Turkiye's Minister of National Defense Guler: Agreement with Pakistan for KAAN is about to be signed

[FuturePAF]

Why not WS-15, albeit an "export" version?

I don’t think it would be cleared for export for some time. The PAF would have to produce a fighter equipped with the WS-15 first, I’d assume, and it doesn’t look like the idea of a WS-15 equipped J-10 is gaining any traction, regardless of how many times it has been suggested, by myself and others.

Even a 170 kn export version of WS-15 on a follow up single engine stealth fighter derivative of the the J-10 (similar to the SAAB FS-2020 design) has been called a waste, apparently because China is moving on to 6 th generation jets and drone swarms to match the U.S. NGAD programs.

When we see why is required to designate an aircraft a 6th Gen fighter, I will try to come back to the design of the SAAB FS2020 and see if I can still advocate for a similar/updated design is still a viable replacement of the JF-17; the backbone fighter of the PAF, in manned and unmanned variants.

 

[Goritoes]

nope, it was submitted 2 days ago and lobbied for by the UK, some opposition from japan but strong british lobbying so we shall see

UK denies Saudi Arabian announcement on joining Future Combat Air System

The United Kingdom has said that Saudi Arabia is not joining its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme, but is instead pursuing “a partnering feasibility study” to...

www.janes.com

Despite Saudi statement, KSA not joining UK-led FCAS program - at least not yet - Breaking Defense

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia minister of defense Khalid bin Salman said he signed a letter of intent with his UK counterpart regarding the KSA's participation in the Future Air Capabilities Program (FCAS).

breakingdefense.com

 

[Cookie Monster]

Details will be announced soon. However, the fact that secure communication protocols are being established between institutions indicates that it will be a comprehensive work sharing rather than a sub-contract. I have written my personal opinion many times before. The programme can be taken to a common denominator according to the expectations of both air forces and other potential participants who will have technology development level cooperation. Or, Pakistan can proceed with its own fully specialised variant with its own needs. However, common infrastructure and risk sharing will provide all participating countries with a completely independent multiplier outside the traditional eastern or western logistics system, and it is this process of political independence that I constantly underline. Fully independent air force = Fully independent foreign policy.

IMO both Pakistan and Turkey need an air superiority fighter(more akin to F22 rather than the F35)...in that regard the general design and aerodynamics of KAAN suits both air forces. It would most likely serve as a replacement to the F16s in both airforces. The differences might be in each using their respective data links(Turkey being part of NATO while Pakistan probably using Link 17) and integration of their own munitions. For example Turkey will have far better access to Western munitions while Pakistan will be restricted and instead rely on Turkish and Chinese weapons along with some of its own. If the partnership does materialize then both variants of KAAN(the Turkish and Pakistani ones) will be something akin to the American F35 and Israeli F35(with Israel having some modifications to suit its own needs while the general design, aerodynamics, and much of the software is the same).

 

[arslank03]

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UK denies Saudi Arabian announcement on joining Future Combat Air System

The United Kingdom has said that Saudi Arabia is not joining its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme, but is instead pursuing “a partnering feasibility study” to...

www.janes.com

Despite Saudi statement, KSA not joining UK-led FCAS program - at least not yet - Breaking Defense

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia minister of defense Khalid bin Salman said he signed a letter of intent with his UK counterpart regarding the KSA's participation in the Future Air Capabilities Program (FCAS).

breakingdefense.com

this is not what i am referring to. They submitted a request a few days ago, in that they claimed to be a part of it already which was denied. It wont hurt to do some reading

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Pakistan has operated a variant of the F16 with its F-110 engine (for 4 decades now)

Pakistan uses P&W engine on its f16s Sir not GE F110 engine Sir

 

[Tank131]

I could see Pakistani variants using a Chinese turbofan if a turkish one doesn't materialize fast enough, but i doubt any chinese weapons would make their way to KAAN. Pakistani weapons for sure, but highly unlikely Chinese or Turks would share source codes for their respective tech, just as Chinese weaponry wasnt ultimately used on Baburs.

In PAF i definitely see these as an F-16 replacement. I dont think they will replace all F-16 in TuAF as the Turks were given the greenlight for the Ozgur upgrade and will likely be approved for new F-16V in the coming months. I think acquisitions of J-10 will reach 100 and KAAN could teach 100 as well by 2038/2040. Hopefully they would eventually phase out JF-17 and J-10 as well and the same consortium of countries will also be planning on moving to 6th gen system. To begin induction by 2050.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan uses P&W engine on its f16s Sir not GE F110 engine Sir

Thanks for the clarification, good sir. Perhaps having operated F-110 engines from different manufacturers will allow the PAF/PAC team to share their 4 decades of operational and maintenance experience in how the P&W variant performed (in whole or part) and the can compare notes with the Turks and their experience with the GE variants.

I could see Pakistani variants using a Chinese turbofan if a turkish one doesn't materialize fast enough, but i doubt any chinese weapons would make their way to KAAN. Pakistani weapons for sure, but highly unlikely Chinese or Turks would share source codes for their respective tech, just as Chinese weaponry wasnt ultimately used on Baburs.

In PAF i definitely see these as an F-16 replacement. I dont think they will replace all F-16 in TuAF as the Turks were given the greenlight for the Ozgur upgrade and will likely be approved for new F-16V in the coming months. I think acquisitions of J-10 will reach 100 and KAAN could teach 100 as well by 2038/2040. Hopefully they would eventually phase out JF-17 and J-10 as well and the same consortium of countries will also be planning on moving to 6th gen system. To begin induction by 2050.

Technology and politics seem to be evolving so quickly that it’s hard to predict the PAF ORBAT beyond the confirmed projects.

Improved Politics and finances could allow the PAF to operate the F-16s for decades to come or if political or economic headwinds require see them prematurely (at some point when the maintenance/support contracts run out).

 

[GreatHanWarrior]

I could see Pakistani variants using a Chinese turbofan if a turkish one doesn't materialize fast enough, but i doubt any chinese weapons would make their way to KAAN. Pakistani weapons for sure, but highly unlikely Chinese or Turks would share source codes for their respective tech, just as Chinese weaponry wasnt ultimately used on Baburs.

In PAF i definitely see these as an F-16 replacement. I dont think they will replace all F-16 in TuAF as the Turks were given the greenlight for the Ozgur upgrade and will likely be approved for new F-16V in the coming months. I think acquisitions of J-10 will reach 100 and KAAN could teach 100 as well by 2038/2040. Hopefully they would eventually phase out JF-17 and J-10 as well and the same consortium of countries will also be planning on moving to 6th gen system. To begin induction by 2050.

The recent Pakistani members is very strange. It seems that they always want China to join Türkiye-Pakistan military project.

What is the significance of doing this?

China has independently developed the J-20 and J-35. The technology of the 5th generation fighter jet has become very mature in China. Why did China join the Türkiye Pakistan military project?

Don't you think doing this is inexplicable? Can you explain your logic?

China does not lack money. not lack of technology. not lack of experience. China has a complete industrial chain. China can independently produce all weapons.

What is the appropriate reason for China to join Türkiye Pakistan military project?

 

[Falcon26]

In the future, the TFX will replace the F-16s and J-35 will replace the JF-17 in the PAF. For the first time, PAF will not lack any advanced fighter jets as both its most reliable suppliers have developed or are developing 5th generation fighters.

In that regard, all 3 services have reliable high-end options outside the West.

 

[Tank131]

The recent Pakistani members is very strange. It seems that they always want China to join Türkiye-Pakistan military project.

What is the significance of doing this?

China has independently developed the J-20 and J-35. The technology of the 5th generation fighter jet has become very mature in China. Why did China join the Türkiye Pakistan military project?

Don't you think doing this is inexplicable? Can you explain your logic?

China does not lack money. not lack of technology. not lack of experience. China has a complete industrial chain. China can independently produce all weapons.

What is the appropriate reason for China to join Türkiye Pakistan military project?

I am not suggesting China would join this project. Im suggesting that should a turkish Turbofan not materialize in a timely fashion then Pakistan will need some ITAR free powerplant. The options would be European (British or French) which is highly unlikely, Russian which is theoretically possible but has too many political pitfalls, and most logically a Chinese solution. In this i mean that Pakistan would buy chinese powerplants from China to install into its own KAAN fighters (in place of the F110 currently used as tge stop gap for the Turkish variants). It would logically take some engineering adjustments but if the design is modular, then i see no reason Pakistan couldn't buy Chinese engines. This is not the same as China joining the KAAN project.

It is rather, akin to China buying Russian engines for J-10 before WS-10 was ready. Or putting Rd-93 into JF-17. That doesnt make Russia part of the JF-17 or J-10 projects just a vendor.

 

[Cookie Monster]

In the future, the TFX will replace the F-16s and J-35 will replace the JF-17 in the PAF. For the first time, PAF will not lack any advanced fighter jets as both its most reliable suppliers have developed or are developing 5th generation fighters.

In that regard, all 3 services have reliable high-end options outside the West.

Even before options for purchasing decent military gear(matching or surpassing what India had in its arsenal) would have become available if Pakistan had focused on its economy and was financially strong.

For an example...if US is not going to let Pakistan buy F22 or F35...for whatever reason...a financially strong Pakistan could've bought more block 52s...or later block 70s...or even go the UAE route and have its own variant developed...etc. Money can open many shut doors.

With constant neglect of developing a strong economy...even these advanced military gear options from China and Turkey wouldn't make much difference if the orders are placed in limited numbers...or some tech transfer and domestic input doesn't happen because of meager quantity ordered(due to financial limitations).

Any country's military might is built upon a strong economy...without it...a strong military becomes unsustainable. With that view in mind...and seeing the stooges leading Pakistan while India is making economic strides and buys weapons from east and west while simultaneously developing its domestic defense industry and enticing other countries in ToT, workshare, and JVs dangling money in front of them...
...in the next few decades...it will catapult India into a spot where it would be hard for Pakistan to keep up(even with China and Turkey's help).

 

[hari sud]

Hastily done deals often end up in pain. The Pakistanis are trying to copy India in 5th generation development in which France will help build the engine and India will build its own frame. India has more money than bankrupt Pakistan. Indian economy is $3.75 trillion and rising. Pakistani economy is under $400 billion and is not progressing, hence why compete.

 

[TheSolution]

Hastily done deals often end up in pain. The Pakistanis are trying to copy India in 5th generation development in which France will help build the engine and India will build its own frame. India has more money than bankrupt Pakistan. Indian economy is $3.75 trillion and rising. Pakistani economy is under $400 billion and is not progressing, hence why compete.

We are all saying the same thing.

A powerful military can only be sustained by a large, stable and growing economy. Pakistan does not have this. India has this with a nearly $4 trillion economy.

A couple decades and Pakistan won't be able to compete against India at all, India can attract ToT, JVs, investment for its domestic defence industry and be an attractive partner for foreign countries. Pakistan is barely scraping by currently, in the future it won't even be able to do that if the fundamental issues are not corrected right now.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am not suggesting China would join this project. Im suggesting that should a turkish Turbofan not materialize in a timely fashion then Pakistan will need some ITAR free powerplant. The options would be European (British or French) which is highly unlikely, Russian which is theoretically possible but has too many political pitfalls, and most logically a Chinese solution. In this i mean that Pakistan would buy chinese powerplants from China to install into its own KAAN fighters (in place of the F110 currently used as tge stop gap for the Turkish variants). It would logically take some engineering adjustments but if the design is modular, then i see no reason Pakistan couldn't buy Chinese engines. This is not the same as China joining the KAAN project.

It is rather, akin to China buying Russian engines for J-10 before WS-10 was ready. Or putting Rd-93 into JF-17. That doesnt make Russia part of the JF-17 or J-10 projects just a vendor.

IMO the PAF will wait for the TR Motor-equipped variant of the KAAN. In fact, the smart (but also risky) option would be to invest in the TR Motor turbofan engine so that we could co-produce it in Pakistan, develop deeper expertise of turbofan engines, etc.

If there's any delay or setback to the KAAN, then the PAF will simply order additional J-10CEs and JF-17 Block-3 (or Block-4) fighters to supplant older jets. The radar and avionics suite of both jets will continue evolving, and, as importantly, large air forces will continue flying 4+/4.5-gen fighters with so-called 5th-gen fighters (USAF, RAF, PLAAF, IAF, included).

If anything needs urgency at this point, it'd be indigenous UCAV development.

 

[dBSPL]

IMO the PAF will wait for the TR Motor-equipped variant of the KAAN. In fact, the smart (but also risky) option would be to invest in the TR Motor turbofan engine so that we could co-produce it in Pakistan, develop deeper expertise of turbofan engines, etc.

If there's any delay or setback to the KAAN, then the PAF will simply order additional J-10CEs and JF-17 Block-3 (or Block-4) fighters to supplant older jets. The radar and avionics suite of both jets will continue evolving, and, as importantly, large air forces will continue flying 4+/4.5-gen fighters with so-called 5th-gen fighters (USAF, RAF, PLAAF, IAF, included).

If anything needs urgency at this point, it'd be indigenous UCAV development.

Do you have any date prediction for Block-4? In recent days, high-level delegations from the TAF have been briefed on Block-3, as you know, or some possibilities(may be about Pakistan aircraft, Turkish avionics) are being evaluated regarding a third-party country that we do not know yet.