What will a secular pakistan look like?

[FaujHistorian]

i agree with you , but secularism does not gauruntee economic success in the end.

inclusivism (where everyone is protected and encouraged) is the pre-condition to economic success.

PRE-CONDITION only.

Hope you understand that we as nation must go beyond the precondition attract top CEOs and work hard. Then only then there will be economic success.

 

[Jungibaaz]

It would disintegrate.

If tomorrow Pakistan became secular, there'd be civil war. But this kind of change is gradual, as the nation develops, we will naturally become more secular, whether we like it or not, that's one of the effects of a globalized world.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

But the reasons that you cited have nothing to do with secularism. India's social fabric is the result of secularism, but it's economic development is the result of it's experiment with socialism.

Shittiest, poorest country you say. I request you to explain how exactly has secularism made anyone shitty and poor in India? What was it's role in this aspect?

It didn't made them any poorer, but some Pakistanis think secularism is the only reason Pakistan is still poor. I doubt Pakistan being secular would have prevented Soviets to invade Afghanistan. Or stopped Pakistan from arming Jihadis to fight against Soviets.

 

[qamar1990]

In the long term if Pakistan is not secular then its not worth it IMO. Madrassas need to be regulated or banned altoghther. Look at JI, they didnt support Pakistan in 47 and today is the only party who is not supporting operation against terrorists.

These pan islamic mullahs will ensure Pakistan will no longer exist in current form anyway.

what is the first step that we should take? to going down this new path?

 

[Kompromat]

very good point,
"is islam really keeping pakistan together?"
shall we open a thread about it?

Did you grow up in Pakistan?

Yes , Pakistan would definitely disintegrate , if our pseudo-educated youth (home and abroad) continues supporting Islamists(directly or indirectly) ....... Our only chance is separation of church from the state and putting Mullahs back to their original Ouqat (or sending them back to Arabia)

You and i both know what the 'workable space' of us young Pakistanis is. Evolution NOT Revolution!

 

[qamar1990]

Did you grow up in Pakistan?

i was in pakistan till i was 7, after that just visited for a couple of months at a time.

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

i got another thread after this one, "is islam keeping pakistan together" …
what you think? i don't want to bring it in this thread.

My suggestion for you is to start a thread about paksitan's handling of Afghanistan. Because your threads are success since you are a famous member here. I wanted to start it myself but I think I can pass on that idea to you.

So here is the point

Pakistan should not support only one "ethnicity" in afghanistan (which at the moment is pashtun in my view)
Why?
Because afghanistan is 60 % non-pasthun ethnicities and the most important ethnicity in the north is Tajik which paksitani establishment has made its enemy due to unnecessary support to afghan pashtuns, tajiks see it an ethnical issue.

Tajiks in afghansitan are much more saner, liberal and secular people (your current favorite ideology) than afghan pashtuns.

Afghan pashtuns hate pakistan and particularly punjabis more without any reason than tajik who have a reason that I mentioned before.

In other words we should not have any "favorite" race or ethnicity when dealing with afghanistan and should talk with everyone there irrespective of ethnicity who are like minded to us and they are in every ethnicity of afghanistan.

I think this could prove to be a good topic for a thread with maximum participation. What do you think about it ?

 

[Kompromat]

i was in pakistan till i was 7, after that just visited for a couple of months at a time.

Then you don't understand the social contract the Pakistani state has with its Pentalingual citizenry. Pakistan in effect operates as a secular state already as it has a market economy and a constitutional democracy. What Pakistan needs is not western secularism but to invent a solution, specifically tailored for our specific needs.

 

[Contrarian]

Impossible.

The moral values of our society are based on religion and that is why it will be impossible to separate state from religion.

I am sorry to say but this is the biggest canard in Pakistan.

YOUR moral values are not dependent on the State enforcing the Sharia/your religious values.
An example:
- There are hundreds of millions of Hindus who are vegetarian despite the Law not forcing everyone in India being vegetarian.
Do you get the idea?
- There are hundreds of millions of Indians/Hindus/Muslims who are teetotalers without banning alcohol in the State.

You can retain your moral values, you do not need to do anything that you feel is prohibited in your religion without forcing this on everyone by making enforcing it on the State.

Consequently, making Pakistan secular DOES NOT remove the moral values of your religion.

 

[Kompromat]

If tomorrow Pakistan became secular, there'd be civil war. But this kind of change is gradual, as the nation develops, we will naturally become more secular, whether we like it or not, that's one of the effects of a globalized world.

Secularism does not guarantee anything. Nor nations who blindly borrow alien ideologies ever thrive. Pakistan needs a Pakistani solution and it must - must relate to our past narrative and evolve it into an egalitarian future narrative for our citizenry.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Then you don't understand the social contract the Pakistani state has with its Pentalingual citizenry. Pakistan in effect operates as a secular state already as it has a market economy and a constitutional democracy. What Pakistan needs is not western secularism but to invent a solution, specifically tailored for our specific needs.

Very well said, that's exactly what we need, any alien system adopted can't be a perfect fit. Pakistanis have put this off for far too long, they need to start asking themselves who they are and what works for them. Until then Pakistan current course of huge political instability is guaranteed.

 

[Contrarian]

It would disintegrate.

Another misconception.
You have not developed an alternate identity of nationalism. You can...and very easily - and it would be more long lasting and stronger than the one based on Islam.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Secularism does not guarantee anything. Nor nations who blindly borrow alien ideologies ever thrive. Pakistan needs a Pakistani solution and it must - must relate to our past narrative and evolve it into an egalitarian future narrative for our citizenry.

I agree, I'm not asking Pakistan adopt Western secularism, it may or may not work. Pakistan must find it's own way, but some of the things we attribute to Western secularism are pretty much there already and with more to follow as we develop.

 

[ShahidT]

It would disintegrate.

only if it is shoved down the majority's throat abruptly. over time depending on how conditioning of the people takes place, they can come to accept just about anything, but you are then left with the moral dilemma of abandoning the vision of our fathers and rubbing hard spent blood and sweat into the piles of dung because you couldn't be arsed to implement what our deen asks of us.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

i heard that the balochs had a choice to stay with pakistan or become independent but they chose to stay with pakistan because it would be a united muslim country, do you think that by becoming secular would pakistan have more people asking for independence? like the pathans for pushtunistan ect.

Doubt it, especially after integration of FATA with rest of Pakistan in coming decades. Secular Pakistan is not happening for many decades.