The F-16: Then and Now

[CriticalThought]

IAF uses Israeli EW suites on MKIs and they are second to none in comparable aircrafts.

@The Accountant the actual situation on the border is that one of our Thunders obtained a lock on the Flanker and made it turn tail. Information supplied by @Windjammer

 

[The Accountant]

Yes but still they are in same category ... it does not mean thunder superior to flanker or vice versa as both has their pros and cons but vipers are league a head in overall avionics ...

@The Accountant the actual situation on the border is that one of our Thunders obtained a lock on the Flanker and made it turn tail. Information supplied by @Windjammer

IAF uses Israeli EW suites on MKIs and they are second to none in comparable aircrafts.

Then why to buy Rafael if your top os the line 240 plus aircraft having state of the art sub systems ? Go and sue your air force who keep on whining about vipers

 

[kaykay]

Yes but still they are in same category ... it does not mean thunder superior to flanker or vice versa as both has their pros and cons but vipers are league a head in overall avionics ...



Then why to buy Rafael if your top os the line 240 plus aircraft having state of the art sub systems ? Go and sue your air force who keep on whining about vipers

Why do you think countries maintain many types of aircrafts? IAF already inducting 270 MKIs which is a huge number and It is a heavy class fighter and primarily for air superiority role.

Don't ask kiddish questions.

 

[Khadim e Darul Ehsaan]

@The Accountant the actual situation on the border is that one of our Thunders obtained a lock on the Flanker and made it turn tail. Information supplied by @Windjammer

When did that happen ? Kindly refer me thst post where he said if u can

 

[CriticalThought]

When did that happen ? Kindly refer me thst post where he said if u can

There you go

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/teja...production-target.512521/page-10#post-9771548

He has hinted about this in multiple posts on the forum. This is only one of them.

Yes but still they are in same category ... it does not mean thunder superior to flanker or vice versa as both has their pros and cons but vipers are league a head in overall avionics ...

OK, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. You are saying that Vipers are a league ahead in avionics. So, the only lead they have is in avionics. Correct?

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

Well---what it comes down to then---that it was a poor decision to have to completely depend on he JF17---.

It should have been carried along on the side while having taken the F16/M2K/Rafale option in 2002.

Exactly.....they cannot solely depend on JF-17

 

[CriticalThought]

Exactly.....they cannot solely depend on JF-17

Sir, first of all, apologies for interrupting your discussion. I hope you won't take offense.

I have been of the opinion that Thunder's success is based on the knowledge PAF acquired from the world class platform F-16. Now that F-16 is out of the question, we need another top of the line platform to provide PAF the insight into the bleeding edge of technology available in the world. I am talking about the level of detail where you understand the flight path of cutting edge BVRs and the range limitations of latest radars. This is information that you cannot obtain simply with exercises.

In this background, the latest article by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) says PAF considers Thunder to be its qualitative driver. I take exception, based on the maturity level of aviation industry in Pakistan. We simply aren't at the cutting edge of technology. With this approach, we risk painting ourselves into a corner.

I support acquisition of modern platforms in very limited numbers to understand them and prepare our pilots for them. But our major investment must go into indigenous platforms to apply the lessons learnt.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes but still they are in same category ... it does not mean thunder superior to flanker or vice versa as both has their pros and cons but vipers are league a head in overall avionics ...



Then why to buy Rafael if your top os the line 240 plus aircraft having state of the art sub systems ? Go and sue your air force who keep on whining about vipers

Hi,

Due to common sense you get variety when you have a potent enemy like pakistan next door---.

Second---you shutdown the best aircraft available on the market to pakistan by going for the Rafale.

Young man---you have no clue how stupid Paf is----. It has made a fool of pakistanis since the 80's---.

I say again---F16 should never been pursued---the M2K should have been the choice---because that would have cutoff the sale of the best aircraft available on the market in the 80's to india---.

The treason in the Paf runs deep---. Best of the Best is never the best solution always---.

A TACTICAL purchase is the best solution----even though it may be more expensive---.

M2K was the best tactical purchase if the Paf had any BRAINS---.

 

[Raider 21]

Sir, first of all, apologies for interrupting your discussion. I hope you won't take offense.

I have been of the opinion that Thunder's success is based on the knowledge PAF acquired from the world class platform F-16. Now that F-16 is out of the question, we need another top of the line platform to provide PAF the insight into the bleeding edge of technology available in the world. I am talking about the level of detail where you understand the flight path of cutting edge BVRs and the range limitations of latest radars. This is information that you cannot obtain simply with exercises.

In this background, the latest article by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) says PAF considers Thunder to be its qualitative driver. I take exception, based on the maturity level of aviation industry in Pakistan. We simply aren't at the cutting edge of technology. With this approach, we risk painting ourselves into a corner.

I support acquisition of modern platforms in very limited numbers to understand them and prepare our pilots for them. But our major investment must go into indigenous platforms to apply the lessons learnt.

Not at all....you're entitled to your own opinion as I am. I was simply saying that the JF-17 has a long way to go....from both an engineering and flying point of view. Cheers !!!

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

If the J10 is not anywhere near the F16---then how come the JF17 is----?

I think people are either ignorant or biased. J10C is on par with any current F-16 and even surpasses it in payload.

Hi,

Due to common sense you get variety when you have a potent enemy like pakistan next door---.

Second---you shutdown the best aircraft available on the market to pakistan by going for the Rafale.

Young man---you have no clue how stupid Paf is----. It has made a fool of pakistanis since the 80's---.

I say again---F16 should never been pursued---the M2K should have been the choice---because that would have cutoff the sale of the best aircraft available on the market in the 80's to india---.

The treason in the Paf runs deep---. Best of the Best is never the best solution always---.

A TACTICAL purchase is the best solution----even though it may be more expensive---.

M2K was the best tactical purchase if the Paf had any BRAINS---.

That's the difference between a pilot and strategist's thinking. In PAF the best pilot selects the next platform so naturally he will select the best A/C. He does not think beyond his nose.

 

[CriticalThought]

Not at all....you're entitled to your own opinion as I am. I was simply saying that the JF-17 has a long way to go....from both an engineering and flying point of view. Cheers !!!

It would be insightful for me if you could provide more details on the deficiencies. If you are allowed to reveal such information.

I think people are either ignorant or biased. J10C is on par with any current F-16 and even surpasses it in payload.



That's the difference between a pilot and strategist's thinking. In PAF the best pilot selects the next platform so naturally he will select the best A/C. He does not think beyond his nose.

The debate of Viper vs. Mirage is pretty old.. Here is my question: if the Mirage is so good, why doesn't every airforce in the world buy it?

We actually have another airforce who pitted Viper vs Mirage: the Turkish Airforce. They lost 2 Vipers against Greek Mirages yet they didn't go into a buying spree for Mirage or Rafale. @cabatli_53 @HAKIKAT If God Forbid, such an incident happened in Pakistan, idiots and malevolents would have kicked up a storm.

Procurement decisions in PAF ARE NOT made by pilots. The case for F-16 was pursued by Gen Zia Marhoom himself, May Allah Shower Rewards upon him.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Need to look beyond F16

 

[CriticalThought]

Need to look beyond F16

A welcome addition indeed. In limited quantities

 

[Gurjot.S]

Yes but still they are in same category ... it does not mean thunder superior to flanker or vice versa as both has their pros and cons but vipers are league a head in overall avionics ...



Then why to buy Rafael if your top os the line 240 plus aircraft having state of the art sub systems ? Go and sue your air force who keep on whining about vipers

Why U.S keeps f-15 while they have f-18's also ?.
Rafale falls in medium category while Su-30's belongs to heavy class.
Also india is a big country, india relies heavily on twin engine fighters.

 

[The Accountant]

Why U.S keeps f-15 while they have f-18's also ?.
Rafale falls in medium category while Su-30's belongs to heavy class.
Also india is a big country, india relies heavily on twin engine fighters.

Kindly read my post once again .. i was comparing ew suites and avionics capabilites only

There you go

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/teja...production-target.512521/page-10#post-9771548

He has hinted about this in multiple posts on the forum. This is only one of them.



OK, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. You are saying that Vipers are a league ahead in avionics. So, the only lead they have is in avionics. Correct?

Avionics and engine techs ... chinese are catching up fast ... but in other areas such as weapon systems, seekers, radar ranges, they have almost clear out the gap ... with the pace china is going if they continue they will be at par on most of the fields in a decade

Why do you think countries maintain many types of aircrafts? IAF already inducting 270 MKIs which is a huge number and It is a heavy class fighter and primarily for air superiority role.

Don't ask kiddish questions.

Stupid answere ... if you are talking about weight and subsystems fulcrums already in medium weight twin engine category with all the sub systems rafael is offerings ... it is the capabilities and quality of the systems