Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[lem34]

I think you didn't read my posts in this thread. Look before what I posted



Go back to your taliban hideout. You'd fit in with your buddies there.

Then again, someone living in a secular supposedly "infidel" canada advising other muslims! How ironic!

Mate I for one welcome your contributions on here. I wish there were more who had the education to appreciate them

 

[laiqs@mi]

And hold fast, all of you together, to Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qura'n), and be not divided among yourself" (3:105)

Your pakistan was established on muslim brotherhood principal... you guys failed because of your leaders who used islam often, but never followed islam... Now don't blame Ummah! Its all your fault!!

very good post.
the fault lies in followers (us) its not Ummah or Islam which is at fault.
it is same like a person buys a good brand but cannot use it properly does not mean that brand is faulty but the user is not using the thing right. here our leaders are at fault we whole muslim community are at fault because we are not following Islam according the teaching of Quran and Sunnah hence we are disgrace to Islam. and bring bad name to our religion.

 

[The SC]

Islam is not a religion; it encompasses and over-writes all borders/cultures/traditions/norms (i.e political/social ideologies).

Sects are only present in a religion, which Islam is not.

There is not context, Quran explains itself.

But it is still a higher form of religion.
In Koran it is said: "lakom dinokom wa liya din..." meaning you have your religion(s) and I have mine(Islam) and the examples are numerous.
So what you say about Islam is basically true but it is A religion, probably a higher form of religion than others.

We have had this "Ummah" discussion so many times here, but nevertheless I am going to give my views on it once again lol.

It's true that all Muslims are brothers & sisters to one another, & that they constitute one spiritual nation through religion. However this does not imply that we give up our race, culture, language, heritage, or nationalities simply for the sake of unity or living in a caliphate. God himself honors our diversity & wishes to preserve it, if He wasn't fond of it then why would He make humans so diverse & different? Islamic brotherhood aims to give people of a diverse background some sort of connection with each other so that they may not only help each other out, but also learn to appreciate & respect each other. Again, this does not imply destroying your race, culture, or language. Anyone who asks us to destroy our race, culture, language, or heritage is the embodiment of pure evil & must be utterly humiliated & destroyed.

Muslim nations are free to go on their own paths & help out other Muslim nations if they ever require it. That does not mean that you put someone else's interest above your own. If 2 Muslim nations have conflicting interests then they must do whatever is best for them & if that requires severing ties with another Muslim nation then so be it. A nation must never put someone else's interest before them. That being said however, Muslim nations should avoid conflicts or work to resolve pointless conflicts.
The problem with Pakistan is that the concept of Muslim "Ummah" over there involves giving up & destroying your heritage completely. Many in Pakistan don't know about or even celebrate their own history. In stead they take pride in the accomplishments of other Muslims who have nothing in common with them besides Islam. This is laughable of course because none of those Muslims are related to Pakistanis in either the genetic, linguistic, or ethnic sense. Some Pakistanis are so obsessed with "unity" that they might even bend over & sell their own daughters simply because a Muslim "brother" asked them to do so.

Nations require both racial & religious nationalism to survive, Arab nationalism is the best example of that. It aims to preserve race, language, & culture while simultaneously promoting Islam as well. Pakistan needs a mixture of both racial & religious nationalism so that their first priority would be to serve their own country & improve themselves while preserving their cultures & traditions. Then at the same time they could help out their Muslim brothers & sisters in other nations against injustice or any feasible or rational assistance they may require. Only when nations give first priority to themselves do they ever progress, no nation has ever progressed looking up to or relying on someone else.

Pakistanis are right about the Muslim Ummah.
When you talk about A nation, you should be talking about the Muslim nation as a whole, Islam never thought its people what you are preaching out of ignorance.

 

[King Solomon]

Mate I for one welcome your contributions on here. I wish there were more who had the education to appreciate them

Thanks mate. I guess its because of the different people from different background meeting in one place (forum). Not everyone has the capacity to read between the lines or even understand everything. Stereotypes and dogmas seem to supersede reason too often.

 

[The SC]

Mate I for one welcome your contributions on here. I wish there were more who had the education to appreciate them

Have you chosen your avatar picture to show that you are educated, everyone can do that.
Although I do appreciate you posts throughout the forum, I do not understand your stance with an ignorant and trolling chap.

Thanks mate. I guess its because of the different people from different background meeting in one place (forum). Not everyone has the capacity to read between the lines or even understand everything. Stereotypes and dogmas seem to supersede reason too often.

So you come from infidel backward Rumania to preach about the infidel "advanced" Canada.

 

[miss]

WhAtever anyone says ummah is nonexistent and will never take root, not because of Islam but because of the people who follow islam. Nevers before in the world has religion won over nationhood or ethnicity for long period of time.
Bd broke away from pak but kashmir is still in India. Any new order that will suplant the current one will be preceded by violence.
As far pak , first ice your ahmadi brothers their due and then your balochistan brothers then we can think of ummah

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Pakistanis are right about the Muslim Ummah.
When you talk about A nation, you should be talking about the Muslim nation as a whole, Islam never thought its people what you are preaching out of ignorance.

Preaching out of ignorance? I am not preaching, this is a forum & everyone is free to post their views & nor am I ignorant. Keep the personal attacks to yourself & try to contribute positively instead of just insulting anyone with a different view point than your own. Of course the anonymity of the Internet allows people such as yourself to behave in a manner they wouldn't in real life.

I support the concept of a Muslim "Ummah", however I also support honoring our differences. Muslims should help each other, there is no doubt about that, but they should aim for the progress of their own nations first & foremost. The Pakistani version of "Ummah" will destroy our heritage & I can't let that happen to my country. They have neglected themselves while caring too much about others. Today, many other Muslim nations are progressing because they care about themselves first & foremost. Pakistan on the other hand is being fragmented & destroyed.

 

[lem34]

Have you chosen your avatar picture to show that you are educated, everyone can do that.
Although I do appreciate you posts throughout the forum, I do not understand your stance with an ignorant and trolling chap.



.

Come on mate S-19's hearts in the right place. He is usually on the side of the down trodden. Their are occasions when he goes of the rails but so do we all. I mean I have actually seen him unlike some to show here that he does debate and sometime he has changed his views. for example on the Turk Cypriot issue. So I welcome people disagreeing with me usually as long as it is respectful and rational. Either I convince them or they convince me or we agree to disagree. But important thing is we learn from each other. By the way the education dig was not meant at you and I agree and enjoy a lot of your posts

 

[laiqs@mi]

I support the concept of a Muslim "Ummah", however I also support honoring our differences. Muslims should help each other, there is no doubt about that, but they should aim for the progress of their own nations first & foremost. The Pakistani version of "Ummah" will destroy our heritage & I can't let that happen to my country. They have neglected themselves while caring too much about others. Today, many other Muslim nations are progressing because they care about themselves first & foremost. Pakistan on the hand is being fragmented & destroyed.

because other nations you are talking about are not a threat to jews or they cant help ummah. we on the other hand are a powerfull nation. (with corrupt leaders) and jews and Amreki's will not let us prosper. they will try their best to distroy pakistan in any case.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

because other nations you are talking about are not a threat to jews or they cant help ummah. we on the other hand are a powerfull nation. (with corrupt leaders) and jews and Amreki's will not let us prosper. they will try their best to distroy pakistan in any case.

Pakistan today is in no position to help anyone, & neither is it a threat to America, Israel, or India at the moment. A lot of what you are saying sounds like conspiracy theories to me. If Pakistan tries to progress, I assure you that no power on earth can prevent us from progressing. All of the problems we face today are the results of our own faults. There are many Muslim nations however that are progressing & building a better future for themselves while some Pakistanis either consistently blame others or cheer some other Muslim nation.

 

[King Solomon]

Have you chosen your avatar picture to show that you are educated, everyone can do that.
Although I do appreciate you posts throughout the forum, I do not understand your stance with an ignorant and trolling chap.

You seem to be very intolerant in your views. If you cannot tolerate other's views, why are you here on the forum? Why dn't you go hang out with your taliban buddies who would welcome you?

All I am saying is that your concept of pan-islamism is flawed. I advocate something like the EU and NATO where everyone preserves their own leadership, culture, traditions and individual norms yet becomes united in political/military front when it comes to dealing with outsiders. This, is the concept of "nationhood" advocated in the Koran, not your pan-Islamism crap where everybody from every country is forced to follow a backward Arab caliph. I already backed my stance with quranic evidences.

So you come from infidel backward Rumania to preach about the infidel "advanced" Canada.

I would assume your parents have not taught you civilized manners. What I said is not incorrect, is it? You are living in Canada, a secular supposedly "infidel" country. Yet, you are using harsh language and coercing others to concede to your views. How much of a hypocrisy is that?

And you assuming I live in romania shows how desperate you are to throw insults.

Come on mate S-19's hearts in the right place. He is usually on the side of the down trodden. Their are occasions when he goes of the rails but so do we all. I mean I have actually seen him unlike some to show here that he does debate and sometime he has changed his views. for example on the Turk Cypriot issue. So I welcome people disagreeing with me usually as long as it is respectful and rational. Either I convince them or they convince me or we agree to disagree. But important thing is we learn from each other. By the way the education dig was not meant at you and I agree and enjoy a lot of your posts

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

See, this is what I call intolerance and bigotry. These people cannot tolerate opposing viewpoints at all and take them as a personal attack:

why is samehindutwabozo still not banned??

that gujrati modi hindutwa

 

[lem34]

Pakistan today is in no position to help anyone, & neither is it a threat to America, Israel, or India at the moment. A lot of what you are saying sounds like conspiracy theories to me. If Pakistan tries to progress, I assure you that no power on earth can prevent us from progressing. All of the problems we face today are the results of our own faults. There are many Muslim nations however that are progressing & building a better future for themselves while some Pakistanis either consistently blame others or cheer some other Muslim nation.

You are simply wrong. Americans have interfered in our country time and time again. We are seen as a threat by the unholy alliance of India Israel and America. Before you say we have democracy let me remind you Americans put pressure on Mush to do a deal with PPP and to bring "democracy" to our people. I could go into detail but to simply put the fact that we are under threat from the three countries mentioned earlier as conspiracy theories are an insult to our fallen

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!

a very good point and no one can argue with that it is a fact muslim unity or arab unity did keep alot of nations down and sometimes destroyed the whole nation like iraq when the arabs sold them out after fighting for them for a long time

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

You are simply wrong. Americans have interfered in our country time and time again. We are seen as a threat by the unholy alliance of India Israel and America. Before you say we have democracy let me remind you Americans put pressure on Mush to do a deal with PPP and to bring "democracy" to our people. I could go into detail but to simply put the fact that we are under threat from the three countries mentioned earlier as conspiracy theories are an insult to our fallen

I am not wrong, other nations will always try to interfere in Pakistan to serve their own interests. However any damage caused by them to us is our fault alone. It is us who need to guard our country & help it progress & develop. You can't keep blaming others for hurting you when it's you yourself that allows them to hurt you. Another thing, I don't care about democracy & I never attempted to say that "we have democracy". In fact I am not fond of democracy as a system of governance. I believe all nations should have the choice to select their own system of governance rather than have democracy shoved down their throats by the American government.

I had no intention of insulting those who sacrificed their lives for our country either, calling certain accusations conspiracy theories isn't an insult to anyone. In fact the people that our to be blamed for our problems is the Pakistani government & people themselves. Even God himself says that He does not change the circumstances of a people unless they change themselves.

 

[laiqs@mi]

Pakistan today is in no position to help anyone, & neither is it a threat to America, Israel, or India at the moment. A lot of what you are saying sounds like conspiracy theories to me. If Pakistan tries to progress, I assure you that no power on earth can prevent us from progressing. All of the problems we face today are the results of our own faults. There are many Muslim nations however that are progressing & building a better future for themselves while some Pakistanis either consistently blame others or cheer some other Muslim nation.

we are helping and we will help muslims when ever they need.
help does not mean just fight. we on moral grounds support Palestine, Kashmeer, we supported bosnia.....
I also mantioned that we have corrupt leaders who are main culprits bringing us in this condition.
i totaly do not blame others for our problems if we had strong leaders ship scensare people no one could harm us.
but in some part Americn's interference in our political system and others is damaging us.