The F-35 slaughtered the competition in its latest test

[Khafee]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. This simulation or excercize is as close to reality that it can get.

In true combat----the kill ratio will be much higher in favor of the F-35.

I will ask the posters to do some mental excercize and come up with the reasons---if not---then I will divulge.

I have not seen the video, but the last simulations had an issue. The F22 was in the picture, but the results were not clear, they made it ambiguous.

 

[Rain]

it was bound to happen!
Once the teething problem are resolved 4th gen fighter would be no competition for F35 in BVR combat.

I think this exercise was WVR not BVR. Am I right?

 

[Mustang06]

I think this exercise was WVR not BVR. Am I right?

I guess in red flag they simulate everything. This is what I found. Maybe someone else can tell!
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...-most-probably-thanks-to-the-supporting-f-22/

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The reason I say that it is going to be worst is---because for smaller air forces---they will lose their top pilots in the initial clashes---.

And they will also lose their other complimentary assets as well.

What surprises me---that most of you kids have no comprehension what happens in combat----.

Most of you kids think that from the begining to the end---the smaller enemy will still be working with the same force and same pilot capability---.

 

[gambit]

These are just numbers in reality it will impossible to achieve this Kill ratio

I have been to two Red Flags.

At Red Flag, missiles are given the benefit of the doubt, meaning that if you achieved radar lock, you have a 'kill'. In the real world, the probability of kill (pk) comes into play and your odds of success -- a real missile hit -- dramatically decreases.

This does not mean you can take these Red Flag simulated kills as nothing more than statistical gimmickry. Precisely because we understood this, aircrews goes to great lengths to place themselves as as advantageous positions as possible so that when the ACMI pod data are analyzed, everyone will come to the conclusion that even under real world conditions, that would be a real missile kill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_combat_maneuvering_instrumentation

There are newer hardware and software today, but the entire system is still often calls ACMI, as how it was originally designed to be.

So under real world conditions, we would place ourselves in as advantageous positions as possible to replicate those simulated successes.

This is why foreign pilots always came away from Red Flag stunned. The emphasis is NOT one-to-one combat. Red Flag is not about individual heroics like how the movie Top Gun portrayed pilots. Red Flag is %90 teamwork. Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) and Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM) are not discarded, the Aggressors are at Nellis for that, but the philosophy of Red Flag is that the individual dogfight should be the fight of last resort. Red Flag is about air combat tactics, as in how to position your entire flight, not just you, in such a position that the enemy fighters either die or fail in their original mission at minimum cost to you.

Red Flag is about how US airpower have been steadily moving away from the Hollywood glamour portrayal of the fighter pilot. In an odd way, Red Flag views the individual dogfight as a failure, in other words, dogfighting is time consuming, fuel draining, and that YOU can be better used elsewhere in the war.

If what they found for the F-35 at Red Flag to be this overwhelming, I feel sorry for the next air force that will face the F-22 and F-35.

 

[gambit]

...in the term of aerodynamics and agility, maneuverability Russia and China is way way head

As you wish...

https://defence.pk/threads/f-35-red-flag-results-update.478446/#post-9216807

The Russians and the Chinese can die 'way way ahead' too.

 

[MarcsPakistan]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. This simulation or excercize is as close to reality that it can get.

In true combat----the kill ratio will be much higher in favor of the F-35.

I will ask the posters to do some mental excercize and come up with the reasons---if not---then I will divulge.

Thanks

 

[The Accountant]

Actually, Red Flag is more sophicated than you thought, and the test scenario, usually played agaisnt the USAF aircraft, were deployed to the nearest reality as they can get, the only thing they don't do is to pull the trigger.

And no, it not always plane vs plane, red flag is a full spectrum exercise, you have all 4 branches (Coast Guard is not invited) of US Armed Force attending these exercise every year, and it simulate every type of situation ranging from Air/Ground, Air/Air and Air/Sea.

I have been to two Red Flags.

At Red Flag, missiles are given the benefit of the doubt, meaning that if you achieved radar lock, you have a 'kill'. In the real world, the probability of kill (pk) comes into play and your odds of success -- a real missile hit -- dramatically decreases.

This does not mean you can take these Red Flag simulated kills as nothing more than statistical gimmickry. Precisely because we understood this, aircrews goes to great lengths to place themselves as as advantageous positions as possible so that when the ACMI pod data are analyzed, everyone will come to the conclusion that even under real world conditions, that would be a real missile kill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_combat_maneuvering_instrumentation

There are newer hardware and software today, but the entire system is still often calls ACMI, as how it was originally designed to be.

So under real world conditions, we would place ourselves in as advantageous positions as possible to replicate those simulated successes.

This is why foreign pilots always came away from Red Flag stunned. The emphasis is NOT one-to-one combat. Red Flag is not about individual heroics like how the movie Top Gun portrayed pilots. Red Flag is %90 teamwork. Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) and Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM) are not discarded, the Aggressors are at Nellis for that, but the philosophy of Red Flag is that the individual dogfight should be the fight of last resort. Red Flag is about air combat tactics, as in how to position your entire flight, not just you, in such a position that the enemy fighters either die or fail in their original mission at minimum cost to you.

Red Flag is about how US airpower have been steadily moving away from the Hollywood glamour portrayal of the fighter pilot. In an odd way, Red Flag views the individual dogfight as a failure, in other words, dogfighting is time consuming, fuel draining, and that YOU can be better used elsewhere in the war.

If what they found for the F-35 at Red Flag to be this overwhelming, I feel sorry for the next air force that will face the F-22 and F-35.

Thanks for sharing your experience ... my knowledge was limited on the subject ... but still i think that against powerful enemies achieving anything even close to this is near impossible ...

 

[Khafee]

But in a real world scenario there are layer of defences do they create the same ? I doubt that ... lets consider a real world battle field in an agressive role f35 have to take care of all the threats which include radars awacs sams and patrolling aircrafts ... lets suppose f35 came close to destroy first layer of defense than they will have to open their sensors and have to compromise on stealth ... furthermore current anti stealth radar cannot target the aircraftand but still they knows the general location of the aircraft so patrol aircraft ca be sent towards the area ... on the top of that we have 5th generation missile with lock after launch with two way link available ... i dont think so that in exercise all these scenarios can be covered ...

Please note:

1) Every exercise has some limitations.
2) Sometimes you have to lose, in order to win.
3) Exercises are not only performed to refine tactics, but to learn from your opponent / ally.

 

[jhungary]

Thanks for sharing your experience ... my knowledge was limited on the subject ... but still i think that against powerful enemies achieving anything even close to this is near impossible ...

In the Army, we have a saying ;

"You sweat in the mud so you don't bleed in the fuxk" Basically, mud is your drill, exercise and training, and "fuxk" is when shit hits the fan......

From my experience, training is harder than the real thing, and sometime even realer than the real thing, that's because you will have to prepare for everything that's possible, but in war, whatever hits you, hits you. I remember for a few time I was thinking there were no way in reality, enemy can surround us with a 360 ambush and roll in with tanks and supported with gunship and wave after wave of infantry. But that is the situation we have and the drill we are doing.

In reality, that may happens, but what you are expecting, and what you are doing would be two different league, we have soldiers served in Vietnam War and talk about ambushes, boobytrap and their experience which we are probably never going to need, but still, these kind of lecture and training is still given.

The only thing different between training and reality is your mentality, and the fact is that your enemy is shooting at you for real. You can train a thousand hours, and expanded hundred of thousands of rounds, and you will never get that close to the feeling of someone is shooting at you and trying to kill you, how do you fight when adrenaline is pumping thru your vein, that's is the only different, scenario wise, they are very close to reality, if not even closer than the reality.

 

[Oldman1]

I think this exercise was WVR not BVR. Am I right?

145 to 7 kill ratio and 7 of those kills on the F-35 were in visual range.

 

[LeGenD]

In the term of Electronics and sensor fusion Yes USA but in the term of aerodynamics and agility, maneuverability Russia and China is way way head

Based on?

FYI:

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-vs-j-20-j-31-pak-fa-t-50-russia-china-fifth-generation-2017-2

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-americas-enemies-still-fear-the-f-15-eagle-16897

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html

And do ask a seasoned PAF pilot about the capabilities of F-16 Block 52.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Based on?

FYI:

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-vs-j-20-j-31-pak-fa-t-50-russia-china-fifth-generation-2017-2

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-americas-enemies-still-fear-the-f-15-eagle-16897

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/the-combat-statistics-for-all-the-aircraft-currently-in-use.html

And do ask a seasoned PAF pilot about the capabilities of F-16 Block 52.

For extremely weak and defenseless air-forces, put USAF against RUAF and PLAAF then the result will be different

 

[gambit]

For extremely weak and defenseless air-forces, put USAF against RUAF and PLAAF then the result will be different

Definitely different. Instead of defeating them in 3 days, it will take 4.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Definitely different. Instead of defeating them in 3 days, it will take 4.

No chance against well equipped, well trained well equipped and sophisticated IADS equipped armed forces