The Rafale vs F22 video that the web is abuzz on! From ATLC 2010.

[Jango]

Here is a high resolution version of the original video.
Vimeo Couch Mode

On the left most part of the HUD, what does Sim DGFT mean? Simulated dogfight?

Is it some sort of a fighting mode in the Rafale?

Secondly, the hard deck was violated by both the pilots in this fight right?

 

[dbc]

On the left most part of the HUD, what does Sim DGFT mean? Simulated dogfight?

Is it some sort of a fighting mode in the Rafale?

Secondly, the hard deck was violated by both the pilots in this fight right?

SIM is simulated, infrared missile and gun you are right DGFT is dog fight.

 

[dbc]

Secondly, the hard deck was violated by both the pilots in this fight right?

Yes it was.

 

[gambit]

What did i say Gambit?

Your criticism of the 'hard deck' rule is based upon outdated knowledge of air combat. In a real war, if a pilot feels he can win by taking the fight to below a certain altitude, the risk of running to the ground is his to make but not necessarily equal the burden on his opponent. That is what I meant when I said 'no rules' because his opponent could just simply refuse to descend.

But even in a real war, like the recent Desert Storm where complex air tasking orders were the norm, the hard deck rule was very real and enforceable by commanders. Air superiority fighters like the F-15 would be at the highest altitudes, providing that "God's Eye" view of the air theater. Strike fighters would be at the medium altitudes to have better precision strikes and some protection from air defense gunnery, but not necessarily from SAMs. Low altitudes would be assigned to Army aviation or special operations, if any.

Each altitude ranges (plural) is called a 'block'...

ANNEX B TO CHAPTER 3 Air Operations Center (AOC) Standard Operating Procedure (SOP)

Air Operations Center (AOC) Standard Operating Procedure (SOP)
Twelfth Air Force (12AF) Air Force Forces (AFFOR)

2. The "Airborne Alert Worksheet" has an "Available Locations" window for defining the location of the alert orbit. Note that each location has a valid time and altitude block.

Joint Airspace Management and Deconfliction: A Chance to Trade in a Stovepipe for Network-Centric Warfare

What Joint Airspace Management and Deconfliction Will Do

The TBMCS operator will be able to select and sort variables within the airspace based on criteria such as mission packages, launch times, time on target, target areas, altitude blocks, and air-refueling tracks, among others.

...Even civil aviation uses that term...

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0405.html

g. Altitude assignments involving more than one altitude.

PHRASEOLOGY-
MAINTAIN BLOCK (altitude) THROUGH (altitude).

Substitute 'altitude' for numbers. Each number is a hard deck. A Combat Controller friend of mine way back in the days explained that if the decks were not enforceable by commanders, his job would be a lot harder because he would have to keep track of who is capable of doing what and where did the guy go. The phrase is 'altitude deconfliction' and when enforced by the hard deck rule, it helps maintain order and reduces confusion, especially the kind that lead to fratricide.

 

[sancho]

Pretty sure the Eurofighter guys may someday release a statement stating otherwise.
Only the people who hold these exercises.. the controllers know the real score.. the rest is a bit of pilot bragging and arrogance in play.

Actually it is the otherway around, the EF met the Rafale quiet often in exercises, just like they met US fighters. Strangely, they didn't commented ONLY about the engagements against the Rafale, which is odd, since they even posted articles on the official EF website and magazins about EFs fooling around with US F15s in UK and SPAIN, or after the F22 dogfights. So their silence about the Rafale tells us actually more than if they come up with any excuses. However, the Corsica results might also had some relations to the RoEs, where the altitude and speed requirements might have benefitted Rafale more than the EF. At high altitude and higher speeds, the EF might have more advantages, but that's only a matter for the pilots or fanboys.
The fact is, that the 2009 exercises proved Rafale to be one of the most maneuverable western fighter and that not only against the Teen series which were inferior in most exercises anyway, but against the 2 top rated air superiority fighters. That changed the view on Rafale completely, which was considered only as a fighter bomber, more comparable to the F18SH.
All I am interested now, would be any infos of an Indian MKI pilot, that has faced the Rafale in the Garuda exercises, or a pilot that did the MMRCA trials. They should have the best unbiased view on Rafale and other western fighters in comparison, but Indian pilots sadly don't give much infos out about these exercises.

Secondly, the hard deck was violated by both the pilots in this fight right?

Exactly, infact you can see the Rafale following the F22 down, which already is below that line, but it's always funny to hear the reasons and excuses. The fact however is, that the F22 was only able to kill the Rafale a single time, that and the recent EF combats showed the superiority of the delta canard design, but at the end it doesn't mean anything if they have no advantage in BVR range.
That however changes if you have a stealth fighter that also is highly maneuverable and there are a lot of NG fighter developments on the list currently, which looks very interesting and troubling for the US.

 

[Audio]

Actually it is the otherway around, the EF met the Rafale quiet often in exercises, just like they met US fighters. Strangely, they didn't commented ONLY about the engagements against the Rafale, which is odd, since they even posted articles on the official EF website and magazins about EFs fooling around with US F15s in UK and SPAIN, or after the F22 dogfights. So their silence about the Rafale tells us actually more than if they come up with any excuses.

Italian pilot on EF was reportedly joking about Rafale....

The two aircraft have met several times
during Dissimilar Air Combat Training and
in almost all the encounters, Typhoon
emerged with significantly better performances. As stated to Eurofighter World by
an Italian Air Force pilot who recently had a
chance to enterinto ‘combat’ against Rafale
overthe Tyrrenian sea:“"It was an interesting duel. They are still trying to find where
we were as we were flying and shooting at
them well above the maximum flying envelope allowed to the Rafale”!

page 4 http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/efworld012012.pdf

now, ofcourse it is a company publication and they would be the last to bash their own product, i just wanted to share so you do not get too carried away with conjecture about not mentioning the Rafale.

 

[SQ8]

Actually it is the otherway around, the EF met the Rafale quiet often in exercises, just like they met US fighters. Strangely, they didn't commented ONLY about the engagements against the Rafale, which is odd, since they even posted articles on the official EF website and magazins about EFs fooling around with US F15s in UK and SPAIN, or after the F22 dogfights. So their silence about the Rafale tells us actually more than if they come up with any excuses. n comparison, but Indian pilots sadly don't give much infos out about these exercises.



Exactly, infact you can see the Rafale following the F22 down, which already is below that line, but it's always funny to hear the reasons and excuses. The fact however is, that the F22 was only able to kill the Rafale a single time, that and the recent EF combats showed the superiority of the delta canard design, but at the end it doesn't mean anything if they have no advantage in BVR range.
That however changes if you have a stealth fighter that also is highly maneuverable and there are a lot of NG fighter developments on the list currently, which looks very interesting and troubling for the US.

1. Not necessarily. Keeping quiet about the results is no admission.. perhaps with the EF sales in progress or otherwise they have decided not to indulge in petty cheers. That a very fanboyish view from you. To get an accurate idea it would be better to get pilots who have evaluated both aircraft.

2. Same again, If you observe the video.. it will show that the F-22 was NOT on its way down(the Rafale was pointing nose down and the 22's flight path is perpendicular to it).. Once the hard deck was terminated by the Rafale we see the F-22 there was well.
So neither seems to have stuck the rule or otherwise..

That being said, it would be foolish to compare the EF to the Rafale since there exists testimonials on the Rafale by EF pilots in AFM..who state it as a fighter capable of pointing its nose in any direction and any speed. That should be testament enough on its capabilities.

 

[Cat12345]

Awesome video

 

[sancho]

1. Not necessarily. Keeping quiet about the results is no admission..

But "choosing" about which results you report and which you better remain quiet is, because it's not like the EF officials or pilots wouldn't talk about the excercises in general (@Audio, yes but only a comment, not a report about the exercise like they did in the other cases).

2. Same again, If you observe the video.. it will show that the F-22 was NOT on its way down(the Rafale was pointing nose down and the 22's flight path is perpendicular to it)

Yes in min 1:55, but the F22 is already far lower and pulls upwards two seconds later, the Rafale follows but both remain below and same happens later too, so how is Rafale the only one that was below?

That being said, it would be foolish to compare the EF to the Rafale since there exists testimonials on the Rafale by EF pilots in AFM..who state it as a fighter capable of pointing its nose in any direction and any speed. That should be testament enough on its capabilities.

There are similar comments about it, even of the F22 pilots, but pilots remain biased towards their own fighters, that's why it would be interesting to hear comments, or a comparison of an unbiased pilot, that had engaged both in exercises.

 

[SQ8]

But "choosing" about which results you report and which you better remain quiet is, because it's not like the EF officials or pilots wouldn't talk about the excercises in general (@Audio, yes but only a comment, not a report about the exercise like they did in the other cases).



Yes in min 1:55, but the F22 is already far lower and pulls upwards two seconds later, the Rafale follows but both remain below and same happens later too, so how is Rafale the only one that was below?



There are similar comments about it, even of the F22 pilots, but pilots remain biased towards their own fighters, that's why it would be interesting to hear comments, or a comparison of an unbiased pilot, that had engaged both in exercises.

That's the thing with exercises.. You report depending on mutual agreement.. in Cope India the results were not to be disclosed except on mutual agreement, the same was for red flag.. except the results were not disclosed mutually..that did not happen ,did it..?

Until you can get a fighter pilot who was in the exersize(the PAF pilots from the F-7PG sq would be a start as they were in the exersize) you cannot overly rate any fighter based on purely marketing motivated statements.

As for the engagement.. You see the F-22 in the hud at 13000 ft.. and by the distance it cannot be more than 500ft away and is perpendicular...It not on its way down.. you dont see it again until the Rafale has already broken the hard deck.. So either both aircraft terminated the engagement.. or in this case.. its one of those videos that the kill did not count. ..If then, why bring the video up of an engagement where rules were violated to prove their point?
Marketing... plain and simple... and for that one can twist any result to give the right impression.

 

[halloweene]

IAs said before, i know the guy who released the video (not me) the video has leaked for years now, it is in no way coming from Dassault and/or AdlA on purpose.
Fox2 was not to be accounted because both Sqds decided so.
Solenzara 8:1 result is very well known (aswell as the conditions) :

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica .
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.

Air&Cosmos, June 2010.

Btw Maj Gruene has beaten twice Rafale in dogfight.

No big deal in all that.

If France thought RBE2 PESA was The best radar in the world, they wouldnt upgrade it, neither buy new AESAs. French pilots agree that CaptorM is more powerful then RBE2PESA. If you talk with pilots, you will always get unofficialresults favouring their plane. For the sake of thread i wont post what i heard about joint warrior exercise (i am not jon lake). (Neither will i post recent F16 hud kill during tigermeet).

 

[DrSomnath999]

Thank you for posting that interview. It confirms what I have been saying all along. This engagement between the F-22 and Rafale is a 'no result'.

Here is a high resolution version of the original video.
Vimeo Couch Mode

Of course BFM is more of a test of fighter pilots skills than capabilty of planes,

At the end of the day in BFM , the pilot wins not the planes

cheers

 

[SpArK]

Dassault Rafale lock on to beloved american F-22

The French Air Force leaked online a video of sparring between its most advanced fighter, the Rafale and the U.S. F-22 Raptor, in which the F-22 is defeated four times in front of a French airplane

Recently leaked on the Internet a cool video that captures a training duel between advanced fourth-generation fighter French Rafale and the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-22 Raptor, the hunting world's most expensive. And oddly enough, in this sparring American fighter pilot (considered the best air superiority fighter in the world) is losing in four of the five meetings held.

The training bouts were held in 2009 in the UAE sky, within the program of pilot training aircraft of NATO and partner countries Block ATLS (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course.)

And it is no coincidence the uproar that armed this leak. The F-22 is still considered an unbeatable fighter game for any previous generation.

That is why until recently the U.S. Air Force was silent the results of these duels to discuss other sparring conducted in the sky of the United Arab Emirates. And only by publication appeared unconvincing video excuses ensuring that the 'invincible' F-22 had external fuel tanks (not visible in the video), worsening its maneuverability and radar made ​​it visible to French.

But do not underestimate the F-22 . Yes, the Raptor was portrayed in these tests, but the loss came in a real 'dog fight', a close combat, for which it was conceived this expensive plane. U.S.

Air Force prefers the Raptor in missions of long range combat, using their low visibility to enemy radar and using data from reconnaissance aircraft (E-3 Sentry and Boeing 737 AEW & C), whose mission is to detect enemy aircraft from afar. A medium and long distances the F- 22 is a very serious opponent. Its very low radar visibility in certain waves and in the infrared part of the optical spectrum allows you to launch their attacks without being detected by enemies devices.

All this and other benefits more (sophisticated communication systems, long-range missiles, powerful AESA radar, etc..) Convi what a piece erten systems over U.S. air attack And as such, it has a fairly limited but effective in performance. Without the support of these means of recognition (some aircraft by the way, easily detected by radar and therefore very vulnerable) the Raptor loses much of its advantages.


Texto completo en: Video: Duelo aéreo del infalible F-22 Raptor, derrotado por el Rafale

 

[RescueRanger]

I don't know anything about fighter aircraft or piloting for that matter. But that video was really entertaining to watch. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Kompromat]

@gambit Please "Repeat" the lessons....again...