F-4 Phantom II, making him the first Egyptian pilot to shoot down an F-4 in combat

April 8, 1970: Israeli F4 Phantom II fighter jets attack a single-floor school in the Egyptian town of Bahr el-Baqar . The school is hit by five bombs and two air-to-ground missiles, killing 46 schoolchildren and injuring over 50

That wasn't nor would be the last time that IAF attack a civilian target killing mostly children

June 30, 1970: Soviet air defenses shoot down two Israeli F-4 Phantoms.

Early August, 1970: Despite their losses, the Soviets and Egyptians manage to press the air defenses closer to the canal, shooting down a number of Israeli aircraft. The SAM batteries allow the Egyptians to move in artillery which in turn threatens the Bar Lev Line.

August 7, 1970: A cease-fire agreement is reached
September 28, 1970: President Nasser dies of a heart attack, and is succeeded by Vice President Anwar Sadat.

Then there was less than 3 years to continue building the Egyptian armed forces and to wage 1973 war.
A war would led eventually to an agreement and peace.
Something Most Arab and Muslims refused to do back then (a peace agreement and accepting the existence of Israel + giving back the occupied lands incl. "Jerusalem" )

Egypt paid big price to that decision with Muslim and Arab countries cut off their relations with Egypt.
President Anwar Sadat was assassinated by radicals as a result of that agreement.
All those years back Muslims and Arabs still regret not taking what they could have taken back in the 70s-80s

.......
I have seen most Usraelis comments on this thread, either they are not educated enough about these matters or they are lying about facts..

Americans and Zionists have the big media outlets in the world.
They make fool believe that Jewish fought a freedom war , a sort of liberation in 1948 (Independence year) as they say! .. like they had lived in Palestine for 1000+ of years before they fought Arab .. Like there hasn't been (till modern days) any kind of immigration by millions to occupy Arab lands sponsored by western powers in a time when Arab where at their weakest conditions .

Plus the anti-Arab sentiments by many, among those .. funny to say "Muslims"!!
If it wasn't the month of "Ramadan" I would give them a hard lessons re. being underneath of Zionists influence!
They can't even defend themselves against American-led western interventions in their lands .. Even if they've killed 1000s of their people by drones! Yet they mocking the few Arab victories against Western-Israeli aggression!

________________________________

 

[The SC]

First of all, I did not "BOOST" anything, in fact, you boosted yours before by saying that my view are generally for uneducated or those who bought their lies.

I did not wrote to please anybody, nor have an nationalistic argument, I study war, I planned actual operation, i am neither Jewish nor Muslim, I study war for war, you and I were at different level.

And lol, you try to talk sense between WW2 and Iraq and Afghanistan? You seems to forgot I was actually in both Iraq and Afghanistan and where you are sitting in front of a TV. Do you even know how war is like over there or at anywhere at all? And about WW2, try ask yourself this question could Allied won WW2 without the US??

And trying to claim what I wrote was already written in specialised book or scholarly article is simply pathetic. I don't read much of anything else, you can run my article on any plagiarism detection software and if it come up with a hit, I will physically send you $100 bucks.

Plus what I am talked about is to discuss the issue on the article I raise, I did a lot of talks and discussion with both serving and former military officers as well as with PDF member here such as @AUSTERLITZ @Levina or @Slav Defence . I am asking you to DISCUSS that with me, not writing anything, if you claim I copy idea from someone, then I should not be able to come up with my own idea and discuss the issue at hand. So what are you waiting for, let's get on some discussion rather then talking trash here.

lol, are you afraid to talk about real military issue? Mr Military Engineer?

I am willing and able to discuss any military topic with you.. it is just that your type and thoughts do not fit my diplomacy..; we have said almost the same things about the 73 conflict and I have added some (very few details) and you found a way of talking about fanatism, just because I have quoted Sharon and Golda Mayer, and said some truth you were unaware of..!?

Maybe we will meet in another thread..till then take it easy..

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Well; Arab commanders were just straight up horrible - they had little understanding of Modern Warfare and has no system of carrying and giving out complex orders. The Arab armies were also very disorganized and did not really believe in the cause they were fighting for.

Israel on the other hand had many officers that served in WW1/WW2 and the backbone of their military/officer corps were professionally trained by the British - their soldiers were also very dedicated.