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The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

>>>Nope these are not the coffins we are talking about. I dont blame you for not noticing the difference cause they share the same names. The ones crashing are not the Mig-21bison but the Mig21M/MF versions. The bisons are not the so called coffins.

The F104 was called a widowmaker. F16 in Europe has its records in crashing. Just count how many peace losses Belgium and Holland has. Still, I used that negative remark of the Indian press and there are big numbers of this plane responsible for pilot losses in the IAF. I do not think we can blaim pilots for the bigger numbers. As far as I know upgraded mig21 bis is called mig21 Bison. Mig21 Bis was the ultimate mig21 after it gor a bigger radar and more fuel storage in the spine. Negative impact was less agility. But it had a better engine. Here ACIG:

[One of the latest entrants is the MiG-21 Bison (formerly known as the MiG-21-93/UPG), the ultimate upgrade to the ageing MiG-21bis in order to bring it up to modern standards. The upgrade mainly revolves around the Phazotron Kopyo-M radar and integrated BVR attack capability with R-77 BVRAAMs. Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro nav. system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWR's antennae on the tailfin and the single piece windshield.]

Hindunet
[India started procuring MiG-21s from the erstwhile Soviet Union's MiG-MAPO after the Chinese attack of 1962. Today, the IAF has over 300 MiG-21s (16 operational squadrons) - MiG-21 FLs (interceptors, inducted into the IAF between 1996 and 1970), which are nearing the end of their lives and whose squadrons are being number-plated, MiG-21Ms (ground attack planes, inducted during 1970-73) and the MiG-21 Bis variant (multi-role, inducted between 1977 and 1985). Although the MiG-21 has evolved since its early days and upgrades - such as the $626-million contract that India signed with Russia in March 1996 to upgrade 125 MiG-21 Bis fighters - are being pursued, they are fast ceasing to be state-of-the-art. The MiG-21 Bis upgrade programme (the plane will be called MiG-21 Bison after upgradation) is limping along, after suffering two crashes - one in September 2002 and the other in April 2003. So far eight aircraft have been upgraded, but optimists aver that it would take at least four years before HAL is able to upgrade 125 MiG-21 Bis fighters, which are expected to stay in squadron service until 2015.]

The youngest mig21 bison is 23 years old... The oldest could be 31 years old. I don not think that upgading this difficult to fly plane is making it lot safer. And please do provide data to show that it is not the Bis that crashed but the other. Mig21 plane is essentiel a small body around the Tumansky engine... There is not much to improve.

>>>No doubt the plane lacks in some quarters. But, what it lacks in mobility it compensates with firepower. As the USAF pilot mentioned, the Mig-21 gets to shoot the first shot. No matter what platform they are shot from, the R-73 and R-77 are no pushovers. The mig-21 bison is a 2nd generation platform with 4th generation avionics and firepower. It would be stupid to underestimate 4th gen weapon systems. The R-73 is more potent than the AIM-9X.

If the Mig21 Bison has good ECM hen I surely think that the Americans have that for their planes. I think in certain actions they might get a sting of the mig21 but in a normal war the Mig21 will not have a impact. They just avoid getting near airfields. And added firepower decreased range more and it had to give away agility. The fact is that a plane with almost no range and just 2 BVR has no real value besides point defence (airfields). In that respect the JF17 is in the same corner. You cannot do a lot with jus 2 BVR. So they have probably rails for double launching. In reality a2a is a lot more then point defence. About AIM9x. I do not think I can agree with that. AIM9x was the reply after testing German MIG29 in USA... So the AIM9x is the folow up of the less advanced AIM9 versions. Do you think that USA would bring AIM9X while they know it is less?

>>You are mixing up the 2. The bison has 4th gen avionics. Israeli radars and jammers, MFDs, HOTAS control, navigational aids like sextents, the Tarang RWR etc. along with BVR capability. Heck, not to mention it has autopilot too. The same cannot be said for the PG. The PGs equivalent would be the Mig-21 Ms and MFs and not the bison.

You might be suprised what is in PG. Since it is a lot more agile and has more fuel then M/MF and besides that is is produced 35 years later... PAF was desperate to get some planes but I doubt that is as bad as plane that are that old. Design is altered but also technology is newer.

>>I for one can support you at that. The plane is 22m in length. I dont know, maybe you were talking to kids. The MKI is not stealth. Even, the F-15 will look like a black spot on the radar. Why else do u think the MKI carries a radar as powerful as a ground station radar. It is not trying to hide. You can see it with your RWR at a distance of 200+km. The MKI and F-15 are not meant to hide. The MKI's mission priorities include anti-air, SEADs and mini AWACS functions. Getting close to and bringing down the MKI is easier said than done.

Getting close to P/PG is easier said then done. Just notice the rwr on newer planes. There is a lot of interaction between JF17 technology and PG. I hope you did read about the ECM suit of the JF17. It is very advanced compared to that what PAF has at the moment. If you are less visible then you have less enemies. If that counts for the Gnat and Bison then I will love to add tha for F16, Mirages 5/3, JF17 but somehow the planes of the other side are always supersized when it comes to comparisation. Getting MKI in the air will be noticed by AWACS far away. That already is a problem. The TVC makes the big MKI bit more agile in lower speeds but it still is a big heavy plane that is difficult to hide.

>>>The wars we have had until now have not changed equations anyway, not the pattons, centurions, migs, sabres, starfighters, hunters, gnats, frigates, carriers etc. Neither india nor pakistan have been able to claim any kind of decisive edge anyways. We continue to hold what we had since partition. So, why bring poor gnat into the picture. It was just one platform out of many that were employed and none have contributed to change.

I agree with that. Both have nukes now. In the past both faild to exploit their weapons and tactics to the max. I have seen and touched the Gnat in USA. Unbelievable. Lovely plane. When used more effective it would have a bigger impact then most van imagine. But same can be said of some weapons on the Pak side.

>>>All india and pak did in the west pak border is move some troops a few kilometres on either side of the border, fight as long as our economy allowed us to. Then retreat and start chest thumping using the media even to this day.

The war never lasted long and did not bring any changes. I think besides decimating Pakistan area (Bangladesh) there is hardly any thing to cheer about. What does suprise me is that 5 times bigger (atleast) cannot win easily. But then again, trillions time better USA cannot win Afghanistan either. Mankind is unfortunately nationalistic and forgets the losses. It is no difference in the stock trading. Everyone loves to talk about the top stock but at the moment no one is talking about their total losses.

Nice talking to ya.
 
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The F104 was called a widowmaker. F16 in Europe has its records in crashing. Just count how many peace losses Belgium and Holland has. Still, I used that negative remark of the Indian press and there are big numbers of this plane responsible for pilot losses in the IAF. I do not think we can blaim pilots for the bigger numbers. As far as I know upgraded mig21 bis is called mig21 Bison. Mig21 Bis was the ultimate mig21 after it gor a bigger radar and more fuel storage in the spine. Negative impact was less agility. But it had a better engine. Here ACIG:



[One of the latest entrants is the MiG-21 Bison (formerly known as the MiG-21-93/UPG), the ultimate upgrade to the ageing MiG-21bis in order to bring it up to modern standards. The upgrade mainly revolves around the Phazotron Kopyo-M radar and integrated BVR attack capability with R-77 BVRAAMs. Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro nav. system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWR's antennae on the tailfin and the single piece windshield.]

Hindunet
[India started procuring MiG-21s from the erstwhile Soviet Union's MiG-MAPO after the Chinese attack of 1962. Today, the IAF has over 300 MiG-21s (16 operational squadrons) - MiG-21 FLs (interceptors, inducted into the IAF between 1996 and 1970), which are nearing the end of their lives and whose squadrons are being number-plated, MiG-21Ms (ground attack planes, inducted during 1970-73) and the MiG-21 Bis variant (multi-role, inducted between 1977 and 1985). Although the MiG-21 has evolved since its early days and upgrades - such as the $626-million contract that India signed with Russia in March 1996 to upgrade 125 MiG-21 Bis fighters - are being pursued, they are fast ceasing to be state-of-the-art. The MiG-21 Bis upgrade programme (the plane will be called MiG-21 Bison after upgradation) is limping along, after suffering two crashes - one in September 2002 and the other in April 2003. So far eight aircraft have been upgraded, but optimists aver that it would take at least four years before HAL is able to upgrade 125 MiG-21 Bis fighters, which are expected to stay in squadron service until 2015.]

The youngest mig21 bison is 23 years old... The oldest could be 31 years old. I don not think that upgading this difficult to fly plane is making it lot safer. And please do provide data to show that it is not the Bis that crashed but the other. Mig21 plane is essentiel a small body around the Tumansky engine... There is not much to improve.


1963-2002
Defenceindia : Special Reports : MiG Crash Chronology

2006 listing
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

2007 listing
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

2001-2005 listings
I counted 31 Mig-21 crashes from the period 2001-2005, out of which there were 14 Mig21 bis crashes, 2 Mig-21 bison crashes and the rest were the older versions like M/MF/U etc.
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

Most crashes have been attributed to human error than the plane.

'MiG-21 is no flying coffin' - Sify.com
Words of our air chief marshal
Dubbing the MiG-21 aircraft as a 'flying coffin' is purely a media creation. About 55 percent of the India Air Force combat fleet consists of MiG-21 aircraft, so naturally it flies more.

There are 125+ bisons in the air now. Only 4 crashes have been recorded so far even though it is the most flown version of the mig21 right now. The tumanskys on the bisons have been doing well. It is the bis version along with other older versions that are facing problems.


'MiG -21' safest flying machines-Chandigarh-Cities-The Times of India
This year, two combat aircraft have crashed, but none of them is MiG-21 Bison, the upgraded version of old MiG-21. IAF officers told TOI , "The MiGs are more safer than ever before. Only four MiG-21 Bison aircraft have crashed since their induction in 2002. IAF plans to fly the Bisons - which it describes as an almost brand new fighter, with latest avionics, improved gearboxes and other advanced systems - till 2017."

The latest technology in aviation registers 0.5 accidents every 10,000 hours of flying and the old technology touches 1.75 crashes in similar number of flying hours.


4 crashes in 6 years for the bison is a splendid record.

If the Mig21 Bison has good ECM hen I surely think that the Americans have that for their planes. I think in certain actions they might get a sting of the mig21 but in a normal war the Mig21 will not have a impact.

125+ migs would mean 250+ BVRs. Can this be underestimated. The migs dont even have to merge. They can just fire their missiles and hide behind the mig-29s or MKIs.

They just avoid getting near airfields. And added firepower decreased range more and it had to give away agility. The fact is that a plane with almost no range and just 2 BVR has no real value besides point defence (airfields).


The mig-21 bison is capable of mid air-refuelling.

In that respect the JF17 is in the same corner. You cannot do a lot with jus 2 BVR.

The Mirages carry only 2 BVRs, does that count it out. The Matra missiles are not as good as the R-77s either.

So they have probably rails for double launching. In reality a2a is a lot more then point defence. About AIM9x. I do not think I can agree with that. AIM9x was the reply after testing German MIG29 in USA... So the AIM9x is the folow up of the less advanced AIM9 versions. Do you think that USA would bring AIM9X while they know it is less?

The missile seeker technology with the russians is supposed to be better. The R-73s have undergone massive changes too. The R-73 reacts faster and has a better off boresight. The new R-74 is completely digital and is supposed to be even better. The Mig-35 and the new Su-35s are going to have them first.

You might be suprised what is in PG. Since it is a lot more agile and has more fuel then M/MF and besides that is is produced 35 years later... PAF was desperate to get some planes but I doubt that is as bad as plane that are that old. Design is altered but also technology is newer.

F-7PG is a good plane no doubt. but what it lacks is a good jammer and longer range missiles. This is the exact opposite of the bison. The pilot in the video stresses on the jammer and new weapons in the bison to describe its lethality.

Getting close to P/PG is easier said then done.

Does the F-7PG carry a western jammer; israeli or american or perhaps a chinese jammer.

Just notice the rwr on newer planes. There is a lot of interaction between JF17 technology and PG. I hope you did read about the ECM suit of the JF17. It is very advanced compared to that what PAF has at the moment. If you are less visible then you have less enemies. If that counts for the Gnat and Bison then I will love to add tha for F16, Mirages 5/3, JF17

Of course, newer technologies are quickly assimilated into include older platforms too, budget willing. But, the chinese and russian jamming pods are not as impressive as an israeli or american equivalent.

but somehow the planes of the other side are always supersized when it comes to comparisation.

LCA is smaller than the JF-17.

Getting MKI in the air will be noticed by AWACS far away. That already is a problem. The TVC makes the big MKI bit more agile in lower speeds but it still is a big heavy plane that is difficult to hide.

At the same time the firepower of the MKI will be troublesome. Whats the big deal if the MKI was detected by a ship 300 km away. The MKI will fire the Brahmos and will just turn back.


I agree with that. Both have nukes now. In the past both faild to exploit their weapons and tactics to the max. I have seen and touched the Gnat in USA. Unbelievable. Lovely plane. When used more effective it would have a bigger impact then most van imagine. But same can be said of some weapons on the Pak side.

In the past PAF had better weapons, better aircraft and top class training, all courtesy of the US. The same cannot be said of the IAF.
Gnat is indeed a good plane, but at the same time it was outclassed too. The sidewinders have been a pain.

What does suprise me is that 5 times bigger (atleast) cannot win easily. But then again, trillions time better USA cannot win Afghanistan either.

Size of a country doesnot signify whos stronger. It is not some school brawl, where the big guy hits the most. Look at israel. A tiny country facing a multitude of BIG countries. But who won in the end.
US policies regarding afghan will be redrawn. Rest assured they wont be leaving early.

Both india and pak did not have an economy to fight a long, drawn out war. In india's case it might be different now. Even China's economic condition is very similar to how rich the US was during WW2. Actually, China is at the same point as where the US was when WW2 started.


Mankind is unfortunately nationalistic and forgets the losses. It is no difference in the stock trading. Everyone loves to talk about the top stock but at the moment no one is talking about their total losses.

No one likes criticism and bad news.

Nice talking to ya.
Same here.:)
 
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1963-2002
Defenceindia : Special Reports : MiG Crash Chronology

2006 listing
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

2007 listing
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

2001-2005 listings
I counted 31 Mig-21 crashes from the period 2001-2005, out of which there were 14 Mig21 bis crashes, 2 Mig-21 bison crashes and the rest were the older versions like M/MF/U etc.
Warbirds of India - [Air Crash Listings of the Indian Air Forces]

Most crashes have been attributed to human error than the plane.

^ oh really? i counted it with my eyes open and disconnected from bharatraksha and the numbers were diffrent.
in a decade over 25 Mig-21"bis" have crahsed let alone other Mig-21 types..
91cd51e2d236e68230907e054ffad5ca.jpg


in late 1990s and early 2000 when most of IAF mig-21 fleet were operational almost 20-30 migs crashed annually.
only and only technology can save IAF! Mig-21 bison is a whole new beast! their is nothing typical of mig-21 about the bision. it is specifically designed not to crash and stay in combat. the other types of mig-21 are just falling bricks and pain in the butT for IAF. hardly 50 present of Mig-21 fleet are operational at the moment. roughly 200 Mig-21 are operational at any given time.



'MiG-21 is no flying coffin' - Sify.com
Words of our air chief marshal
Dubbing the MiG-21 aircraft as a 'flying coffin' is purely a media creation. About 55 percent of the India Air Force combat fleet consists of MiG-21 aircraft, so naturally it flies more.

lol... like i said. Hardly 50% of Mig-21 fleet are operational at any given time. The mig-21 quantity in IAF does not necessarily mean they clock the most hours in IAF, actually your Mig-27s are clocking more flying hours then the 21s.

125+ migs would mean 250+ BVRs. Can this be underestimated. The migs dont even have to merge. They can just fire their missiles and hide behind the mig-29s or MKIs.

in current scenario IAF has huge huge advantage in BVR over PAF, however this will change in 2009.
btw i would never wanna hide behind a huge huge RCS for cover but rather use my small RCS advantage to escape the zone after i am done with my mission.

F-7PG is a good plane no doubt. but what it lacks is a good jammer and longer range missiles. This is the exact opposite of the bison. The pilot in the video stresses on the jammer and new weapons in the bison to describe its lethality.

F-7PG would perform much better with indian Mig-21 upgraded "bison" technology.


In the past PAF had better weapons, better aircraft and top class training, all courtesy of the US. The same cannot be said of the IAF.
Gnat is indeed a good plane, but at the same time it was outclassed too. The sidewinders have been a pain.

ahh excuse me.. IAF has been having exercises with US, UK, France 5 times more then PAF ever had!
the only diffrence. you beat them in staged dogfights while we beat them in real dog fights.
 
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^ oh really? i counted it with my eyes open and disconnected from bharatraksha and the numbers were diffrent.
in a decade over 25 Mig-21"bis" have crahsed let alone other Mig-21 types..

I dont deny it. My number of 14 Mig-21 Bis is only for the period between 2001-05 and not the entire decade.


in late 1990s and early 2000 when most of IAF mig-21 fleet were operational almost 20-30 migs crashed annually.

Did i deny it anywhere??? Can u point out if i said the opposite before.

only and only technology can save IAF! Mig-21 bison is a whole new beast! their is nothing typical of mig-21 about the bision. it is specifically designed not to crash and stay in combat.

Yes, but Munir pointed out that tech cannot save the plane entirely, while i contradicted his post. Looks like you just support my theory on the Mig-21 Bison. Only tech can save the migs.


the other types of mig-21 are just falling bricks and pain in the butT for IAF. hardly 50 present of Mig-21 fleet are operational at the moment. roughly 200 Mig-21 are operational at any given time.

The other types are not a topic of discussion. The US pilot specifically talks about the Bison and so are we. The 50% operational Migs include the Bisons.


lol... like i said. Hardly 50% of Mig-21 fleet are operational at any given time. The mig-21 quantity in IAF does not necessarily mean they clock the most hours in IAF, actually your Mig-27s are clocking more flying hours then the 21s.

The 27 is a strike platform. Its relation to mig-21 is only by the name of the maker. The Bisons still post significant number of flying hours.


in current scenario IAF has huge huge advantage in BVR over PAF, however this will change in 2009.

But, we will still hold the edge qualitatively.

btw i would never wanna hide behind a huge huge RCS for cover but rather use my small RCS advantage to escape the zone after i am done with my mission.

It is understood by what i meant. The bisons can fire their missiles and allow the Mig-29 and MKI to merge while they escape.


F-7PG would perform much better with indian Mig-21 upgraded "bison" technology.

The PGs are a newer platform with decent engines. They will perform better. But, they are not getting the same upgrades are they. So, until then the bisons will continue to be a significant asset to the IAF.


ahh excuse me.. IAF has been having exercises with US, UK, France 5 times more then PAF ever had!
the only diffrence. you beat them in staged dogfights while we beat them in real dog fights.

U never fought the US, UK and France. U fought the Israelis in the 60s. You fought on vintage aircraft with obsolete tactics. Anyways, PAF did not bring down Israeli F-15s and F-16s did they.
Today is the 21st century. We are using AWACS and network centric warfare. Our doctrine is not the same anymore.

You can still continue to thump your chest over some situation 40 years ago or try to learn new tactics in air warfare.
 
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And you lost against much lower numbers vintage aircraft so I doubt that Bison will contribute much in a new war besides able to destroy unarmed Atlantiques.

Do remind that Bis was much worser to fly (certainly agility) then the Mig21F which is indeed the bases for PG. And if you keep telling that 30+ years old planes with no range, no payload and just some Israeli parts will be king of the sky then you might wonder why IAF bought so many MKI's and the rest of the world moved away from the mig21MF... You do know that Israeli had their own upgrade (Lancer which I did sit in!) and even that is not a real success.
 
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U never fought the US, UK and France. U fought the Israelis in the 60s. You fought on vintage aircraft with obsolete tactics.
Today is the 21st century. We are using AWACS and network centric warfare. Our doctrine is not the same anymore.

You can still continue to thump your chest over some situation 40 years ago or try to learn new tactics in air warfare.


Calm down dude…IAF only started to do these exercises for last few years, whereas PAF has been doing these exercises with USAF since mid 70s...Also, atleast on 4 to 5 occasions, PAF carried out mock exercises with USN once they had their fleet deployed south of Karachi. Majority of PAF pilots have experience fighting against F-14 and F-18 in an environment that involved AWACS and all sort of network centric warfare...

Our Air Defence controllers have been flying even on EA-6 Prowler and controlling friendly jets from E2-C Hawkeye as well...Many of these controllers, while on deputations abroad, have gained enough experience on E-3 AWACS as well…..The last time PAF had any exercise with USAF was June, 2006 when they brought F-16s along with all the paraphernalia at Jacobabad…Please don’t also forget all the Anatolian Eagles that we participated and right now as I am writing these lines, our one of the squadron is still in Turkey….

PAFs pilots and controllers have enough experience to deal with any modern threat in any AWACS or non-AWACS or BVR or non-BVR environments or net centric scenarios....I hope this satisfies your query..:enjoy:

You also mentioned something about vintage and obsolete tactics …..I don’t know that how many actual air-campaigns you have participated in otherwise you would have never said so..First thing first: In air warfare no tactic is ever obsolete or vintage…While new tactics are evolved and developed, the old tactics always remain there and never loose their importance …The Fokker DV II of first World War had a nose mounted gun and so as the F-22 Raptor, and believe me when it comes to close quarters gun fighting, the fighting tactics for both the aircrafts are almost same…Funny, isn’t it ??? One might question that with Raptors AIM-9M/X or 120C why even bother with a gun? Well, you never know when you have to revert back to the basics and its again same old exciting Gun Vs Gun tactics…..

Similarly, the Basic Fighting Manoeuvres (BFM) that a fighter pilot of any modern airforce still learn today are the same ones that were used by Spitfire or P 51 Mustang…While we continue to add different elements in today’s air-campaign in terms of AWACS, EW, BVR, Thrust vectoring, IRSTS etc etc, but somehow the basic fighting techniques never seems to go away…:angel:

Lastly, the tactics are always relative, if PAF was using obsolete tactics, so were the opponents….Present PAF might lack in the hardware but they definitely don’t lag in the tactics…And the shortcomings in the hardware will soon be overcome with planned inductions in a year or two….I wonder what you will say then ?


....PAF did not bring down Israeli F-15s and F-16s did they.

Well, with their F-15s and F-16s, did they bring down any Mig-21 flown by a PAF pilot ??? They had the advantage of flying a much superior weapon system....What do you suggest, whom shall we give the credit to? Think about it…:coffee:
 
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And you lost against much lower numbers vintage aircraft so I doubt that Bison will contribute much in a new war besides able to destroy unarmed Atlantiques.

It is not the question of armed or unarmed. The Atlantique is a Recce plane. It is more important to bring down a spy plane than a fighter.

Do remind that Bis was much worser to fly (certainly agility) then the Mig21F which is indeed the bases for PG. And if you keep telling that 30+ years old planes with no range, no payload and just some Israeli parts will be king of the sky then you might wonder why IAF bought so many MKI's and the rest of the world moved away from the mig21MF... You do know that Israeli had their own upgrade (Lancer which I did sit in!) and even that is not a real success.

zzz where is the question of Mig-21 bison being the king of the sky. All I said is 2 BVRs is not to be underestimated. You yourself said that Mig-21 bison is at best a point defense aircraft. So, why does it need range. Anyways, it is capable of mid air re-fuelling.

If range, payload etc were really the issue then why did PAF waste money purchasing the PGs which has a similar range, payload etc compared to the bison. The PGs are non BVR capable and not equipped with ECM suites comparable to the Bison. They were inducted at the same time as the Bison was inducted. If the bisons are really so inferior, then what category do we put the PGs under.
 
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Calm down dude…IAF only started to do these exercises for last few years, whereas PAF has been doing these exercises with USAF since mid 70s...Also, atleast on 4 to 5 occasions, PAF carried out mock exercises with USN once they had their fleet deployed south of Karachi. Majority of PAF pilots have experience fighting against F-14 and F-18 in an environment that involved AWACS and all sort of network centric warfare...

Our Air Defence controllers have been flying even on EA-6 Prowler and controlling friendly jets from E2-C Hawkeye as well...Many of these controllers, while on deputations abroad, have gained enough experience on E-3 AWACS as well…..The last time PAF had any exercise with USAF was June, 2006 when they brought F-16s along with all the paraphernalia at Jacobabad…Please don’t also forget all the Anatolian Eagles that we participated and right now as I am writing these lines, our one of the squadron is still in Turkey….

Nice. I was only replying to 23 March's post saying PAF has experience against superior enemies in real combat. So, both india and pak have only experienced advanced enemies in phoney wars.

PAFs pilots and controllers have enough experience to deal with any modern threat in any AWACS or non-AWACS or BVR or non-BVR environments or net centric scenarios....I hope this satisfies your query..:enjoy:

Nice, so the PAF air crews are well versed with all of the above on american systems. Oh wait, PAF has no EA-6B, E-2C and E-3 platforms. So, PAF experiences are superficial at best. Exercises closely monitored by USAF and with restrictions on the entire spectrum of bands available on the AWACS.

You also mentioned something about vintage and obsolete tactics …..I don’t know that how many actual air-campaigns you have participated in otherwise you would have never said so..First thing first: In air warfare no tactic is ever obsolete or vintage…While new tactics are evolved and developed, the old tactics always remain there and never loose their importance …The Fokker DV II of first World War had a nose mounted gun and so as the F-22 Raptor, and believe me when it comes to close quarters gun fighting, the fighting tactics for both the aircrafts are almost same…Funny, isn’t it ??? One might question that with Raptors AIM-9M/X or 120C why even bother with a gun? Well, you never know when you have to revert back to the basics and its again same old exciting Gun Vs Gun tactics…..

Exactly, 23March pointed out that they have excellent experience in israel, during the 60s. Dog fights of those times did not involve 120C and AWACS. So, I pointed out at the short comings of his point. The word Obslete makes a strong point when differentiating 50 year from now.

Anyways, read post #31. what i posted>>>>
No surprise. Even IAF is of the opinion that in WVR gun kills will be the most important. Painting targets in WVR for missile kills is very difficult.

Try avoiding an IR missile along with the gun at the same time. There are a few notable changes since yom-kippur.

Similarly, the Basic Fighting Manoeuvres (BFM) that a fighter pilot of any modern airforce still learn today are the same ones that were used by Spitfire or P 51 Mustang…While we continue to add different elements in today’s air-campaign in terms of AWACS, EW, BVR, Thrust vectoring, IRSTS etc etc, but somehow the basic fighting techniques never seems to go away…:angel:

Flying is the same. Be it on a Mustang or a Viper. You need to learn the basics first. Rookies start on a subsonic trainer, learn basic maneuvers. Then go on to perform dog fights with other rookies as in WW2. Then they are given a supersonic fighter. After 6-12 months they are taught warfare in AWACS environment. Nobody whos born today jumps to a MKI tomorrow. Basics are important.
So is driving a car. You need to be trained specifically to drive a Ferrari Enzo or a Bugatti Veyron even if you have experience driving a normal car. They always start with the basics first.

Lastly, the tactics are always relative, if PAF was using obsolete tactics, so were the opponents….Present PAF might lack in the hardware but they definitely don’t lag in the tactics…And the shortcomings in the hardware will soon be overcome with planned inductions in a year or two….I wonder what you will say then ?

Thats of course good for PAF. But, it doesn't mean the situation remains the same. The capabilities of the Phalcon is way ahead compared to the Erieye. The hardware inductions of PAF with respect to IAF will remain the same. The only difference is IAF systems will be more capable and not to mention numerically superior.


Well, with their F-15s and F-16s, did they bring down any Mig-21 flown by a PAF pilot ??? They had the advantage of flying a much superior weapon system....What do you suggest, whom shall we give the credit to? Think about it…:coffee:

Nice, so you say PAF were evenly matched with the israeli F-15s and F-16s with no losses on both sides.
But, here, IAF Mig-21s brought down american F-15s and F-16s. So, now who shall we give credit to.:coffee:
 
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If you have unrealistic rules during training hen what can you expect else then to win? So next time you ask them only use the ejection handle and still claim kill... You surely suprise me here.

Do remind that USA needed funding then... They would accepted defeat by IA Boeing 737... You do remember the US shot down Iranian Boeing? It is surely something you should know next time you blaim training plane flying over a swamp for spying... Prada needs pratha.
 
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If you have unrealistic rules during training hen what can you expect else then to win? So next time you ask them only use the ejection handle and still claim kill... You surely suprise me here.

Nice try. So, IAF exercises were rigged. Is that the best you can come up with?

Do remind that USA needed funding then... They would accepted defeat by IA Boeing 737... You do remember the US shot down Iranian Boeing? It is surely something you should know next time you blaim training plane flying over a swamp for spying...

There is a difference between shooting down a civilian plane and an airforce plane. If I am not mistaken, the Atlantique had a big sign which read PAF. If PAF stands for some civilian entity and not the actual abbr for Pakistan's Airforce then your point is valid.

What were your "training" crew doing so close to the border? Definitely not a picnic at a swamp.

A PAF plane flying over a city, mil base, river, desert, swamp, hill, tent, pipe, toothbrush does not make a difference as long as it comes 10km to the border and is therefore liable to be shot down.

Prada needs pratha.

Whatever!!!!
 
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>>>Nice try. So, IAF exercises were rigged. Is that the best you can come up with?

So you have no reply? Isn't it the truth that junior F15 pilots had to fight senior Bison pilots without using BVR, AWACS and with less friendlies then ever will happen (say 5 friendlies against 10-20 IAF)? You might need to read what was written about Cope India and how much chest pumping was shown. Since you have no idea how well the Bison really performs besides copy to ines... BVR and good Israeli ECM... You still want to tell here that is was a fair fight? Is that really the best you can say? Damn.


>>>There is a difference between shooting down a civilian plane and an airforce plane. If I am not mistaken, the Atlantique had a big sign which read PAF. If PAF stands for some civilian entity and not the actual abbr for Pakistan's Airforce then your point is valid.

You know what happened to the EP3 above China... Normal rule is to guide enemy back. Everywhere. Only lunatics in India are trigger happy... Shame. That plane was attacked from below by IR... Close range. I call that idiots. You might have a different idea but you might wanna analyse pics.

>>>What were your "training" crew doing so close to the border? Definitely not a picnic at a swamp.

What kind of pathetic question is this? I hope you understand what a class was doing with avionics and navigation... Man, I am wasting my time with this moron. Ever wonder why a big group was inside a atlantique? The needed lots of eyes? You do know how big the swam was? And you do know that the parts fell into Pakistan and Indians stole parts just to show? You guys are the worst kind of people.

>>A PAF plane flying over a city, mil base, river, desert, swamp, hill, tent, pipe, toothbrush does not make a difference as long as it comes 10km to the border and is therefore liable to be shot down.

You should be shot. Period. Remove this idiot from this forum.



Whatever!!!![/QUOTE]
 
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So you have no reply? Isn't it the truth that junior F15 pilots had to fight senior Bison pilots without using BVR, AWACS and with less friendlies then ever will happen (say 5 friendlies against 10-20 IAF)?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/15551-paf-hall-fame.html

3 vs 10 during actual war. Such situations happen.

We were 4 vs 12. The scenario was a bomber fleet escorted by fighters into enemy territory for SEADs mission. There have been so many instances where the defending pilots were heavily outnumbered by the attacking force. The best example is PEARL HARBOUR. Some 300+ fighters against some handful of hawks and warhawks. This scenario is best seen during pre-emptive strikes.

Anyways, If the US sent their junior pilots then it is not our fault.
It does not mean it was rigged.

Anyways, all the fighters that IAF had during CI-2004 were INFERIOR to the US F-15Cs in technology. The F-15s had their radars ON while we had "verbal" AWACS support. Seems fair.

You might need to read what was written about Cope India and how much chest pumping was shown. Since you have no idea how well the Bison really performs besides copy to ines... BVR and good Israeli ECM... You still want to tell here that is was a fair fight? Is that really the best you can say? Damn.

Our media is built like that. Right now, there is a big issue just because the american prez Obama never called us. It is all over the forum.
We have so many 24 hours news channels that news gets saturated. They tend to keep repeating the news over and over again.

BVR and good israeli ECM is something that PAF doesnot have. And it matters.
If you fail to look at that then I cant help it.
The pilot in the video stresses on the BVR and ECM and calls the Mig-21 bison a superb plane. These are not my words.


You know what happened to the EP3 above China... Normal rule is to guide enemy back. Everywhere. Only lunatics in India are trigger happy... Shame. That plane was attacked from below by IR... Close range. I call that idiots. You might have a different idea but you might wanna analyse pics.

Look at the date. It was 1999, KARGIL WAR. Pak were trigger happy enough to start a WAR. We merely shot a plane. So, wheres the difference in that??????
We had every right to be trigger happy. It was a time of serious tensions and a recce comes chugging along to derail the frail ceasefire. Kargil War and Atlantique incident were not isolated incidents.

The Chinese situation was completely different. They were not at war.


What kind of pathetic question is this? I hope you understand what a class was doing with avionics and navigation...

Yes, a month after kargil war, a PAF plane comes along very close to the border. Too much to understand i guess.

Man, I am wasting my time with this moron.

Yes, personal attacks do more justice.

Ever wonder why a big group was inside a atlantique?

Sorry sir our Migs dont have the technology that says how many people are flying in a plane. All they saw was a PAF plane near the border and they shot it down.

You guys are the worst kind of people.

When it comes to international politics we are not saints and neither are you.

You should be shot. Period. Remove this idiot from this forum.

Personal attacks don't prove anything constructive. If you don't like me then just ignore me. No big deal.
 
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Yar Munir and X stop answering his threads, this guy is just here to disrupt things thats it nothing more. Most of his thread I have read he has a book in-front of him and using it. Most people like him come on the forum and act as if they have couple of thousand hours of fighter flying plus when it comes to Pakistan and India I know how good there pilot are just by attending one
Red Flag doesn't make you masters of the skies. I can't use that word on the forum but red flag is for Pu-----. Everything is controlled and executed from above in a real war 150 plane including tankers and AWACS flying with the fighters is not a real scenario.
1971, 7 hunters vs 3 Sabers we couldn't get them they could get us the whole thing lasted for 4 min and it was like the sky was lit up as 4th of July. Now Imagine 150 planes fighting with each other in a radius of 100 miles. It would be a slaughter yes in Iraq the enemy was again all talk and no show they shot most of the planes which were empty on AMO going for Iran or Syria. Rest were destroyed on the ground.
PAF which means Pakistan Air Force has fought Indians , IAF ( ARAB) and the USSR , if you guys don't remember let me refresh your memories all the Russkies we took down we were against odds and all PAF pilots were junior officers as compared to the Russkies.
Tech or no Tech you cant carry 20 missiles under your wings so when it comes to 1 on 1 thats were it all counts and to tell you the truth OLD tactics or new what ever it takes to bring the enemy under your gun-sight makes you the man up there.
Plus like to ask you when is the last time Indians went against PAF , I will tell you July 25th 1979 2 mirages VS 2 Bis , those Bis ran like as if they were canaries and they saw 2 eagles. Now thats DOD FIGHT.:lol:
 
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FYI: X-Man and Muradk are former PAF Pilots (with huge flying record) so they know a lot more then you P2Prada.
 
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