The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

[nitesh]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...ne=USAF%20Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action
good article:

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action

Nov 5, 2008
David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.

He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

 

[blain2]

You failed to add the AWACS into the picture too. Everytime there is an Indo-US exercise, there is always an american AWACs being used. The AWACs are not entirely compatible with the MKI. These differences actually pushes the favour to the americans.

In case there was a russian and indian exercise, with no restrictions and also incorporating russian AWACS. Then the situation would be completely different.

The only exercises we have had till now mainly involved dog fights in india except for the Malabar exercises.

The red flag exercises added multiple scenarios, but none of the trump cards that the MKI has can actually be used either due to self imposed restrictions or even compatibility issues. Even the BVR capability of the MKI would have utilized an American AWACs for lock on rather then the MKIs BARS. These things make a difference.

At the same time if you compare a US pak exercise, these same issues wouldn't plague the pakistanis.

There is no AWACS advantage in the 1v1 and WVR dogfights. The AWACS support is for both sides up to the merge. The USAF has never allowed IAF to fly blind. The E-3s provide verbal instructions with regards to vectors (not very different than being guided by a GCI with which IAF has plenty of experience). In the past exercises, the USAF E-3s were providing support to both sides.

Also the IAF aircrews were not all wet behind the years. Even during the exercise the USAF pilots and reports were stating that the senior pilots always fly with the younger ones in the rear seat and even the brief mentions that there was a senior/junior mix.

With regards to the BARS radar, while turning it on would be good, it cannot exceed the coverage

the AWACS provides in exercises like RF. So I am not sure if having the radar turned on would have changed things much. You have to follow parameters for acquisition and killing the adversary as laid down in the ex. once you meet those parameters you call Fox2/3 depending on what parameters you have met. So while a radar may have allowed the IAF to have its own picture in the air, it defeats the idea of working in a cooperative manner with assets such as the AWACS taking care of SA and building out the overall picture in the air. Maybe the digital hand-off between the E-3 and the MKIs needs to be figured out for future benefit.

 

[blain2]

The link will direct you to a very informative discussion on the videos posted by Munir:

F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Sorry to say but mostly Su and IAF fans nitpicking why the USAF pilot got the name of the Russian engine wrong etc. Details that neither matter nor are decisive in what went on in the air.

 

[blain2]

True, he also mentions that the F-22 was beaten the same way as the MKI by a F-16. They only found a way to counter MKIs TVC in a dog fight and not in BVR with the entire spectrum of the BARS on your behind.




Lets add LCA to the list too.

You can have the entire spectrum of BARS on someone's behind but if there is one thing that is quite evident is that jamming is effective and BARS is not immune to jamming. BARS is good but lets not make it out to be something out of this world. Most of the US, Western and Israeli jamming gear is top notch and will pose problems for any aircraft trying to paint the aircraft carrying such jamming kits.

 

[Munir]

How come that MKI has below average pilots that cannot beat lower gen aircafts with average pilots, less thrust, worser ecm and less advanced weapons?

Did they just got MKI? Nopes. Did they never train? Nopes. They have the fantastc Bison to train with

It strikes me that it takes that long to understand that you should not stall... Isn't that basic?

 

[p2prada]

There is no AWACS advantage in the 1v1 and WVR dogfights. The AWACS support is for both sides up to the merge. The USAF has never allowed IAF to fly blind. The E-3s provide verbal instructions with regards to vectors (not very different than being guided by a GCI with which IAF has plenty of experience). In the past exercises, the USAF E-3s were providing support to both sides.

1 on 1 dog fights were not the only ones.

So, you mean to say, indian pilots have the upperhand when they get verbal communication while the F-15s and F-16 get only a picture on their HUDs. Do i need to take a kindergarten course to believe that it is the other way round.

The F-15 pilots would get the exact position of the MKI while the MKI get a verbal confirmation that there is a F-15 somewhere near your 6 o clock. NICE!!!!
The F-15 pilot will be able to see the MKI on his screen while the MKI pilot will have to turn his head around in the cockpit.

Also the IAF aircrews were not all wet behind the years. Even during the exercise the USAF pilots and reports were stating that the senior pilots always fly with the younger ones in the rear seat and even the brief mentions that there was a senior/junior mix.

I mention this in my post. Read post number 13. I gave the example of sniper teams.
Please read my other posts too. The posts where i quote Munir. I am just repeating some of my points.

With regards to the BARS radar, while turning it on would be good, it cannot exceed the coverage

the AWACS provides in exercises like RF. So I am not sure if having the radar turned on would have changed things much.

But whats the use??? The MKI has no visual confirmation. No info on his screen to lock on to a target. The AWACS gives all the prickly details to the F-15 and gives only "verbal" confirmations to the MKI. Watch the video again. The MKI pilot couldnt even identify friend or foe from 20 miles, and you expect the MKI to lock on to an enemy target at a 100 miles. Our data link is not compatible with the US AWACS. The MKI can pick up electronic info only from its RWR, fat chance.

You have to follow parameters for acquisition and killing the adversary as laid down in the ex. once you meet those parameters you call Fox2/3 depending on what parameters you have met.

Acquisition...parameters.....not possible without any electronic info mate.

So while a radar may have allowed the IAF to have its own picture in the air, it defeats the idea of working in a cooperative manner with assets such as the AWACS taking care of SA and building out the overall picture in the air.

Ultimately, the MKIs did not have any picture in the air. the MKIs were only used in dog fights. The american F-15s decided to go WVR instead of BVR only cause of this difference. So did all the exercises till now. Only dog fights.

Maybe the digital hand-off between the E-3 and the MKIs needs to be figured out for future benefit.

Yes, or it will be better still if we start using Phalcons for future exercises.

 

[Munir]

PART 1

Discussion on the Su-30MKI. These were version five airplanes, they had vectored thrust, canards, all the advanced weapons the Russians build, including the AMRAAMSKI, and there (Archer?) there IR missile, which has a 30 mile range on it. Nothing classified, all can be found in Janes... etc...

The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take of, if you have one person who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft... yeah.... right, they can go find some other place to fly. So we trained with them, worked with them, and got them to shorten that down to 45 seconds, still not acceptable. But what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait orbit ahead and the rest would join up. They were very concerned about fod and how Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as Americans. One of the things the Indians were very disapointed in, if an engine breaks down, they make them send the engine back to Russia, then you'll send you back a new one.

There's a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MKI, side by side, and he does the exact same domonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with out airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are. And that's pretty impressive, it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons, so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better). OK, next.

Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. Ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment so they really hadn't had a lot of time flying. Anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we (IAF) shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

Now here at Mountain Home, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s.. Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters (F-15 and F-16) and engage in aircombat. Remember back in 4477th... Mig-21 had ability to get into the fight, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very maneuverable airplane, but it didn't have any good weapons. Now it has high off bore sight, helmet, jammer, good radar, and the archer, so that's the plane the SU-30 experianced pilots came out of.

So we get them to Mountain Home... amazingly, we dominated. Not with a clean F-15, we dominated with an F-15 in wartime configuration, I mean, 4 missile onboard, wingtanks, and they're sitting there in there Su-30s with ACMI pods. Floored to the point after the first 3 days, they didn't want any more 1 vs 1 stuff. Funny 'cause in India, they only wanted 1 vs 1 - cause they were winning.

The Sukhoi has TVC in a V (OFF AXIS 2D TVC... SEMI 3D TVC) . The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft the direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. It's a biiig airplane. A huge airplane. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles.

What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22... From our experience, that's the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. You would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the *** end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

The Su-30? No problem. Big aircraft. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 - 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the *** end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1


Part 2

While on paper, he has vectored thrust, all these great weapons and everything, he looks the same as a Raptor, he's no where near the same. So that was a really good thing for us to find out, that we really didn't know until this last excercise. Now, what I'm scared of, is congress is going to hear that and go 'great we don't need to buy any more airplanes... no no no, we used to be way ahead of them, now they're right up close to us and just a little bit higher. I say that they're just alittle bit better than us, is because when there pilots learn how to fly, they'll be abled to beat the F-16 and F-15, on a regular basis. Right now, they use TVC and just go into post stall.... so it's only a matter of time before they learn.

The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 5, one of there older airplanes, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced jet. 90% of the time, they followed the Indians in, but they never really came into the merge. Like in Iraq and Afghanastan, they would do local flights and say we participated, but what they were really doing is just sniffing electronically and finding out how our radars work. And that's really all they did out here.

One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. During their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. We had other expectations but they were quite good. And they're learning... The IAF was also very serious about another thing.

They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs. Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously. They did not have combat I.D capability.

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all like on the F-22. Had Isreali targetting and jamming pods on them. Incredible airplanes. Very professional also. But they had less than 50 hours on it and none on the airplane, they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.

So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn't happen.

Questions...

Was the AESA radar in the Indian...? Well the Indian is PESA which is not active but passive, as apposed to AESA. Huge diferance, the AESA pings more, and sees more, and is more accurate, than just a passively scanned radar. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems descriminating, and finding the right guy.

Some guy said F-15 was last dogfighting airplane, he discounted the fact the F-22 was really good...? I think the Raptor is the next great dogfighter we have. Reason is, electronic jamming, and not only electronic jamming, but we don't carry enough missiles. We're going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It's fast, maneuverable, .... and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft, because when the Bison that gets in unseen with the small RCS and jammer.... going to need maneuverability.

What about the F-35? Let's save that for another discussion. We do too much work on it at this moment, but we'll save that for another time.

 

[p2prada]

You can have the entire spectrum of BARS on someone's behind but if there is one thing that is quite evident is that jamming is effective and BARS is not immune to jamming. BARS is good but lets not make it out to be something out of this world.

let me quote from the article that nitesh posted.

"the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar."

Need I say more. Only Block 60 F-16s carry AESA.

Most of the US, Western and Israeli jamming gear is top notch and will pose problems for any aircraft trying to paint the aircraft carrying such jamming kits.

Our adversary is not US or Israel. Our adversary is Pakistan and China. Both don't have THE top notch systems. MKI is built to counter 18 F-16 Block 52s and Su-27s(J-11s) and not the F-22 and F-35.



One more quote
The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

The F-15s couldnt use their missiles. the MKI carries the same jammer that israel uses on its own set of F-15s.

 

[p2prada]

They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs. Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously. They did not have combat I.D capability.

All I can say is LOL!!!(sentence in read)

 

[blain2]

1 on 1 dog fights were not the only ones.

Read the article below or listen to the comments again ;-). Amraamski was not simulated so no Fox3 (BVR) shots. All action was WVR or in Air to surface roles.

So, you mean to say, indian pilots have the upperhand when they get verbal communication while the F-15s and F-16 get only a picture on their HUDs. Do i need to take a kindergarten course to believe that it is the other way round.

All I am saying is that getting verbal communications for vectoring is something which is not unheard of. It goes on in all of the exercises with different airforces and even at RF because not everyone comes to the exercise with Link16. Things do get done without the DL as well. Most Air Forces are still trying to bring this capability on line completely so its not unheard of for the AWACS to do the needful. It was done in CI and every single other exercise that IAF has participated in with the USAF and RAF.

The F-15 pilots would get the exact position of the MKI while the MKI get a verbal confirmation that there is a F-15 somewhere near your 6 o clock. NICE!!!!
The F-15 pilot will be able to see the MKI on his screen while the MKI pilot will have to turn his head around in the cockpit.

I think you need to look into how the LFEs are conducted. You do not go into these missions blind. The job of the AWACS is to vector you while making sure you are in a decent position on your way in to the target. For the past 30 years, the AWACS have been doing this same job without Data links (the entire Gulf war was conducted without data links). The USAF prior to the last 2 years ago was doing the same without DLs. The RAF has just started to go fully operational on the Link 16 architecture. Point being that IAF was not as blind as you are making them out to be. Had they DL, queuing of targets would have been easier, however thing do get done. Read the point about IAF going for the kills afterwards because they did not want to die. Obviously they were looking at something before calling fox2 on the aircraft in front of them. The radar was on but using training frequencies, so overall IAF was not totally blind.

I mention this in my post. Read post number 13. I gave the example of sniper teams.
Please read my other posts too. The posts where i quote Munir. I am just repeating some of my points.

no worries. I got your point.

But whats the use??? The MKI has no visual confirmation. No info on his screen to lock on to a target. The AWACS gives all the prickly details to the F-15 and gives only "verbal" confirmations to the MKI. Watch the video again. The MKI pilot couldnt even identify friend or foe from 20 miles, and you expect the MKI to lock on to an enemy target at a 100 miles. Our data link is not compatible with the US AWACS. The MKI can pick up electronic info only from its RWR, fat chance.

My friend, take a look at this:

MILAVIA Military Aviation Specials - Red Flag 2008-4: Flankers in Eagle's Realm
Moving to Nellis on August 8th, it became clear that the Indians suffered notable handicaps, some of them self-imposed. Contrary to last summer’s training at RAF Waddington in the UK, their NIIPBars radars were reportedly emitting this time, but only in a training mode that operates with reduced performance and features. Russian and Indian Officials were concerned not to reveal too many details of this sophisticated sensor (variants of which are to be used in the Su-35 and PAK-FA). The same holds true for the capabilities of the AA-12 Adder Air-to-Air Missile (R-77 “Amraamski&#8221 which was not to be simulated in the exercises, instead virtual A-10 “Archers” (R-73) had to be fired. Given that Red Flag is large enough in scale for Beyond-Visual-Range scenarios to come into play, these two systems would have made a considerable impact.

The underlined part reaffirms the point that the IAF had some situational awareness on their own in addition to what the AWACS was providing and were not as blind as they are being made out to be. The second part confirms that there were no BVR engagements because none of the BVR capability was simulated.

Acquisition...parameters.....not possible without any electronic info mate.

As I mentioned before, when you go to exercises such as the RF and are unwilling to turn on your AI radar, then you have to meet certain parameters (like range from the bogey etc., your favourable position with regards to the other guy and whether you have the other aircraft within your weapons engagement zone (based on the distance etc.) and then you call the shot verbally and the kill is recorded as long as you attain these parameters. This is how DACT has been conducted for decades now. Just because you are not queuing the targets electronically/digitally yourself does not mean that acquisition and attaining parameters is not possible. Also all of the radars have different modes that can be leveraged when going for WVR or BVR shots. Even the gun kill mode can be switched to via the stick (at least on the F-16 this is the case). So I do not buy that MKIs were taking WVR shots totally blind.

Ultimately, the MKIs did not have any picture in the air. the MKIs were only used in dog fights. The american F-15s decided to go WVR instead of BVR only cause of this difference. So did all the exercises till now. Only dog fights.

Not true. MKIs had a picture but it was not a digital picture. I simply cannot and do not buy that MKIs and their pilots are and have not been trained to vector to targets via verbal /analog communication. The Brits said that besides the accents, there were no issues vectoring the MKIs to the targets with the AWACs @ Indradhanush mind you . The reason for not going BVR is because IAF did not want to turn on their radars and like Indradhanush 07, it would have been useless for another aircraft equipped with an Air Intercept radar to paint the target at BVR for the MKIs to take a shot (something which was done by the Tornados for the MKIs). The point to drive home here is that while you have the TVC etc. and the MKI is considered to be an amazing dogfighter because of these assets, it was held up quite evenly by non-TVC equipped aircraft. Yes IAF will get better at employing the MKI in WVR combat, but that does not mean that the pilots flying F-15s/16s are getting less knowledgeable about counter measures against such a platform either.

Yes, or it will be better still if we start using Phalcons for future exercises.

I agree. I think eventually IAF will find that going to such exercises without being able to link up digitally with other aircraft and also not being able to leverage their on AI radar will be a detriment in their own aircrew's learning.

 

[blain2]

let me quote from the article that nitesh posted.

"the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar."

Need I say more. Only Block 60 F-16s carry AESA.



Our adversary is not US or Israel. Our adversary is Pakistan and China. Both don't have THE top notch systems. MKI is built to counter 18 F-16 Block 52s and Su-27s(J-11s) and not the F-22 and F-35.

See this -
"The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with our airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are".

Keep in mind that USAF does not fly anything beyond blk40 on the F-16s. Then the pilot goes on to say the following "We're going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It's fast, maneuverable, .... and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft, because when the Bison that gets in unseen with the small RCS and jammer.... going to need maneuverability." <-- he is actually giving more credit to a small and more nimble Mig-21 in the WVR arena than the big hulking MKI.

One more quote
The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

The F-15s couldnt use their missiles. the MKI carries the same jammer that israel uses on its own set of F-15s.

Yes that is correct, however you have not heard about what the US made jammers would be doing to Russian radars trying to paint them since they do not talk about them. I have no reason to believe that it would be any easier for the IAF to paint the US aircraft with the ALQ series ECM pods.

Also this counter to the stall maneuver that is being talked about so much is nothing new. Most of the Air forces training against TVC-equipped aircraft are aware of the energy loss in such a manuever on the part of the flankers and train to keep their distance or go vertical in such situations so they do not overshoot and can stay in a favourable position.

 

[Munir]

Do remind that PAF got latest jammers without the DRFM (which will be there under a different name) so not only wil they have everything updated they will be able to do it during combat if a totally new something starts painting them... ECM is not that much linked to a plane as my Indian friend sugests. If even a three deaceds old Bis was turned into mig21 Bison and did raise eyebrows then what would you expect from later born planes?

Somehow one need to think beyond the talks of that jockey.

 

[p2prada]

Read the article below or listen to the comments again ;-). Amraamski was not simulated so no Fox3 (BVR) shots. All action was WVR or in Air to surface roles.

I was taking about the other exercises in india and not about red flag.

I think you need to look into how the LFEs are conducted. You do not go into these missions blind. The job of the AWACS is to vector you while making sure you are in a decent position on your way in to the target. For the past 30 years, the AWACS have been doing this same job without Data links (the entire Gulf war was conducted without data links). The USAF prior to the last 2 years ago was doing the same without DLs. The RAF has just started to go fully operational on the Link 16 architecture. Point being that IAF was not as blind as you are making them out to be. Had they DL, queuing of targets would have been easier, however thing do get done. Read the point about IAF going for the kills afterwards because they did not want to die. Obviously they were looking at something before calling fox2 on the aircraft in front of them. The radar was on but using training frequencies, so overall IAF was not totally blind.

I agree with what you say. IAF was not completely blind. But the US enjoyed total situational awareness while we were handicapped.

your favourable position with regards to the other guy and whether you have the other aircraft within your weapons engagement zone (based on the distance etc.) and then you call the shot verbally and the kill is recorded as long as you attain these parameters.

Painting the target is way faster than verbal communication. Read Post 24. We did not have Combat ID capability. It says a lot if u can't recognize targets. Verbal is not as fast and effective as digital. We were in for fratricide. That doesnot say much about the verbal comunications. This is like you said, 30 years old. The MKIs were using 30 year old communication practices compared to USAF's 21st century capabilities.

Not true. MKIs had a picture but it was not a digital picture. I simply cannot and do not buy that MKIs and their pilots are and have not been trained to vector to targets via verbal /analog communication.

We were still handicapped compared to the USAF, French AF and SK AF.


How would this sound. An american pilot flying his F-15 20 miles in front of the MKIs. The F-15 pilot would expect the MKIs to back him up(same teams of course) while facing 5 F-15 boogies coming from the opposite direction. A second later the MKIs would verbally confirm a kill on the F-15 committing a fratricide. Then the MKIs would pick up the 5 boogies heading straight towards them using their training signals.

In the mean time the MKI pilots would learn that they shot down their own aircraft and now have to come up with a strategy to defeat the unknown F-15s, whose allegiance is yet to be confirmed "verbally" by the AWACS. How messed up??? Utter confusion!!!!! The downed F-15 pilot would only be cursing his luck and the MKIs would only try to engage the boogies, not knowing if it is their own. The combat effectiveness of the MKI pilots will be down considerably.

It seems to me that the Indian participation was only holding back the exercise. It would seriously be better if the Israelis are also involved with their Phalcons the next time.

Again, according to the pilot in the video, MKIs only had situational awareness a little over 20 miles while the US and other pilots could SEE the entire battlespace (over 300 miles in radius). The MKIs needed VERBAL confirmation to know that there are no boogies within 40 miles of their position.

Maybe not literally, but we were Blind nonetheless.

 

[p2prada]

Do remind that PAF got latest jammers without the DRFM (which will be there under a different name) so not only wil they have everything updated they will be able to do it during combat if a totally new something starts painting them... ECM is not that much linked to a plane as my Indian friend sugests. If even a three deaceds old Bis was turned into mig21 Bison and did raise eyebrows then what would you expect from later born planes?

Somehow one need to think beyond the talks of that jockey.

Then in that case, PAF will be heavily outnumbered. 60 odd F-16s against 200+ MKIs, 150+ bisons, probably the F-16s from MRCA(AESA included). Lets not make it a indo-pak slug fest plz.

I pointed out that the MKIs config matches the scenario in the sub continent.
Let the russians match their Su-35s with the amrricans and europeans.

ECM is not that much linked to a plane as my Indian friend sugests.

Are you suggesting the Prowler and Growler are useless. Or the fact that israel totally outclassed the arabs because of ECM capabilities.

 

[Munir]

Then in that case, PAF will be heavily outnumbered. 60 odd F-16s against 200+ MKIs, 150+ bisons, probably the F-16s from MRCA(AESA included). Lets not make it a indo-pak slug fest plz.

I pointed out that the MKIs config matches the scenario in the sub continent.
Let the russians match their Su-35s with the amrricans and europeans.



Are you suggesting the Prowler and Growler are useless. Or the fact that israel totally outclassed the arabs because of ECM capabilities.

When are you going to fly 200 MKI's if you need minute space between them? Let us see wether IAF can maintain thse numbers... 400 engines to do... You will need direct transport link with Mosqua... And if you have 200 MKI in the air there is no rom for anything else...

The point is that you hardly have knowledge of what airwar really means. You have some airport in the neighbourhood. You will be there to see that none of the runways wil be used... And stop bashing the arrogant tone when comparing it to PAF. Numbers do not mean everything cause otherwise you would have run over PAF long time ago.


The bison will be hardly more then point defense. Same as PG's. Count them out of the equatation. Try to avoid the 250+ JF17's all bvr, IFR and hms helped a bit with il76 tankers and Erieye (or the other airborn or land based radars)... The moment your first MKI gets in the air you will see a lot more coming towards it. And it isn't that difficult to hit that.

Do notice PAF is not Irac and you are not USA. You will be running back. Promised.

p.s. How did you get 400 posts?