The F-35 slaughtered the competition in its latest test

[MultaniGuy]

No chance we will get F-35 in near future or distant future US tilting in the favor of India ask the senior members on PDF like @Oscar, @Bilal Khan (Quwa), @Bilal Khan 777, @Khafee, @waz, @Horus
all is saying that we can't get F-35


No he is right, you lives in fairy-tales and fantasy world, get real bro

I hope Russia tilts towards Pakistan. We are in the same neighborhood.

 

[theman111]

I hope Russia tilts towards Pakistan. We are in the same neighborhood.

you cant also get russia t 50 cause india involve in the project you can get only j 31

 

[MultaniGuy]

USA are not going to sell it us, we don't have a good relationship with them anymore.

Excellent point.

Better to go with China and Russia.

USA is losing influence in the world.

you cant also get russia t 50 cause india involve in the project you can get only j 31

Agreed with you.
Pakistan needs to get J-31s.

 

[waz]

Half the rubbish posts on here are now about Pakistan and the F-35. Did you guys bother reading the thread title. Anymore off-topic posts will result in penalties.

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan will never get the F-35. Unless you want to live with all the strings attached.
Pakistan should obviously go for the J-31s.
We need to maintain our independence.

And J31 wouldn't have strings attached ...?

 

[MultaniGuy]

And J31 wouldn't have strings attached ...?

I suppose so. J-31s wouldnt have any strings attached like JF-17.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I suppose so. J-31s wouldnt have any strings attached like JF-17.

What string on JF-17 bro?

 

[Penguin]

I suppose so. J-31s wouldnt have any strings attached like JF-17.

But JF-17 development (jointly) was quite different from that of J31. Its official name is Shenyang FC-31; J-xx nomenclatures in the Chinese military are reserved to programs launched and financed by themilitary , while this plane was developed by a private company.

 

[Oldman1]

I am still very skeptical of this whole stealth idea. They make sense for a strike mission, but i don't think it is feasible in an all out war. For example, I was reading on "Have Blue" Project, they said the bird was "lit like a Christmas tree" on radar screen just because a couple of panel screws were sticking out about 1/8"
People who have worked on or around airplanes know how lose all those fasteners become after a decade of service. Plus they have to re-apply the ferrite coating before each flight as mechanics would've had to open the panels to inspect the aircraft. This sounds not only costly, but extremely time consuming. Thus not really sustainable during an all out war.
I'm sure they developed new technologies since "have blue" project, but the other thing to keep in mind is radar technology also got better since then

You're skeptical? Yet China and Russia is following this stealth idea besides the U.S.

 

[gambit]

I am still very skeptical of this whole stealth idea.

That is fine. We want as many people as possible be skeptical of the idea of low radar observability.

For example, I was reading on "Have Blue" Project, they said the bird was "lit like a Christmas tree" on radar screen just because a couple of panel screws were sticking out about 1/8"
People who have worked on or around airplanes know how lose all those fasteners become after a decade of service.

Aaahhh...Wrong.

Each panel have torque ratings for its fasteners. For the maintenance folks, there are three levels of workers: 3, 5, and 7.

The 3-level worker is someone who is fresh out of tech school and needs constant supervision while on the job, whether the job is on the flightline or not. The 3-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off ANY discrepancy.

The 5-level worker is someone who has at least 1 yr experience in the career field and is approved to work unsupervised. The 5-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off a major discrepancy, only MINOR discrepancies that does not affect flight status.

The 7-level worker is someone who has more experience and is allowed to sign off ALL discrepancies associated to his specialty.

When a panel is opened, the aircraft is immediately rendered non-flyable and that panel must be documented in its record.

Now...Just in case anyone thinks I make this shit up...

http://www.tinker.af.mil/Portals/106/Documents/AFD-160427-007.pdf

An opened panel is a 'Red X' item and by extension EVERY FASTENER on that panel is also a 'Red X' item under the same entry.

Once a panel is closed and all fasteners secured. Only a 7-level worker -- usually also a supervisor -- is allowed to sign off that Red X entry. If that Red X entry is the only major discrepancy, the jet is cleared for flight status. But if there are multiple major discrepancies, ALL must be cleared by appropriate levels of workers before the jet is finally cleared for flight status. This also means an avionics 7-level cannot sign off an engine change. If necessary, an engine 7-level from another squadron will be called, or the squadron must call back on duty its own engine 7-level to sign off that engine change.

If a panel is allowed to fly with a couple of panel fasteners protrude by 1/8th of an inch, and that condition was discovered by post flight inspection, these are the actions that WILL happen...

1- The jet will be immediately grounded.

2- The jet's aircraft form will be confiscated, along with all maintenance records such as logs and parts ordered forms if any.

3- Anyone who worked on that particular jet will be immediately de-cert, pending investigation closure.

4- The 7-level who signed off that panel will be disciplined, up to complete decertification of his specialty, meaning he will be a 3-level worker again. His rank/grade will not be affected, but his service record will be noted which means he can pretty much wave goodbye any chance of promotion. Essentially, he put an aircrew at risk.

5- Any lower level of worker who had anything to do with that panel may also suffer the same fate as the 7-level.

6- The crew chief and assistant crew chief(s) assigned to that jet will be removed from the jet. Essentially, they will be manual laborers when anyone needed them. A 7-level crew chief is allowed to sign off that panel that was opened by an avionics specialist. The crew chief(s) are supposed to literally put hands on that panel to make sure all fasteners are flushed to surface. If 20 panels were opened, they are supposed to put hands on those 20 panels, make sure 20 Red X entries existed, and 20 signatures associated to sign-offs.

7- The end-of-runway (EOR) crew will be disciplined because they are the final checkpoint before the jet takes off. If necessary, the entire crew will be de-certed.

8- The maintenance officer will be investigated as to his capability to monitor his people and enforce compliance.

A panel may have an exception attached as to how many fasteners are allowed to be missing and that exception came from careful study as to security under flight stress. The missing fasteners cannot be in series and limited in how many are allowed to be absent. But if a fastener is installed, it must be flushed, not protruding.

For example...

So your statement that implied 'a couple of loose fasteners are fine' maybe acceptable in other air forces, but not ours. Not in peace time, anyway.

Plus they have to re-apply the ferrite coating before each flight as mechanics would've had to open the panels to inspect the aircraft. This sounds not only costly, but extremely time consuming. Thus not really sustainable during an all out war.

Other air forces maybe deterred. But not US. That is why other air forces fears US.

I'm sure they developed new technologies since "have blue" project, but the other thing to keep in mind is radar technology also got better since then

True, radar technologies have gotten better. But so do 'stealth' designs and how to use them in combat. We have radars and 'stealth' aircrafts to test them against each other. Others...???

 

[MultaniGuy]

But JF-17 development (jointly) was quite different from that of J31. Its official name is Shenyang FC-31; J-xx nomenclatures in the Chinese military are reserved to programs launched and financed by themilitary , while this plane was developed by a private company.

Good point.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That is fine. We want as many people as possible be skeptical of the idea of low radar observability.


Aaahhh...Wrong.

Each panel have torque ratings for its fasteners. For the maintenance folks, there are three levels of workers: 3, 5, and 7.

The 3-level worker is someone who is fresh out of tech school and needs constant supervision while on the job, whether the job is on the flightline or not. The 3-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off ANY discrepancy.

The 5-level worker is someone who has at least 1 yr experience in the career field and is approved to work unsupervised. The 5-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off a major discrepancy, only MINOR discrepancies that does not affect flight status.

The 7-level worker is someone who has more experience and is allowed to sign off ALL discrepancies associated to his specialty.

When a panel is opened, the aircraft is immediately rendered non-flyable and that panel must be documented in its record.

Now...Just in case anyone thinks I make this shit up...

http://www.tinker.af.mil/Portals/106/Documents/AFD-160427-007.pdf

An opened panel is a 'Red X' item and by extension EVERY FASTENER on that panel is also a 'Red X' item under the same entry.

Once a panel is closed and all fasteners secured. Only a 7-level worker -- usually also a supervisor -- is allowed to sign off that Red X entry. If that Red X entry is the only major discrepancy, the jet is cleared for flight status. But if there are multiple major discrepancies, ALL must be cleared by appropriate levels of workers before the jet is finally cleared for flight status. This also means an avionics 7-level cannot sign off an engine change. If necessary, an engine 7-level from another squadron will be called, or the squadron must call back on duty its own engine 7-level to sign off that engine change.

If a panel is allowed to fly with a couple of panel fasteners protrude by 1/8th of an inch, and that condition was discovered by post flight inspection, these are the actions that WILL happen...

1- The jet will be immediately grounded.

2- The jet's aircraft form will be confiscated, along with all maintenance records such as logs and parts ordered forms if any.

3- Anyone who worked on that particular jet will be immediately de-cert, pending investigation closure.

4- The 7-level who signed off that panel will be disciplined, up to complete decertification of his specialty, meaning he will be a 3-level worker again. His rank/grade will not be affected, but his service record will be noted which means he can pretty much wave goodbye any chance of promotion. Essentially, he put an aircrew at risk.

5- Any lower level of worker who had anything to do with that panel may also suffer the same fate as the 7-level.

6- The crew chief and assistant crew chief(s) assigned to that jet will be removed from the jet. Essentially, they will be manual laborers when anyone needed them. A 7-level crew chief is allowed to sign off that panel that was opened by an avionics specialist. The crew chief(s) are supposed to literally put hands on that panel to make sure all fasteners are flushed to surface. If 20 panels were opened, they are supposed to put hands on those 20 panels, make sure 20 Red X entries existed, and 20 signatures associated to sign-offs.

7- The end-of-runway (EOR) crew will be disciplined because they are the final checkpoint before the jet takes off. If necessary, the entire crew will be de-certed.

8- The maintenance officer will be investigated as to his capability to monitor his people and enforce compliance.

A panel may have an exception attached as to how many fasteners are allowed to be missing and that exception came from careful study as to security under flight stress. The missing fasteners cannot be in series and limited in how many are allowed to be absent. But if a fastener is installed, it must be flushed, not protruding.

For example...

So your statement that implied 'a couple of loose fasteners are fine' maybe acceptable in other air forces, but not ours. Not in peace time, anyway.


Other air forces maybe deterred. But not US. That is why other air forces fears US.


True, radar technologies have gotten better. But so do 'stealth' designs and how to use them in combat. We have radars and 'stealth' aircrafts to test them against each other. Others...???

SAAB should be able to test their radar vs the nEUROn,
and maybe some small, low RCS drones.
When F-35s are in full operation in neighbouring countries further tests can be done.

 

[razgriz19]

That is fine. We want as many people as possible be skeptical of the idea of low radar observability.


Aaahhh...Wrong.

Each panel have torque ratings for its fasteners. For the maintenance folks, there are three levels of workers: 3, 5, and 7.

The 3-level worker is someone who is fresh out of tech school and needs constant supervision while on the job, whether the job is on the flightline or not. The 3-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off ANY discrepancy.

The 5-level worker is someone who has at least 1 yr experience in the career field and is approved to work unsupervised. The 5-level worker is NOT authorized to sign off a major discrepancy, only MINOR discrepancies that does not affect flight status.

The 7-level worker is someone who has more experience and is allowed to sign off ALL discrepancies associated to his specialty.

When a panel is opened, the aircraft is immediately rendered non-flyable and that panel must be documented in its record.

Now...Just in case anyone thinks I make this shit up...

http://www.tinker.af.mil/Portals/106/Documents/AFD-160427-007.pdf

An opened panel is a 'Red X' item and by extension EVERY FASTENER on that panel is also a 'Red X' item under the same entry.

Once a panel is closed and all fasteners secured. Only a 7-level worker -- usually also a supervisor -- is allowed to sign off that Red X entry. If that Red X entry is the only major discrepancy, the jet is cleared for flight status. But if there are multiple major discrepancies, ALL must be cleared by appropriate levels of workers before the jet is finally cleared for flight status. This also means an avionics 7-level cannot sign off an engine change. If necessary, an engine 7-level from another squadron will be called, or the squadron must call back on duty its own engine 7-level to sign off that engine change.

If a panel is allowed to fly with a couple of panel fasteners protrude by 1/8th of an inch, and that condition was discovered by post flight inspection, these are the actions that WILL happen...

1- The jet will be immediately grounded.

2- The jet's aircraft form will be confiscated, along with all maintenance records such as logs and parts ordered forms if any.

3- Anyone who worked on that particular jet will be immediately de-cert, pending investigation closure.

4- The 7-level who signed off that panel will be disciplined, up to complete decertification of his specialty, meaning he will be a 3-level worker again. His rank/grade will not be affected, but his service record will be noted which means he can pretty much wave goodbye any chance of promotion. Essentially, he put an aircrew at risk.

5- Any lower level of worker who had anything to do with that panel may also suffer the same fate as the 7-level.

6- The crew chief and assistant crew chief(s) assigned to that jet will be removed from the jet. Essentially, they will be manual laborers when anyone needed them. A 7-level crew chief is allowed to sign off that panel that was opened by an avionics specialist. The crew chief(s) are supposed to literally put hands on that panel to make sure all fasteners are flushed to surface. If 20 panels were opened, they are supposed to put hands on those 20 panels, make sure 20 Red X entries existed, and 20 signatures associated to sign-offs.

7- The end-of-runway (EOR) crew will be disciplined because they are the final checkpoint before the jet takes off. If necessary, the entire crew will be de-certed.

8- The maintenance officer will be investigated as to his capability to monitor his people and enforce compliance.

A panel may have an exception attached as to how many fasteners are allowed to be missing and that exception came from careful study as to security under flight stress. The missing fasteners cannot be in series and limited in how many are allowed to be absent. But if a fastener is installed, it must be flushed, not protruding.

For example...

So your statement that implied 'a couple of loose fasteners are fine' maybe acceptable in other air forces, but not ours. Not in peace time, anyway.


Other air forces maybe deterred. But not US. That is why other air forces fears US.


True, radar technologies have gotten better. But so do 'stealth' designs and how to use them in combat. We have radars and 'stealth' aircrafts to test them against each other. Others...???

Believe me I know each and every screw has a proper torque rating and the maintenance manual would even tell you how to screw it on properly. IPC would even provide a break down picture of it. But that's not the point i am getting at. I don't have any experience with the military maintenance, i don't know how they are structured, but what i do know is the civil industry doesn't like guys who come from military, mostly due to their bad maintenance practices. And that says a lot. I assume they have much stricter rules for 5th generation aircraft, but in the end you can't prevent things like "smoking screws" or “smoking rivet”. I used to work in aviation (only a year or so), now I'm starting my career in NDT. Here is a belly photo of a 737-800 and I can't tell you how many times I saw extremely loose screws, they wouldn’t come out but you could grab them by head if you had long nails.

Again, I’m basing all this from my civil experience and what I saw. All I’m saying is I have seen aircraft that are 20 years or more old, and it becomes extremely hard to keep them in perfectly smooth surface (fuselage), which is what’s required for stealth, correct?

 

[gambit]

I don't have any experience with the military maintenance, i don't know how they are structured, but what i do know is the civil industry doesn't like guys who come from military, mostly due to their bad maintenance practices. And that says a lot.

I do not know what country that is, but US airliners recruits from the military.

Yes, some retraining are necessary, but overall, the US military provides a readied source of people who are comfortable with being around aircrafts. The Saudis prefers Americans and Europeans to supervise Saudis. I was once recruited by a headhunter representing the Saudi government to manage their F-15 avionics back shop. I do not have any F-15 experience, but they wanted someone who came from an environment that emphasized accountability, responsibility, and adherence to rules over personalities. US airliners hires former military members who must either possess FAA Airframe and Powerplant and FCC certification or very close to achieving both.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/story...ers-well-qualified-for-airline-work/25942181/

"Historically, we have looked to the military for [maintainer] candidates," United spokesman Charlie Hobart said.

Southwest prefers military candidates who have worked on Boeing aircraft, because it makes it easier to adjust to working on its commonly used 737s. But even military maintainers who haven't worked on aircraft similar to the Boeing 737s, or other major passenger aircraft commonly used by airlines, can get up to speed quickly.

Hobart said A&P courses often take 16 weeks to finish, but veterans can often use their military experience to cut that down to eight or even four weeks. He said maintainers who have worked on aircraft such as fighter jets that are very different from passenger aircraft usually need to get some education on how to repair them.

But for McNabb, things went even quicker. His years of military experience allowed him to get permission from the Federal Aviation Administration to skip tech school and go straight to the test for his A&P license. That included a practical evaluation at a private airport, where McNabb had to repair a Cessna — an aircraft he had never worked on before.

But the Air Force had left him with such a wealth of knowledge and experience that he was able to improvise and fix the "completely unfamiliar" aircraft, scoring his license and a job with Southwest Airlines.

There are still Vietnam War era mechanics working in US airlines.

I assume they have much stricter rules for 5th generation aircraft, but in the end you can't prevent things like "smoking screws" or “smoking rivet”. I used to work in aviation (only a year or so), now I'm starting my career in NDT. Here is a belly photo of a 737-800 and I can't tell you how many times I saw extremely loose screws, they wouldn’t come out but you could grab them by head if you had long nails.

Again, I’m basing all this from my civil experience and what I saw. All I’m saying is I have seen aircraft that are 20 years or more old, and it becomes extremely hard to keep them in perfectly smooth surface (fuselage), which is what’s required for stealth, correct?

In my 10 yrs in the USAF, not once have I ever come across a non-flushed fastener on a pre-flight check. NOT ONCE. The F-111 and the F-16 are not 'stealth'.

From now on, any US fighter that are designed for low radar observability will have its maintainers doing whatever necessary to keep their aircrafts in specs. Whatever experience you may have, it certainly is different from mine.

 

[razgriz19]

I do not know what country that is, but US airliners recruits from the military.

Yes, some retraining are necessary, but overall, the US military provides a readied source of people who are comfortable with being around aircrafts. The Saudis prefers Americans and Europeans to supervise Saudis. I was once recruited by a headhunter representing the Saudi government to manage their F-15 avionics back shop. I do not have any F-15 experience, but they wanted someone who came from an environment that emphasized accountability, responsibility, and adherence to rules over personalities. US airliners hires former military members who must either possess FAA Airframe and Powerplant and FCC certification or very close to achieving both.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/story...ers-well-qualified-for-airline-work/25942181/







There are still Vietnam War era mechanics working in US airlines.


In my 10 yrs in the USAF, not once have I ever come across a non-flushed fastener on a pre-flight check. NOT ONCE. The F-111 and the F-16 are not 'stealth'.

From now on, any US fighter that are designed for low radar observability will have its maintainers doing whatever necessary to keep their aircrafts in specs. Whatever experience you may have, it certainly is different from mine.

Canada. I'm your neighbor.
And I'm not saying they don't hire military technicians, they do. But their civilian counterparts sometimes don't like how they operate. I don't want to generalize everyone, but I have been told sometimes there are few odd ones who just work by their own rules because they've "done it for years". They're still very good technicians, but do not follow everything by the book. These guys are usually vets.

Anyway that's why i said I'm basing everything from a civilian perspective. Airplanes don't tend to age well so let's see how the military keeps it up.