Truth About Indian-Occupied Kashmir: What do the Kashmiris Want?

[blood]

What freedom do the Kashmiris don't have in India, that they would get either by being free or with Pakistan? That is what i have been trying to know.

instead they enjoy more freedom than any other indian, JAMMU AND KASHMIR as a state is an atonomous state were people of other state's of india can't purchase land, and the state were i live , karnataka, in every proffesional college there is a 2% reservation for the immigrant's of jammu and kashmir apart from this they also receive many eonomic packages from center.The seperatist leader's in kashmir openly hold anti- indian agitation's and the stone pellter's arrested by police are freed within a week. Now tell me is this not freedom???

 

[crankthatskunk]

What freedom do the Kashmiris don't have in India, that they would get either by being free or with Pakistan? That is what i have been trying to know.

Rezavan, they want freedom from India. A complete break, it is not matter of economic or anything else, they want to live their lives they way they want. They have UN mandate to decide their own fate. I personally am in favour to let them decide, if they want independent state or join Pakistan, either way, it is fine by me. One thing is certain; they don't want to be with India from the outset. They feel they have been conned and betrayed. The choice was taken from them by deception on the basis of a forged letter by Raja of Kashmir at the time of independence. That letter is never produced to the world. Therefore, the Indian hold on Kashmir is illegal and against the wishes of Kashmiri people. Kashmir had never been part of India. It is illegal occupation, under International Laws.

Indians can not hold on to it with force, one day they have to let it go, and according to my analysis this day is coming nearer.
Problem for India at the time of independence they have stolen so much land that once the Kashmir is free, India would crumble and go back to small states; it always had been. India as a country never existed; it is a gift of the British to extremists Hindus at the time of parting. They created this artificial country as a colony. But that does not mean it was one country. All seven North Eastern occupied states don't want anything to do with India. Then there is insurgency by the Communists, who wants nothing to do with India either.

That’s why I say, Indian number is next, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. Indian knows, once Kashmir is gone; their country will hit the downhill spiral and disintegrate. Force can never keep people slave, sooner or later they will get themselves free.

India also has the problem of over 150 million Muslims who are treated as third rated citizens by the "Hindu Zealots". But Muslims are not the only minority which is persecuted and killed by Hindu Zealots, Christians and low caste suffer the same fate.

Indians try to falsely boost India is a secular country, but in reality it is one of the most religiously intolerant country in the world. I am going to post some proofs in response to the post of some Indians, you should see the reality of their claims of “democratic and secular” country.

 

[lem34]

UR bias is clearly towards a straight solution between India and Pakistan and ur views tho very true does not resonate with most Pakistanis ,
Realism for some reason has lost its hold in popular Pakistani psyche.
Nevertheless the fact very Aptly put, leads to only one solution , Making LOC a Fixed border.

Who are you and on what authority are you telling Pakis what the popular psyche is. Your telling us what you think and what we think. Just think what a ridiculous statement.

 

[DGMO]

Who are you and on what authority are you telling Pakis what the popular psyche is. Your telling us what you think and what we think. Just think what a ridiculous statement.

But does he not have a point? Pakistani's up until recently have clung on to the mantra of 'Kashmir banega Pakistan'. Something that was a misnomer fed to the public who bought it hook, line and sinker.

The most obvious thing that I've noticed over the last 10 years is that such a view is slipping, and no longer at the forefront of everyday Pakistani's. We have bigger issues to deal with. That does not mean we're abandoning the Kashmiri's, but there has to be an acceptance that our rigid stance is (or was) a pipedream.

We certainly need to be realistic, and what I've highlighted in my post is the only conceiveable route to go down in terms of a solution.

 

[nForce]

It has been demonstrated with the Arab uprising that this statement has some merit.

But whatever anger there is, it is concentrated within the Valley. So this doesn't apply to Kashmir in the broadest sense - just a small area within that area.

Drill down further and you have differing demands (independence, secession with Pakistan, etc.) within the Valley itself.

Then you need to define the word free, or 'Azaadi', something that was never clearly translated even during the height of the protests and unrest last summer.

Push further and Kashmir will never achieve statehood for the reasons mentioned above, and the geographical area in question. And if statehood was to be taken to the UN, India's clout will ensure it gets quashed without delay. Secession to Pakistan is a no-goer as India will never allow it, and I'm not seeing Kashmiris screaming for that on a daily basis.

Two options remain:

1) The status quo - an unresolved dispute with no real change going forward lingers on

2) Acceptance of the only logical solution - LoC as the border, greater movement over both sides, with a focus on trade and people-to-people contact​

The second option is the only realistic one. If Kayani and the military softens its stance, MMS doesn't dither or drag his heels like he did in 2007, then we can achieve that and open a new chapter in relations between both countries.

The second option is the only logical and viable option.Frankly,no political ruling political party in India will handover Kashmir to Pakistan on a plate as that would mean the greatest political suicide the World has ever seen.

Conversion of LOC to IB will save both the countries a lot of trouble provided that the IB is respected by both the countries.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Ok, first instalment on the truth of Indian “Democracy and Secularism”.
Violence against the Christians by the Hindu Zealots.

The recent physical attacks on members of the Christian minority and the burning down of scores of churches in the state of Gujarat and other parts of India reflect the gospel of hatred on which the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and its religious coalition partners are based. The otherwise staid and respected English language daily Times of India observed that after having targeted the Muslims and the Sikhs for a long time, Hindus have now turned toward the small, unprotected minority of Indian Christians.
BJP’s extensions, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Rashtriya Sewak Sangh (RSS) and Bajrang Dal, have openly incited their rank-and-file to demolish all vestiges of Christianity from India. The atmosphere of fear and hatred against Muslims whipped up at the time of the destruction of the Babri mosque in 1992, and against Sikhs in Delhi following the assassination of Indira Gandhi in 1984, now is focused on Indian Christians.
The establishment throughout India of Hindutva”“land of the Hindus alone”“is the objective of all of the right-wing Hindu religious parties that exist under the BJP umbrella. It is their declared policy to use all means, including violence, to reach that end.
Support for secularism comes only from a modest, educated, urban fringe. Recent events have shown that such voices of sanity are muted and drowned in a rising wave of Hindu fundamentalism that is sweeping India today.
Hindu Extremists Now Focusing Violence Against India

Many incidents of violence against both Catholics and Protestants went unreported, since the police often refused to record the victims' complaints, but by last June the number of violent attacks recorded by Christian organizations had reached over 200. This number was expected to double by year's end. Catholics, who make up about 29 percent of Christians in India according to Operation World, were often targeted in these attacks.

"This year Hindu extremists have beaten our priests, assaulted our nuns, broken crosses and urinated on sacred vessels," said Dr. John Dayal, president of the All India Catholic Union. "These acts of desecration show the true nature of the attackers."

Attacks were reported in Haryana, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Punjab, Uttar Pradesh and the states of tribal central India.

"We also have reports of attacks on Catholic clergy from West Bengal in the east to Andhra Pradesh in south central India," Dayal said.

Desecration of religious objects is common in such attacks. Police, however, often ignore the religious aspects of a complaint because of the legal implications.

"Indian law has specific provisions against actions that sow seeds of hatred between communities," Dayal explained. "We also have laws against violence directed at a specific religious or other minority group. Still other laws come into operation if the victims are Dalits."

Hindu Violence

More than 300 villages have been destroyed and more than 4,000 homes burnt in violent attacks which have been going on since August and show no sign of stopping.
The Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh has now sent hundreds of paramilitary troops to the area to try to stop the persecution which he's called the nation's shame.
Nearly 60 people have been killed, 18,000 injured and there are scores of reports about gang rapes, including of one nun.
Fourteen districts in the area have been affected and more than 200 hundred churches destroyed.

India Violence: Hindu Hardliners Attack Christians In State Of Orissa | World News | Sky News

This is the first Installment, more to come, like I said, India is an artificial country, given to "Hindu zealots" by the British colonialism.

 

[Emmie]

instead they enjoy more freedom than any other indian, JAMMU AND KASHMIR as a state is an atonomous state were people of other state's of india can't purchase land, and the state were i live , karnataka, in every proffesional college there is a 2% reservation for the immigrant's of jammu and kashmir apart from this they also receive many eonomic packages from center.The seperatist leader's in kashmir openly hold anti- indian agitation's and the stone pellter's arrested by police are freed within a week. Now tell me is this not freedom???

I dont think its freedom... You're either treating Kashmiris as superior and rest of the India as inferior or Kashmiris as inferior and rest of the India as superior..

 

[Vinod2070]

The second option is the only logical and viable option.Frankly,no political ruling political party in India will handover Kashmir to Pakistan on a plate as that would mean the greatest political suicide the World has ever seen.

Conversion of LOC to IB will save both the countries a lot of trouble provided that the IB is respected by both the countries.

This is what was agreed to between Musharraf and Manmohan Singh in the back channel talks.

Allows India to claim victory as there is no change in borders that India will not allow
Allows Pakistan to claim victory as it can claim that the borders are irrelevant
Gives relief and maximum autonomy to the Kashmiris

It was the best win win formula and its a shame Musharraf culdn't sell it to Pakistan before he had to leave.

 

[gaurish]

I dont think its freedom... You're either treating Kashmiris as superior and rest of the India as inferior or Kashmiris as inferior and rest of the India as superior..

Let we treat Indians as we do .... Internal matters of India will be solved by India

 

[DGMO]

Indians try to falsely boost India is a secular country, but in reality it is one of the most religiously intolerant country in the world.

I think the Shia's, Ahmadi's, Christians of Pakistan, and Salman Taseer's family would like to challenge that statement and throw their hat into the ring.

Look, let's not move away from the point of the thread, but look how weak your argument stacks up when you say such things as a Pakistani. Are you oblivious to the crimes being committed against minorities? Yes India isn't perfect, but my God we're far from perfect.

Another relevant point to this is this: Who are the Kashmiri's? Sufi muslims in the main I'd say. So please go ahead an let them know that ziarats, and other Sufi places of worship are being blown up left right and centre by 'tolerant' Pakistani's in Pakistan.

I'm sure they'd be lining up to do all they can to secede to Pakistan. A little perspective and humility wouldn't go amiss in this debate.

 

[DGMO]

This is what was agreed to between Musharraf and Manmohan Singh in the back channel talks.

Allows India to claim victory as there is no change in borders that India will not allow
Allows Pakistan to claim victory as it can claim that the borders are irrelevant
Gives relief and maximum autonomy to the Kashmiris

It was the best win win formula and its a shame Musharraf culdn't sell it to Pakistan before he had to leave.

Absolutely, it was a win-win situation. Sadly the Chief Justice bakwaas kicked in and Musharraf was left weak and isolated.

But let's remember the wider point: Musharraf was able to push this through as a military man, with the Corps Commanders on board - including one certain Gen Kayani. So if the military can demonstrate they can agree on such a solution once, then I'm sure they can do it again.

That augurs well for any future settlement.

 

[Emmie]

Let we treat Indians as we do .... Internal matters of India will be solved by India

Good, so next time please dont poke your saddle nose into Pakistani issues, also admonish your country fellow of this.

 

[nForce]

Rezavan, they want freedom from India. A complete break, it is not matter of economic or anything else, they want to live their lives they way they want. They have UN mandate to decide their own fate. I personally am in favour to let them decide, if they want independent state or join Pakistan, either way, it is fine by me. One thing is certain; they don't want to be with India from the outset. They feel they have been conned and betrayed. The choice was taken from them by deception on the basis of a forged letter by Raja of Kashmir at the time of independence. That letter is never produced to the world. Therefore, the Indian hold on Kashmir is illegal and against the wishes of Kashmiri people. Kashmir had never been part of India. It is illegal occupation, under International Laws.

Indians can not hold on to it with force, one day they have to let it go, and according to my analysis this day is coming nearer.
Problem for India at the time of independence they have stolen so much land that once the Kashmir is free, India would crumble and go back to small states; it always had been. India as a country never existed; it is a gift of the British to extremists Hindus at the time of parting. They created this artificial country as a colony. But that does not mean it was one country. All seven North Eastern occupied states don't want anything to do with India. Then there is insurgency by the Communists, who wants nothing to do with India either.

That’s why I say, Indian number is next, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. Indian knows, once Kashmir is gone; their country will hit the downhill spiral and disintegrate. Force can never keep people slave, sooner or later they will get themselves free.

India also has the problem of over 150 million Muslims who are treated as third rated citizens by the "Hindu Zealots". But Muslims are not the only minority which is persecuted and killed by Hindu Zealots, Christians and low caste suffer the same fate.

Indians try to falsely boost India is a secular country, but in reality it is one of the most religiously intolerant country in the world. I am going to post some proofs in response to the post of some Indians, you should see the reality of their claims of “democratic and secular” country.

Below is a conversation on letter between Maharaja Hari Singh and Lord Mountbatten ,the last Viceroy of India :

Letter from Maharaja Hari Singh
to Lord Mountbatten
on the eve of Pak invasion on J&K in 1947​

My dear Lord Mountbatten,

I have to inform Your Excellency that a grave emergency has arisen in my State and request the immediate assistance of your Government. As Your Excellency is aware,the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not acceded to either the Dominion of India or Pakistan. Geographically my State is contiguous wit h both of them. Besides, my State has a common boundary with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and with China. In their external relations the Dominion of India and Pakistan cannot ignore this fact. I wanted to take time to decide to which Dominion I should accede or whether it is not in the best interests of both the Dominions and of my State to stand independent, of course with friendly and cordial relations with both. I accordingly approached the Dominions of India and Pakistan to enter into standstill agreement with my State. The Pakistan Government accepted this arrangement. The Dominion of India desired further discussion with representatives of my Government. I could not arrange this in view of the developments indicated below. ln fact the Pakistan Goernment under the standstill agreement is operating the post and telegraph system inside the State. Though we have got a standstill agreement with the Pakistan Government, lhe Govemment permitted a steady and increasing strangulation of supplies like food, salt and petrol to my State.

Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes wnh modern weapons have been allowed to infiltrate into the State, at first in the Poonch area, then from Sia1kot and finally in a mass in the area adjoining-Hazara district on the Ramkote side. The result has been that the limited number of troops at the disposal of the State had to be dispersed and thus had to face the enemy at several points simultaneously, so that it has become difficult to stop the wanton destruction of life ad property and the looting of the Mahura power house, which supplies electric current to the whole of Srinagar and which has been burnt. The number of women who have been kidnpped and raped makes my heart bleed. The wild forces thus let loose on the State are marching on with the aim of capturing Srinagar, the summer capital of my government, as a first step to overrunning the whole State.The mass infiltration of tribesman drawn from distant areas of the North-West Frontier Province, coming regularly in motortrucks, using the Manwehra-Mazaffarabad road and fully armed with up-to-date weapons, cannot possibly be done without the knowledge of the Provincial Govemment of the North-West Frontier Province and the Government of Pakistan. Inspite of repeated appeals made by my Government no attempt has been made to check these raiders or to stop them from coming into my State. In fact, both radio and the Press of Pakistan have reported these occurences. The Pakistan radio even put out the story that a provisional government has been set up in Kashmir. The people of my State, both Muslims and non-Muslims, generally have taken no part at all.

With the conditbns obtaining at present in my State and the great emergency of the situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from the Indian Dominion. Naturally they cannot send the help asked for by me without my State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so, and I attach the instrument of accession for acceptance by your Government. The other alternative is to leave my state and people to free booters. On this basis no civilised government can exist or be maintained.

This alternative I will never allow to happen so long as I am the ruler of the State and I have life to defend my country. I may also inform your Excellency's Government that it is my intention at once to set up an interim government and to ask Sheikh Abdullah to carry the responsibilities in this emergency with my Prime Minister.

If my State is to be saved, immediate assistance must be available at Srinagar. Mr. V.P. Menon is fully aware of the gravity of the situation and will explain it to you, if further explanation is needed.

In haste and with kindest regards,

Yours sincerely,

Hari Singh
October 26, 1947

Reply from Lord Mountbatten to Maharaja Hari Singh​

My dear Maharaja Sahib,

Your Highness' letter dated 26 October 1947 has been delivered to me by Mr. V.P. Menon. In the circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. In consistence with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people.

Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness' appeal for military aid, action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir, to help your own forces to defend your territory and to protect the lives, property, and honour of your people. My Government and I note with satisfaction that Your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister.

Mountbatten of Burma
October 27, 1947

Below is a picture of the Instrument of Accession to India,signed by Maharaja Hari Singh :

 

[DGMO]

no political ruling political party in India will handover Kashmir to Pakistan on a plate as that would mean the greatest political suicide the World has ever seen.

And nor would I expect any sovereign nation to do such a thing. Strategic interests come first, all else is secondary.

However as the point has been made, it allows both nations to save face. And with an expected withdrawal of substantial security personnel in the Valley as a result, the humiliation and suffering of the Kashmiri's to come to an end, as well as a restoration of their dignitiy.

 

[gaurish]

Good, so next time please dont poke your saddle nose into Pakistani issues, also admonish your country fellow of this.

It is clear who is poking nose In our Kashmir ...