What's new

‘Too upset and angry’: Muslim teen barred from top London school for wearing veil quits

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes but the private school is also running in a country where it is obliged to its laws just like when opening an Islamic school...be it a private one it has to follow certain set of rules...and btw, I have posted what the headmistress said about the rules of the school as not having a uniform but a dress code....
I would love to see Pakistan try and roll in the madrassas under its control. That would be funny to see.

I am surprised you living in America where if anything is not present in black or white ends up in court room cases....
Not sure what you are getting at or how that is relevant.
 
.
You mean to say that terrorists have the right to commit terror acts if they declare themselves terrorists? But a so-called liberal person must justify before going violent even in self-defence?

UK is secular and liberal because majority of Britishers have adopted it as "their way of life" which is under threat. In fact through such acts they are preserving the values on which their nation has been built.

Old saying: Practice what you Preach.
No idea how you concluded that...serious issues with English language might explain it but otherwise...no idea when he claimed about terrorist and whatnot....

But lets see...terrorist COMMITS TERROR to be claimed a terrorist....

While a liberal person has to ACT LIBERAL and not selective to be CONSIDERED LIBERAL....

And their way of life includes not to interfere nor subject others to THEIR thoughts....and by she covering her face is not interfering in THEIR lives nor subjecting OTHERS to HER thoughts...


I would love to see Pakistan try and roll in the madrassas under its control. That would be funny to see.
Well that was already covered...


I am talking about British laws of freedom of religion and thought and stuff....it is in their constitution...either remove it and declare themselves a Christian or whatever country and clearly state they have 0 tolerance like Maldives regarding freedom of religion for their citizens or dont go lie with a brand (freedom + tolerance) and sell something else (no freedom + no tolerance)!

Not sure what you are getting at or how that is relevant.
Well, just a little shocked how everything ends up in courts (from fast food making me fat to discrimanted based on IQ tests) in USA but if it happens in another country it is not worth a discussion... hmmm just something that surprises me every time...
 
.
You mean to say that terrorists have the right to commit terror acts if they declare themselves terrorists? But a so-called liberal person must justify before going violent even in self-defence?

UK is secular and liberal because majority of Britishers have adopted it as "their way of life" which is under threat. In fact through such acts they are preserving the values on which their nation has been built.

Old saying: Practice what you Preach.

Wait, what? Seriously?
You mean to say that terrorists have the right to commit terror acts if they declare themselves terrorists?
No, they don't. Comparing dress code to terrorism is absurd, but i'll go along and counter what you call an argument.

Terrorists are called terrorists because they do terrorism. If terrorists were to start distributing candy and being peaceful, they would no longer be terrorists.
In the same way, Liberal and Tolerant people are liberal and tolerant because they practice liberalism and tolerance. If they were to start discriminating, they would no longer be tolerant and liberal.

Terrorists are terrorists so no one is surprised when they do acts of terrorism because they are terrorists. But if a tolerant and civilized country does acts of terrorism, people will be surprised because said country claims to be against terrorists.

But a so-called liberal person must justify before going violent even in self-defence?
Yes, of course. 'Self-Defense' IS a justification to violence. The whole point of being peaceful and tolerant is that you don't go to war without justification!

UK is secular and liberal because majority of Britishers have adopted it as "their way of life" which is under threat. In fact through such acts they are preserving the values on which their nation has been built.
How is it under threat?
'Through such acts'? You mean that by stopping a girl from going to school with a veil they are preserving their tolerant way of life?

You make absolutely no sense in your arguments, all I see is brainless Muslim bashing and Islamophobia.
 
.
No idea how you concluded that...serious issues with English language might explain it but otherwise...no idea when he claimed about terrorist and whatnot....

But lets see...terrorist COMMITS TERROR to be claimed a terrorist....

While a liberal person has to ACT LIBERAL and not selective to be CONSIDERED LIBERAL....

And their way of life includes not to interfere nor subject others to THEIR thoughts....and by she covering her face is not interfering in THEIR lives nor subjecting OTHERS to HER thoughts...



Well that was already covered...
Let me bold it maybe that will help.

it is a private institution, it makes its own rules.
 
.
Let me bold it maybe that will help.

it is a private institution, it makes its own rules.
I already answered that....btw, the thread turned into a country vs thread when KSA was dragged in few pages back...and then societies and minorities were dragged in to make it more of a country problem rather than a private school...
 
.
No idea how you concluded that...serious issues with English language might explain it but otherwise...no idea when he claimed about terrorist and whatnot....

But lets see...terrorist COMMITS TERROR to be claimed a terrorist....

While a liberal person has to ACT LIBERAL and not selective to be CONSIDERED LIBERAL....

And their way of life includes not to interfere nor subject others to THEIR thoughts....and by she covering her face is not interfering in THEIR lives nor subjecting OTHERS to HER thoughts...



Well that was already covered...





Well, just a little shocked how everything ends up in courts (from fast food making me fat to discrimanted based on IQ tests) in USA but if it happens in another country it is not worth a discussion... hmmm just something that surprises me every time...

Issue is that you want "them" to remain liberal not because you like the idea, but because it suites you when you are in minority. "They" are not bound to live by your expectations, are they?

Britain is "liberal" not because of the British laws, Britain is not a Police State. Britain is liberal because of it's people and their way of life. Britain will remain liberal and tolerant as long as the minority remains a significant minority and is not allowed to have it's way, because on that day Britain will no longer remain "liberal" and "tolerant".

In short Britain is doing what you want it to do: Take some harsh decisions so that Britain remains "liberal".
 
.
The state should not have power over private schools. That is ludicrous.
.
So you mean to say that a private school should not obey state laws?
Like I said before, I am not denouncing the school's action. It's their school after all. However, since this school is located in a country that preaches tolerance, the school should adhere to the country's principles and laws. If they were to ban someone because they are Muslim (without the veil), it would be in violation of the UK's anti-discrimination laws.
However, in this case, the school had a somewhat legitimate reason against the veil.
Equality Act 2010: guidance - Detailed guidance - GOV.UK
Discrimination: your rights - GOV.UK

It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of:

  • age
  • being or becoming a transsexual person
  • being married or in a civil partnership
  • being pregnant or having a child
  • disability
  • race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
  • religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
  • sex
  • sexual orientation
These are called ‘protected characteristics’.

You’re protected from discrimination in these situations:

  • at work
  • in education
  • as a consumer
  • when using public services
  • when buying or renting property
  • as a member or guest of a private club or association
 
.
Why is my post in response to @A.M. awaiting moderator approval?
I posted this a while ago but it apparently didn't go through.
So you mean to say that a private school should not obey state laws?
Like I said before, I am not denouncing the school's action. It's their school after all. However, since this school is located in a country that preaches tolerance, the school should adhere to the country's principles and laws. If they were to ban someone because they are Muslim (without the veil), it would be in violation of the UK's anti-discrimination laws.
However, in this case, the school had a somewhat legitimate reason against the veil.
Equality Act 2010: guidance - Detailed guidance - GOV.UK
Discrimination: your rights - GOV.UK
 
.
Answers for some of you:


The niqab is no reason to deny a girl an education
A school in Camden has barred a pupil for wearing a veil. This is not how a liberal education should work

c0095fef96503a910dd195ac54cd1820.jpg


'The veil is a metaphor not just for the struggle between religious faith and feminism but for deep contemporary fears of division and distance.' Photograph: Don McPhee for the Guardian


Gotcha, as the Sun is surely thinking. Once again, Ed Miliband has been done up like a kipper by the tabloid of choice for the struggling low-earners he seeks to represent. And this time it’s not for going along with one of its patriotic publicity stunts – as when he posed with its World Cup front page – but for refusing. Asked on a crazily busy day to be photographed wearing a Help for Heroes charity wristband, he failed to do so, and was duly patriot-shamed.

Admittedly, it could have been better handled. (If you’re not going to play the Sun’s game, fine, but tell everyone why before it does – preferably while declaring undying gratitude to war veterans and making a private donation.) But it was a cheap trick, reeking of that aggressive with-us-or-against-us patriotism that roams the streets looking for anyone who doesn’t fall into step. Nobody should be bullied into wearing something to prove their allegiance to a country, whether it’s a bracelet or a red poppy or a saltire in face paint. And nor, arguably, should they be bullied out of wearing something.

This week, it emerged that a 16-year-old girl has been barred from an outstanding London state school because she insists on wearing the niqab, or full-face covering. Camden School for Girls is famous for turning out strong-minded young women but says it can’t teach this one due to an established policy of challenging “inappropriate dress which offends public decency or which does not allow teacher-student interactions”. Hundreds have already signed a petition protesting that what you wear “does not affect anyone else”. And just as the Sun row isn’t really about a bracelet, this isn’t purely about a scrap of fabric worn by at most a tiny minority of Muslim women. The veil is a metaphor not just for the struggle between religious faith and feminism but for deep contemporary fears of division and distance, of the shutters coming down between one culture and another.

It’s helplessly confusing for liberals, who can’t decide which is worse: a Muslim culture where it’s accepted that men will ogle women, and that women should hide themselves for shame, or a western one where girls choosing the veil in defiance of their families, as an expression of their own identity, get lectured by grumpy white men who think they should make more effort to fit in? More surprisingly, even Ukip is baffled by the burqa, veering between wanting to ban it and worrying that, as libertarians, they shouldn’t be banning anything.

Yet we expect headteachers to navigate this impossible terrain, under pressure as they are after the so-called Trojan horse scandal to reinforce something mysteriously known as “British values”. And like it or not, as any ageing former punk knows, clothing does sometimes express values. The unspoken fear must be that if schools surrender on veils, the next thing will be demands for girls to sit separately from boys, or to drop music and sport.

Not, it should be said, that this is the school’s argument. Its governors say merely that they need to see their students’ faces to verify identity – which sounds reasonable, although is perhaps as easily managed by getting students to agree to lift the veil if challenged for good reason – but also because, for educational reasons, teachers “need to see a student’s whole face in order to read the visual cues it provides”. And that’s where it gets tricky.

Humans can, of course, learn to get by without all the non-verbal cues on which most of us unthinkingly rely in social and professional encounters. It’s a tiny thing, but I’ll never forget watching David Blunkett enter a meeting and extend his hand for a handshake at precisely the moment his sighted host did so. Clearly, he was used to strangers forgetting that the blind can’t see an outstretched hand. But when his host twigged, blushed and silently lowered his hand the uncanny thing is that Blunkett was one step ahead of him. He caught the other man’s hand at exactly the right point on that mortified, invisible arc. But imagine the effort and the years of experience that takes. And now ask yourself how long it could take a teacher to learn to decipher, from the droop of a shoulder or half-audible sigh, whether a child is feeling bored or engaged, struggling or racing impatiently ahead, inside that mysterious tent.

It would seem wrong for schools not to warn girls that by barricading themselves behind yards of cloth they’re potentially holding themselves and their learning back, shutting down future opportunities in much the same way as a disruptive child who blanks the teacher; and that while what you wear certainly shouldn’t affect other people, sometimes in practice it just does. But it’s precisely this question of future opportunities that makes a ban on niqabs in all schools feel instinctively wrong.

It’s not hard to understand why Jack Straw, who first raised the veil issue, felt uncomfortable seeing shrouded constituents in his surgery: most of us instinctively interpret concealment as a hostile, alienating thing, as uncomfortable as talking to the back of someone’s head. But the rule of thumb must surely be that we all have the right to dress or speak in an alienating, even offensive way so long as we do no harm.

If you’re a doctor who puts patients at risk of cross-infection by moving from bed to bed while wearing the same bit of dangling cloth, then whether that’s a veil or an old-fashioned consultant’s tie you can legitimately be asked to choose between clothing and career. If you’re bearing witness in court, justice for the defendant is best served by letting jurors evaluate your expressions. The state can expect women to reveal themselves where concealment exposes others to risk.

But constituents shouldn’t have to dress to make their MP feel comfortable in order to get help in a crisis. Women reluctant to undress for a male doctor should be able to see a female one. And if a girl wants to learn in a profoundly empowering school that prides itself on fostering independent thought, then it feels wrong to push her away, possibly into an establishment without half as many principles. It’s a properly liberal education that sets girls free, or they wouldn’t risk death in countries from Pakistan to Nigeria to get one. We should do nothing to exclude from it those who may one day need it most.
The niqab is no reason to deny a girl an education | Gaby Hinsliff | Comment is free | The Guardian
 
.
‘Too upset and angry’: Muslim teen barred from top London school for wearing veil quits — RT UK

View attachment 85554
Reuters / Khaled Abdullah

Anonymous, Education, Religion, Security,UK
A Muslim teenager who had been banned from school for wearing an Islamic face veil said that she was too ‘upset, hurt and angry’ to go back, despite the support of cover a thousand of her fellow students.

The 16 year old, who was due to start her A level exams this year, was told by the prestigious Camden School for Girls that her decision to wear the Islamic veil went against the schools’ dress code, and that staff would not be allowed to teach her unless she removed it.

Speaking to the London Evening Standard, the girl said that the face veil should not be seen as “un-British”.

“I was born in Britain. I know perfect English, I enjoy doing the normal, typical things like drinking tea and eating biscuits. Britain claims to be multicultural, meaning they accept different kinds of people.”

“To be honest a lot of people at the school wear inappropriate clothing — inappropriate as in very provocative and revealing clothing like extremely short shorts — so it didn’t make sense that they were refusing me to wear the niqab” she said.

The girl will continue her studies at a different sixth form college, which is located further away from her home.

“I’ve been going to Camden for five years yet they were so dismissive but a school that I’d never even heard of were so ready to welcome me. There are even other students who wear the niqab” she said.

Camden School for Girls was named as one of the top 100 in the country by schools minister David Laws last year, and has a number of prominent alumni.
Good decision. There is no such thing as enclosing oneself in an envelope in Islam. Covering face has nothing to do with Islam. Islam asks its followers to chose the middle of the road path, and covering face is definitely not it. This practice existed in many medieval cultures prior to Islam, and some of them have maintained their cultural practices. Muslim scholars need to educate Muslims to avoid associating certain cultural practices with Islam and avoid taking things to extreme. It does them no favor but only isolate them from the rest of the humans and make them suspecious. Head scarves fine, covering face has no place in todays modern world, period.
 
.
Good decision. There is no such thing as enclosing oneself in an envelope in Islam. Covering face has nothing to do with Islam. Islam asks its followers to chose the middle of the road path, and covering face is definitely not it. This practice existed in many medieval cultures prior to Islam, and some of them have maintained their cultural practices. Muslim scholars need to educate Muslims to avoid associating certain cultural practices with Islam and avoid taking things to extreme. It does them no favor but only isolate them from the rest of the humans and make them suspecious. Head scarves fine, covering face has no place in todays modern world, period.

I agree and you are right about Islam, though I don't think a veil is barbaric or anything, its pretty obvious that foreigners don't like it. And their dislike is somewhat justified (security reasons, not being able to recognize expressions etc)
Headscarves shouldn't be a problem.
 
.
I agree and you are right about Islam, though I don't think a veil is barbaric or anything, its pretty obvious that foreigners don't like it. And their dislike is somewhat justified (security reasons, not being able to recognize expressions etc)
Headscarves shouldn't be a problem.
I never said veil is barbaric but I said it has no place in a modern world. It is not only foreigners but also educated/understanding Muslims who find covering face as distasteful. I for one not like to get into conversation with somebody hiding her face. Not because I am interested in her face but purely because i find it very uncomfortable.
 
.
I never said veil is barbaric but I said it has no place in a modern world. It is not only foreigners but also educated/understanding Muslims who find covering face as distasteful. I for one not like to get into conversation with somebody hiding her face. Not because I am interested in her face but purely because i find it very uncomfortable.
Yes, like I said, its understandable, though I don't feel uncomfortable conversing with someone wearing a veil, I understand what you mean.
 
.
I support this decision. The school has every right to draw it's own boundaries regarding students' dress-code, that is the right of every school anywhere. E.g. We have Islamic schools in the UK too where open hair for girls is banned - so this is fair enough.

FYI schools in the UK actually take a very dim view of mini-skirts, suspenders, etc. Most girls are sent home for immodest clothing - almost none are penalised for niqab/hijab, which is why it makes the news.

Most Muslim scholars agree that the niqab is not essential anyway.
 
.
Also a caution of being overly assertive in wanting to stick your religion, it makes the local population more susceptible to campaigns of the European right who says letting in Muslims will compromise European values. Ditto for the American right.
There are rights guaranteed to migrants. But there are also duties. And yes, at times it will compromise your values if you are an orthodox person. You migrated to that country.

The UK and Canada have both called themselves Multicultural. They are not just one fixed culture of have a fixed set of values.
  1. Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity.

Immigrants have no obligation to assimilate as they are told that all cultures all welcomed and diversity is encouraged.

Your fears and beliefs echo the same ones held by traditionalists and Protestants held for Eastern-Europeans, Jewish and Catholic immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century!

most schools in UK are accommodative of religious diversity(unlike france where you cant have any such religious symbol) however considering the UK society, full face veil is a bit too extreme.
Similarly a naturist girl might want to come to school naked but I doubt the school will accommodate the request, because thats another extreme.

Which I never disagreed with. If it goes against school policy, don't do it.
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom