The origins of tribes across Pakistan and Hindustan

[Brahmarshi]

Marathis Kashtriyas are short and more dravidian looking then even christians. I don't see any baloch connection.

Marathas are not kshatriyas.

Your last line is the important one.

If this is happening in Pakistan, be careful, be very careful. It is obvious that this is how the caste system originated (in part; the other part was the social engineering carried out to debase the original inhabitants: personal opinion).



Kamboj are a VERY ancient tribe, mentioned in the Puranas. The Parama Kamboj may have actually been speakers of Indo-Aryan north of the Hindu Kush. It's an amazing survival into the modern age from the proto-historic. Others mentioned along with them are the Bactrians, the Uttara Madra (the Madra, probably a cognate tribe, were further south, this side of the Hindu Kush) and the Uttara Kuru (everyone knows who the Kuru are; the Rajputs even claim descent from them, with doubtful authenticity).

Someone asked me (I think on this thread, but not sure) if any of the ancient Kshatriyas survived. If Kamboj lived on the Indian side of the Radcliffe Line (I don't think there are any at all), I would have pointed at them.

The Kamboja and some other allies of theirs from the extreme north fought ferociously during the battle and acquired a fearful reputation.

there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.

I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.

According to one of my village elder (RIP)
Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars can be considered three sons of the same father. The ones that left military for agriculture and herding for a living were called Jatts and Gujjars respectively. So, probably as royal families expanded, every one couldn't be adjusted around.

i respectfully disagree. royals and nobles make only tiny percentage of while population. fore example Brahmins are 2.5% of whole India and if we only count north Indian Brahmins they % surely drops to 1.5%.

even if we count Real Rajputs, in Rajasthan Rajputs are only 10% of total population than how can we accept that whole region or at least 60
% to 80% of it is populated by royal/noble clans ?

 

[Kabira]

Marathas are not kshatriyas.

Yes they are kiddo.

 

[Kambojaric]

Amazing!

Imagine how they kept their identity intact through possibly 3,500 years! I'm gobsmacked!!

@Kambojaric

Sir, are you from the group called Kamboh? I seem to remember that you had commented about this ethnicity sometime during the last one month or so?

I am a Kamboh indeed. Our non-Muslim kin use the term Kamboj. How we have kept our identity intact, I have no idea to be honest. I have studied in a basic sense the Kamboja/Parama Kamboja history, and yet subsequent to the move down to Central/Eastern Punjab we seem to disappear from the history books, until we reemerge as Kamboj/Kamboh during the medieval period. There is talk of one "Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh" who was a wazir and general in the army of Mahmud Ghaznavi, but this may very well be a fictionalised character created by the Kamboh Nawab family of Meerut to amplify their noble lineage, as was often the case during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Khair_Andesh_Khan is one famous individual of this line).
The peak of Muslim Kambohs at least came during Mughal rule, when the tribe seems to have been elevated to nobility status, which is a rarity amongst Punjabi tribes. Abū al-Faz̤l in the Ain-e-Akbari writes that

"during the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir, it was certainly a distinction to belong to this tribe (Kamboh), as will be seen just now ... (goes on to explain the various notable Kamboh figures during this period)"
page 399, Ain-e-Akbari (translated by H.Blochman).

These notable figures include Shahbaz Khan Kamboh and Sheikh Gadai Kamboh. However during the Sultunate period, Kambohs had become prominent already. Sheikh Jamali Kamboh and Sama'uddin Kamboh (of Multan) come to mind now.

In the modern era one famous Muslim Kamboh is Nawab Waqar ul Mulk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Waqar-ul-Mulk_Kamboh) who was a founding father of the Muslim League, and a famous Sikh Kamboj is Udham Singh, the assassin of Michael O'Dwyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh)

 

[Brahmarshi]

Yes they are kiddo.

They are not cutie.

 

[Kabira]

What's different between those two terms ?

I am not racist doc, i just want to preserve what my ancestors gave me and told me to preserve it with any cost.

I love and respect everyone Equally but i Just my Children and my people to look like me.

You know what happened to Indo-Iranics of Central Asia when Mongols AND turks conquered it doc.

I love the way you trigger your long lost Maratha brother. dont worrt, one day he will remember his roots as we say in Hindi.

सुबह का भूला शाम को ज़रूर लौट आता हैं ।
1 lyk = 1 Respect

Regards

I want to preserve my brahmin aryan race lol

 

[Joe Shearer]

Marathas are not kshatriyas.

there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.

I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.

I feel like an idiot.

i respectfully disagree. royals and nobles make only tiny percentage of while population. fore example Brahmins are 2.5% of whole India and if we only count north Indian Brahmins they % surely drops to 1.5%.

even if we count Real Rajputs, in Rajasthan Rajputs are only 10% of total population than how can we accept that whole region or at least 60
% to 80% of it is populated by royal/noble clans ?

Except for Jammu, over most of India, the percentage of Brahmins is about 2%. In Jammu, it is about 10%, the highest anywhere in India.

In the South, it is even lower than 2%.

I am a Kamboh indeed. Our non-Muslim kin use the term Kamboj. How we have kept our identity intact, I have no idea to be honest. I have studied in a basic sense the Kamboja/Parama Kamboja history, and yet subsequent to the move down to Central/Eastern Punjab we seem to disappear from the history books, until we reemerge as Kamboj/Kamboh during the medieval period. There is talk of one "Hasan Mahmudi Kamboh" who was a wazir and general in the army of Mahmud Ghaznavi, but this may very well be a fictionalised character created by the Kamboh Nawab family of Meerut to amplify their noble lineage, as was often the case during this era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Khair_Andesh_Khan is one famous individual of this line).
The peak of Muslim Kambohs at least came during Mughal rule, when the tribe seems to have been elevated to nobility status, which is a rarity amongst Punjabi tribes. Abū al-Faz̤l in the Ain-e-Akbari writes that

"during the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir, it was certainly a distinction to belong to this tribe (Kamboh), as will be seen just now ... (goes on to explain the various notable Kamboh figures during this period)"
page 399, Ain-e-Akbari (translated by H.Blochman).

These notable figures include Shahbaz Khan Kamboh and Sheikh Gadai Kamboh. However during the Sultunate period, Kambohs had become prominent already. Sheikh Jamali Kamboh and Sama'uddin Kamboh (of Multan) come to mind now.

In the modern era one famous Muslim Kamboh is Nawab Waqar ul Mulk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_Waqar-ul-Mulk_Kamboh) who was a founding father of the Muslim League, and a famous Sikh Kamboj is Udham Singh, the assassin of Michael O'Dwyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh)

Many, many thanks.

A unique tribe (yes, I noted that disappearance and re-appearance, and suspect that a stronger familiarity with Sanskrit might throw further light on the matter).

 

[Brahmarshi]

I want to preserve my brahmin aryan race lol

Meh, try hard next time.

Btw people in second pic are not even Brahmins.

 

[Kambojaric]

I feel like an idiot.

View attachment 435531View attachment 435531 View attachment 435531 View attachment 435531





Except for Jammu, over most of India, the percentage of Brahmins is about 2%. In Jammu, it is about 10%, the highest anywhere in India.

In the South, it is even lower than 2%.



Many, many thanks.

A unique tribe (yes, I noted that disappearance and re-appearance, and suspect that a stronger familiarity with Sanskrit might throw further light on the matter).

No problem Joe. My theory on the disappearance is that following the collapse of the Mauryas the wider Indus region underwent centuries of turmoil i.e. the Scythian, Parthian, Hunnic invasions and written scriptures will as a consequence become more scarce? As far as I know we rely more on archaeology than on studying historical documents, in order to understand this time period.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No problem Joe. My theory on the disappearance is that following the collapse of the Mauryas the wider Indus region underwent centuries of turmoil i.e. the Scythian, Parthian, Hunnic invasions and written scriptures will as a consequence become more scarce? As far as I know we rely more on archaeology than on studying historical documents, in order to understand this time period.

Epigraphy.

Most of our knowledge of these ill-documented times is from epigraphy.

You are absolutely right in your arguments. Did you read history in college?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.

Where did you get the source for their population.

Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts

@Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I just got a very annoyed personal mail, saying that there were indeed Kambojas in India, and that their Pakistani counterparts call themselves Kamboh.

@qamar1990

Is this correct? Is the name Kamboh?

Kambojas were an Iranic people that settled in Arachosia, a loosely defined region that most likely extended from Arghandabad river in Afghanistan to the Indus river in Pakistan. There were many tribes of the Kambojas that were recorded and detailed by the Greeks.

They began to trickle into Punjab, but we do not know exactly when. My personal theory is that it had to do with Alexander's invasion.

The Kambojas fiercely resisted Alexander in modern-day KPK and at many times fought to the last man and woman (who fought as well). After severe losses, many Kambojas destroyed their own cities and fled (most likely into Punjab); possibly as a scorched-earth tactic.

Some clans migrated as deep into Bengal, Nepal and Tibet and because of their military prowess, dominated the locals, setting up powerful dynasties, the most famous of which is the Kamboja-Pala dynasty of Bengal.

It is recorded in Mauryan edicts that the Kambojas enjoyed autonomy and that Ashoka had sent missionaries to convert them to Buddhism, a religion that most likely became dominant among the Kambojas before the arrival of Islam.

"Indian Kambojas" mostly 'dispute' links with the ancient Kambojas and claim themselves to be Rajputs instead. This can actually have great truth to it as the Kambojas rose to great prominence under the Mughals and many Rajputs and other tribes serving under Kamboh nobles most likely began to refer to themselves as Kambojas, similar to how some Rajput clans assimilated into the Gujjars during the Muslim invasions of Rajasthan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Where did you get the source for their population.

Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts

@Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.

I know very well that Kambojas are not Jats, but I was happy to learn that there are still Kambojas in India. Just think what a fantastic thing it is (subject to the qualifications of @Kambojaric, of course, about the gap in historical record between 400 BC or so and 1100 AD).

@Brahmarshi makes us all uncomfortable with his occasional faux pas, but I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, of presuming to know more than he actually does, rather than actually misleading people.

 

[Kambojaric]

Marathas are not kshatriyas.



there are 3,00,000+ Kambojas are in Indian punjab joe. while they are part of ethnic group jatt they are notionally extremely fair with sharp Caucasoid facial features.

I am divided on their classification in Varna as they are both Indic and Iranic at same time, I hve no doupt that majority of kambojas were kshatriyas in Vedic period as well. if Rajputs can be classified as Kshatriyas than i believe an ancient Iranic tribe like Kabojas should be classified as Kshatriyas as well.

I have never heard of Kamboh/Kamboj referring to themselves as Jatt. Occupational patterns can be noted. For example one side of my family are "Chaudhry" Kamboh owing to the fact that they used to own lands in Ferozpur prior to 47, whereas the other side are "Mian" Kamboh (city dwellers more inclined towards education).

You are right about the existence of both indic and iranic features however. For example I stumbled upon the Bhuridatta Jātaka (vol vi, 110) whilst doing research on the Kambojas in which it is stated

"Kita Patanga Uraga ca Bheka
Bantva Kimim Sujjhati Makkhika ca,
Ete hi dhamma anariyarupa
Kambojakanam vithatha bahunnan"

Those men are counted pure who only kill
Frogs, worms, bees, snakes or insects as they will
Those are your savage customs which I hate
Such as Kamboja hordes might emulate

Killing snakes, insects and other Xrafstar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xrafstar) is considered holy in the Zoroastrian faith, and the implication that Kamboja hordes engaged in this practise in a Buddhist text says something. However we also know that during other periods the Kambojas were integrated into the Hindu caste system as Kshatriyas. Generally speaking I simply see the Kambojas as an ancient elaboration of the Indus valley peoples in general. We share traits from both sides. We spoke a Prakrit but wrote it down in the Kharosthi script, had religious traits of Zoroastrianism but were also part of the wider caste system structure.

Epigraphy.

Most of our knowledge of these ill-documented times is from epigraphy.

You are absolutely right in your arguments. Did you read history in college?

Unfortunately not. Just an avid fan of historical studies

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Kambojas were an Iranic people that settled in Arachosia, a loosely defined region that most likely extended from Arghandabad river in Afghanistan to the Indus river in Pakistan. There were many tribes of the Kambojas that were recorded and detailed by the Greeks.

They began to trickle into Punjab, but we do not know exactly when. My personal theory is that it had to do with Alexander's invasion.

The Kambojas fiercely resisted Alexander in modern-day KPK and at many times fought to the last man and woman (who fought as well). After severe losses, many Kambojas destroyed their own cities and fled (most likely into Punjab); possibly as a scorched-earth tactic.

Some clans migrated as deep into Bengal, Nepal and Tibet and because of their military prowess, dominated the locals, setting up powerful dynasties, the most famous of which is the Kamboja-Pala dynasty of Bengal.

It is recorded in Mauryan edicts that the Kambojas enjoyed autonomy and that Ashoka had sent missionaries to convert them to Buddhism, a religion that most likely became dominant among the Kambojas before the arrival of Islam.

"Indian Kambojas" mostly 'dispute' links with the ancient Kambojas and claim themselves to be Rajputs instead. This can actually have great truth to it as the Kambojas rose to great prominence under the Mughals and many Rajputs and other tribes serving under Kamboh nobles most likely began to refer to themselves as Kambojas, similar to how Rajput clans assimilated into the Gujjars.

I also read somewhere a very detailed report of how the Kambojas came into conflict with other tribes over the salt plains of Punjab and how they also colonised many areas in Sindh during the pre-Mughal era, but I cannot seem to find it anymore. Will post it once I find it.

 

[django]

Where did you get the source for their population.

Also, Kambojas are not a part of the Jatts

@Joe Shearer This guy hardly knows what he is talking about, I recommend you regard his information with caution.

He (Brahamarshi) is a man from the Ghandara though not a ounce of evidence to support his obsession lol.Kudos