The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

[p2prada]

See this -
"The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with our airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are".

He is brilliant at playing with words. He clearly mentions the F-15s can beat the MKIs in a dog fight. So, when he says "a tad bit better" does he mean BVR????? Simply saying MKIs radar and missiles are better than what the F-15 fielded isn't completely justified.

Look, in india the MKIs can use their radars fully during normal IAF exercises. These are the same MKIs that have beaten the so called "stealth" Mig-21 bisons. The same Mig-21 bisons are termed "stealthy" by the americans and are difficult to intercept by F-15s. So, you can add the 2 together and finally understand where the MKI actually stands with the BARS in action.

Keep in mind that USAF does not fly anything beyond blk40 on the F-16s. Then the pilot goes on to say the following "We're going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It's fast, maneuverable, .... and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft

No surprise. Even IAF is of the opinion that in WVR gun kills will be the most important. Painting targets in WVR for missile kills is very difficult.

because when the Bison that gets in unseen with the small RCS and jammer.... going to need maneuverability." <-- he is actually giving more credit to a small and more nimble Mig-21 in the WVR arena than the big hulking MKI.

The Mig-21s have been beaten in combat by MKIs. Maybe not in WVR but in BVR.

Yes that is correct, however you have not heard about what the US made jammers would be doing to Russian radars trying to paint them since they do not talk about them. I have no reason to believe that it would be any easier for the IAF to paint the US aircraft with the ALQ series ECM pods.

Same to same.

Also this counter to the stall maneuver that is being talked about so much is nothing new. Most of the Air forces training against TVC-equipped aircraft are aware of the energy loss in such a manuever on the part of the flankers and train to keep their distance or go vertical in such situations so they do not overshoot and can stay in a favourable position.

Most are aware of this drawback not just in other airforces but even in forums.

But, TVC isnt used only in WVR for dog fights. They have excellent functions in BVR combat too. Do u know that trying to paint an MKI a hundred miles away is difficult if the MKI suddenly "stops" mid air. Why else do u think helicopters are so difficult to target using conventional radars.

 

[blain2]

How would this sound. An american pilot flying his F-15 20 miles in front of the MKIs. The F-15 pilot would expect the MKIs to back him up(same teams of course) while facing 5 F-15 boogies coming from the opposite direction. A second later the MKIs would verbally confirm a kill on the F-15 committing a fratricide. Then the MKIs would pick up the 5 boogies heading straight towards them using their training signals.

In the mean time the MKI pilots would learn that they shot down their own aircraft and now have to come up with a strategy to defeat the unknown F-15s, whose allegiance is yet to be confirmed "verbally" by the AWACS. How messed up??? Utter confusion!!!!! The downed F-15 pilot would only be cursing his luck and the MKIs would only try to engage the boogies, not knowing if it is their own. The combat effectiveness of the MKI pilots will be down considerably
It seems to me that the Indian participation was only holding back the exercise. It would seriously be better if the Israelis are also involved with their Phalcons the next time.

Again, according to the pilot in the video, MKIs only had situational awareness a little over 20 miles while the US and other pilots could SEE the entire battlespace (over 300 miles in radius). The MKIs needed VERBAL confirmation to know that there are no boogies within 40 miles of their position.

Maybe not literally, but we were Blind nonetheless.

Prada,

Believe me things are not so one-sided as you are assuming them to be. Exercises are typically held with parameters that are fairly even. If one side is considerably disadvantaged then the other side makes changes to the RoEs so things are more even.

Let me also clear a few things. In 1vs 1 engagements, the aircraft merge and then go at it on their own. There is no guidance via the DL or analog communication for vectoring from the AEW. The specific part about IAF not seeing others at 20-30 miles out and waiting for the AEW to queue the information verbally was in LFE scenarios where you have multiple bogeys in front of you and could have friendlies mixed in there as well. Here having a DL in addition to an enabled IFF system would be helpful. However the losses that MKIs suffered were in other profiles as well (like 1v1 WVR).

 

[Munir]

purely arrogance.

 

[p2prada]

Prada,

Believe me things are not so one-sided as you are assuming them to be. Exercises are typically held with parameters that are fairly even. If one side is considerably disadvantaged then the other side makes changes to the RoEs so things are more even.

Let me also clear a few things. In 1vs 1 engagements, the aircraft merge and then go at it on their own. There is no guidance via the DL or analog communication for vectoring from the AEW. The specific part about IAF not seeing others at 20-30 miles out and waiting for the AEW to queue the information verbally was in LFE scenarios where you have multiple bogeys in front of you and could have friendlies mixed in there as well. Here having a DL in addition to an enabled IFF system would be helpful. However the losses that MKIs suffered were in other profiles as well (like 1v1 WVR).

I do get the picture. We were clearly beaten in 1v1 combat.

But, at the same time we did well in crippling conditions in the LFEs too, as the pilot pointed out. Our professionalism was praised too. We never left the combat zone even when blind.

This will only get better in time and also with the assimilation of new technologies, namely the Phalcon.

Here having a DL in addition to an enabled IFF system would be helpful.

Data link would help. But, it has to be compatible with the russian radar, indian RWR and also follow russian programs on the russian BUS. Just integrating the Israeli components took 6 years.
Its been 4 years since US india exercises started. Do u know why we haven't worked on a satisfying IFF for such exercises for over 4 years??

 

[blain2]

He is brilliant at playing with words. He clearly mentions the F-15s can beat the MKIs in a dog fight. So, when he says "a tad bit better" does he mean BVR????? Simply saying MKIs radar and missiles are better than what the F-15 fielded isn't completely justified.

His discussions are all around WVR. They did not have BVR engagements. So not sure how he is playing with words? On the BVR side, you have another set of challenges. Fine you have the super-duper 250km range on your radar, however just like your Bisons, his aircraft also has massive jamming capabilities with bigger emitters. So trying to paint the aircraft as that distance and locking on is a challenge as well.

Look, in india the MKIs can use their radars fully during normal IAF exercises. These are the same MKIs that have beaten the so called "stealth" Mig-21 bisons. The same Mig-21 bisons are termed "stealthy" by the americans and are difficult to intercept by F-15s. So, you can add the 2 together and finally understand where the MKI actually stands with the BARS in action.

Ok we are getting carried away with some of the compliments given to the Mig-21. Jamming is something that all aircraft do and can use it effectively against other missiles. So when he says "stealthy" he is saying that the F-15 is unable to paint the aircraft. That is fine and expected with any aircraft equipped with a decent jammer. However for you to take that and assume that Mig-21 bison is hard to kill is way off. F-16s and F-15s would put circles around the Mig-21 in WVR. We do it all the time with our F-16s against more agile F-7PGs (with double-cranked deltas).

In your exercises, there are very many variables that you are not discussing. How about that fact that the MKIs detect the Bison earlier and kills it and the Bison never even sees the MKI for it to be able to jam? In CI-05 a USAF pilot (Moose69 at F-16.net) had said that F-16s were just fine against the Fulcrum and Mig-21 but the aircraft to be careful around was the Mirage 2000 (which we all know has very similar capabilities as the Viper in close in combat). So
I am not sure if you are comparing apples to apples here. You have given no information on what the parameters were in the MKI vs Bison engagements.

The Mig-21s have been beaten in combat by MKIs. Maybe not in WVR but in BVR.

I am not surprised at all. Have you seen the small size of the Bison or Mig-21 in general? How much hardware can you put in that aircraft for it to be able to effectively jam at extended ranges or even detect the adversary at extended ranges and use its weapons to benefit? I am sure the results would be no different if the Bison was going up against an F-16 or F-15 with AMRAAM.

Most are aware of this drawback not just in other airforces but even in forums.

But, TVC isnt used only in WVR for dog fights. They have excellent functions in BVR combat too. Do u know that trying to paint an MKI a hundred miles away is difficult if the MKI suddenly "stops" mid air. Why else do u think helicopters are so difficult to target using conventional radars.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry to say this but this is utter nonsense and a myth being propagated on the Internet by the fans of TV. PD or AESA radars do not care if an object has slowed down or stops in the air. The radar still beams out to the target and gets its position (even if it has stopped in the middle of the air) and active BVR missiles like the AMRAAM adjust accordingly. In WVR, this could make a difference if you overshoot or the missile overshoots (however with 5th gen WVR AAMs pulling 50 Gs and having high offboresight/full sphere capability, this will be hard to pull). As such, those flying against TV equipped aircraft keep some distance and try to slow down when such maneuvers are being attempted. You stopping in mid-air does not fool a WVR AAM which is homing in to your IR signature.

Not sure where you got that piece of about Helicopters being difficult to target? Its not a problem with detection and targeting, its just that for fast moving jets, there is a very small window in which they can target slow movers like helicopters due to the speed variable if they were going for a gun kill. With a missile shot, the helicopter is as vulnerable as anything.

 

[p2prada]

purely arrogance.

You are easily twice my age. If you believe I am arrogant over something that is not right, then it is my mistake. But, here you are just targeting my patriotism, which cannot actually be called arrogance.
But, in this particular post, you can judge it to be arrogant cause I am only speaking my mind.

Patriotism is plain arrogance. Everybody shows it.

 

[Munir]

ar&#183;ro&#183;gance (r-gns)
n.
The state or quality of being arrogant; overbearing pride.

pa&#183;tri&#183;ot&#183;ism (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

I hardly see a relationship with devotion to India telling that it has 200 MKI's that will win everything.

 

[blain2]

Our professionalism was praised too. We never left the combat zone even when blind.

This will only get better in time and also with the assimilation of new technologies, namely the Phalcon.

You wont find me disagreeing here. I am not one to belittle the IAF but at the same time I think that Indians get carried away with the hype around these exercises.

 

[Munir]

I heard PAF did a great job with oudated planes against superior US planes in the past. I know that in reality it does not mean they will get a chance to make the difference. I agree with Blain that one should not get superhappy with just showing that one has a nice plane. Let us move to none plane field. The Dutch won navy battle with smaller ships while the Spanish Armada was the strongest at that moment. Tiger tank was the best during world war 2 yet it has to get problems fighting a simpler tank. Mig21 was a lot better then a sabre yet you know the result. And Gnat should not be a impressive plane but it did a lot more then...

So IAF might ever have lots of MKI's. It will not make any difference.

 

[p2prada]

His discussions are all around WVR. They did not have BVR engagements. So not sure how he is playing with words? On the BVR side, you have another set of challenges. Fine you have the super-duper 250km range on your radar, however just like your Bisons, his aircraft also has massive jamming capabilities with bigger emitters. So trying to paint the aircraft as that distance and locking on is a challenge as well.

Yes, the F-15, MKI and Bison have excellent jamming capabilities. But, what the US pilot pointed out is that the Mig-21 can actually see the F-15 on the radar first. And that the F-15 actually sees the Mig-21 only if they merge or if the mig-21 actually fires a missile after locking on to the F-15. Until then, it stays invisible. That is what he stressed on. The Mig-21 closes in on the F-15 "unseen" and then engages it in battle giving it first look first kill capability. But, at the same time, the MKIs which were beaten by the F-15s in WVR are capable of bringing down the same Mig-21s in india. This is how he is playing with words.

Ok we are getting carried away with some of the compliments given to the Mig-21. Jamming is something that all aircraft do and can use it effectively against other missiles. So when he says "stealthy" he is saying that the F-15 is unable to paint the aircraft. That is fine and expected with any aircraft equipped with a decent jammer. However for you to take that and assume that Mig-21 bison is hard to kill is way off. F-16s and F-15s would put circles around the Mig-21 in WVR. We do it all the time with our F-16s against more agile F-7PGs (with double-cranked deltas).

I said the Mig gets first look first kill. I and neither did the US pilot say they cannot be killed.

In your exercises, there are very many variables that you are not discussing. How about that fact that the MKIs detect the Bison earlier and kills it and the Bison never even sees the MKI for it to be able to jam? In CI-05 a USAF pilot (Moose69 at F-16.net) had said that F-16s were just fine against the Fulcrum and Mig-21 but the aircraft to be careful around was the Mirage 2000 (which we all know has very similar capabilities as the Viper in close in combat). So
I am not sure if you are comparing apples to apples here. You have given no information on what the parameters were in the MKI vs Bison engagements.

It is not necessary the pilot Moose is talking about the same scenario that the F-15 pilot in the video is talking about. In the video, when asked the question "F-15 be the last dog fighter" as claimed by another pilot. Our pilot in the video said NO. So, this difference in opinion always exists among pilots, after all they are human. Some would say the Mig 21 is a bigger threat while some would say the Mirage is. These opinions are heavily influenced by personal experiences. Probably during the exercises he saw the Mirages pushing the F-16s into the corner while the Mig-21s took em out. And Moose, a F-16 pilot points out that the Mirages were more of a threat to the F-16. At the same time the F-15 pilot points out that the Migs are a bigger threat since the Mig get first look due to the F-15s big RCS.

As for MKI vs Mig i have no such info. maybe someone else in this forum can help out.

I am not surprised at all. Have you seen the small size of the Bison or Mig-21 in general? How much hardware can you put in that aircraft for it to be able to effectively jam at extended ranges or even detect the adversary at extended ranges and use its weapons to benefit? I am sure the results would be no different if the Bison was going up against an F-16 or F-15 with AMRAAM.

The same as my reply in the first paragraph of this post. The mig is not spotted unless it starts engagement. So, where is the question of using AMRAAMs.

Sorry to say this but this is utter nonsense and a myth being propagated on the Internet by the fans of TV. PD or AESA radars do not care if an object has slowed down or stops in the air. The radar still beams out to the target and gets its position (even if it has stopped in the middle of the air) and active BVR missiles like the AMRAAM adjust accordingly. In WVR, this could make a difference if you overshoot or the missile overshoots (however with 5th gen WVR AAMs pulling 50 Gs and having high offboresight/full sphere capability, this will be hard to pull). As such, those flying against TV equipped aircraft keep some distance and try to slow down when such maneuvers are being attempted. You stopping in mid-air does not fool a WVR AAM which is homing in to your IR signature.

Not sure where you got that piece of about Helicopters being difficult to target? Its not a problem with detection and targeting, its just that for fast moving jets, there is a very small window in which they can target slow movers like helicopters due to the speed variable if they were going for a gun kill. With a missile shot, the helicopter is as vulnerable as anything.

I expected it to be a rumour. I just wanted it confirmed by a pilot. Or else i wouldnt even have brought it up.

 

[p2prada]

ar·ro·gance (r-gns)
n.
The state or quality of being arrogant; overbearing pride.

pa·tri·ot·ism (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

Quoting a dictionary doesnot change the multiple meanings a single word can possess. Look at the number of times the F-15 pilot himself has shown arrogance.

His words:"The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better). OK, next."

So, is that arrogance shown by patriotism.
Then he said more

"After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1"

Again:"The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 5, one of there older airplanes, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced jet. 90% of the time, they followed the Indians in, but they never really came into the merge. Like in Iraq and Afghanastan, they would do local flights and say we participated, but what they were really doing is just sniffing electronically and finding out how our radars work. And that's really all they did out here."


So, does all this indicate overbearing pride.

I hardly see a relationship with devotion to India telling that it has 200 MKI's that will win everything.

I hardly see the point in saying 250 JF-17s, IL-76 and Erieye can actually stop 200 MKIs.

 

[Munir]

>>>The mig is not spotted unless it starts engagement. So, where is the question of using AMRAAMs.

With IRST there is little chance that in the future small planes are not visually tracked. JF17 is planned to have that. JSF has 360 coverage and it tracks everything ir/visualy/passive etc.


About F15 pilot. I agree that he has the typical cocky attitude. But in that he is no much different to most other pilots.

About patriotism. I might be patriot but I still see technology as more important logic then overestimating a force without any variable or history.

About Rafale. Konwn fact. Nothing about pride.

About difference between MKI and F22... I do no think that he is over estimating the difference. You think that MKI wins anyhing against F22? That plane is at the moment superb... MKI is just a nice to have but not the best and not handy in some battles.

 

[p2prada]

With IRST there is little chance that in the future small planes are not visually tracked. JF17 is planned to have that. JSF has 360 coverage and it tracks everything ir/visualy/passive etc.

The Mig35 and even our LCA is supposed to go that way. Look at the OLS itself. but IRSTs dont go beyond radar range. Max would be around 15-20km for small targets like the LCA or Mig-21. So, there is still no question of using AMRAAMs, they are BVR.

About F15 pilot. I agree that he has the typical cocky attitude. But in that he is no much different to most other pilots.

HEHE!! I hope Blain doesnot take this personally.

About patriotism. I might be patriot but I still see technology as more important logic then overestimating a force without any variable or history.

Yes, it means you are realistic. But, when I pointed out about other fighters like Migs and MRCA you just called me arrogant. I am patriotic too and also realistic. My opinions on the MKI differs from yours. but, I dont see why I must give up my opinions for yours.

About Rafale. Konwn fact. Nothing about pride.

I wasnt talking about the Rafale. I was pointing out to the deep prejudice that he has for the french. He mentioned all participating airforces in glowing terms while calling the french technology thieves. It only resonates with the US govt stance on the French.

About difference between MKI and F22... I do no think that he is over estimating the difference. You think that MKI wins anyhing against F22? That plane is at the moment superb... MKI is just a nice to have but not the best and not handy in some battles.

No point comparing the MKI with the Raptor. Maybe a decade later, when the PAKFA comes out. But, until then, technology wise the MKI is capable and with other smaller craft like LCA and Mig-21 complementing her, would make her a potent platform.

 

[blain2]

Yes, the F-15, MKI and Bison have excellent jamming capabilities. But, what the US pilot pointed out is that the Mig-21 can actually see the F-15 on the radar first. And that the F-15 actually sees the Mig-21 only if they merge or if the mig-21 actually fires a missile after locking on to the F-15. Until then, it stays invisible. That is what he stressed on. The Mig-21 closes in on the F-15 "unseen" and then engages it in battle giving it first look first kill capability. But, at the same time, the MKIs which were beaten by the F-15s in WVR are capable of bringing down the same Mig-21s in india. This is how he is playing with words.

Prada,

I think you are reading way too much into the comments All that the pilot says is that Mig-21 jammed so this allowed the aircraft to get into the merge "mean they could close in on our legacy fighters (F-15 and F-16) and engage in aircombat". It says nothing about the Mig-21 can see the F-15 on the radar first anywhere. The Mig-21 has nothing that cloaks it. The F-15 radar sees the Mig-21. However the F-15 cannot get a missile lock onto the aircraft due to the jamming. There is no such a thing as blinding the radar. You are not flying a stealth aircraft sir!

I said the Mig gets first look first kill. I and neither did the US pilot say they cannot be killed.

Not true. Even if Mig-21 gets the first look visually, both F-15 and F-16 have better flight characteristics to get out of a messy situation. If they are piloted bad then yes even a Mig-21 can take them out.

It is not necessary the pilot Moose is talking about the same scenario that the F-15 pilot in the video is talking about. In the video, when asked the question "F-15 be the last dog fighter" as claimed by another pilot. Our pilot in the video said NO. So, this difference in opinion always exists among pilots, after all they are human. Some would say the Mig 21 is a bigger threat while some would say the Mirage is.

As much as it may make you feel good, against F-16s and F-15s in a turning fight (equipped with HMS etc.), Mig-21 Bison is not the aircraft I would bet on. Mirage 2000 has flight characteristics that vastly exceed those of the Mig-21. The USAF was surprised by the Bison (due to its upgrades), but nowhere have they said that this aircraft is a game changer even versus the legacy US fighters.

These opinions are heavily influenced by personal experiences. Probably during the exercises he saw the Mirages pushing the F-16s into the corner while the Mig-21s took em out. And Moose, a F-16 pilot points out that the Mirages were more of a threat to the F-16. At the same time the F-15 pilot points out that the Migs are a bigger threat since the Mig get first look due to the F-15s big RCS.

Personal experience has a definite part to play. Not discounting that. However you are over blowing the impact of the Mig-21 Bison. In any case, since the Bisons had nothing to do with RF, its a moot point discussing those.

The same as my reply in the first paragraph of this post. The mig is not spotted unless it starts engagement. So, where is the question of using AMRAAMs.

Again you are mistaken in your understanding my friend (the USAF pilot is not teaching a aviation 101 class for him to say everything. You need to understand and read between the lines). There is a difference in detecting and tracking via radar, and locking on. Even with locking on, there is a difference because WVR and BVR missiles use different types of guidance to home into a target. The Bison is no F/A-22 in that it is not seen on the radar. The Viper and Eagle pilots see it just fine, when you try to queue a SRAAM missile against it, then the jamming gets in the way. The same goes on with Rafales with Spectra, F-16s with their ECM suites etc. etc. The Mig-21 is no match for either the F-16 and F-15 if the latter are flown with skill. We have had kills against USAF F-15s with non-AI radar equipped F-6s and Mirages and that had all to do with pilot skills. So pilot skills and tactics that surprised US pilots should not be mistaken for some sort of a capability on the aircraft itself.

 

[Munir]

If you are without decent AWACS and all alone up there... You might get bugged by a mig21 bison if he shuts down radar and gets close wthout being seen. Then you might have to dog his BVR and hope he will stay out of your dangerzone. When it launches BVR it still has to rutn his radar on. Or you will see aomething at your MAWS anyway. Even if mig21 bison gets close the well trained fighterpilot should be able to handle that. With HMS and lots more avionics on F15 (and do not forget AIM9X) you will see that mig21 will have a bigger limit...

Do not forget that somethign that jams is something that can be seen... If you have decent ECCM.

They will not see Mig21 a long way from its base... Even if it is in the air... I bet the other planes are finishing the runway... There is no mission defined that planes fly for fun along airfields without bombing the runways first. The mig is just a point defence fighter. And the point is extremely short. Still, nice machine but not in real combat scenario.