The F-16: Then and Now

[CriticalThought]

Kindly read my post once again .. i was comparing ew suites and avionics capabilites only


Avionics and engine techs ... chinese are catching up fast ... but in other areas such as weapon systems, seekers, radar ranges, they have almost clear out the gap ... with the pace china is going if they continue they will be at par on most of the fields in a decade

All of the following are Avionics:

1. Ground avoidance.
2. Auto-pilot.
3. Auto stall detection and recovery.
4. Waypoint navigation.

Etc. All creature comforts. Thunder can go head to head without any of these.

Thunder's T/W ratio is 1.09 when configured optimally for A2A. This is actually better than Viper.

 

[The Accountant]

What childish did you find that ? Multiple aircrafts are with different roles and class for example the most advance airforce has f22 stealth and f15s twin engine for air superiroity fighter ... f16 is single engine low cost work horse doing strike michines and providing backup to f15s ... f18 is carrier based fighter ... f35 is replacement for f16 and f18 ... can you please define the same division in IAF ? There is no fit for rafael unless you accept that fulcrum and mkis are lower in capabilities ... their paper specs sounds great but actual performance is much inferrior ...

 

[CriticalThought]

What childish did you find that ? Multiple aircrafts are with different roles and class for example the most advance airforce has f22 stealth and f15s twin engine for air superiroity fighter ... f16 is single engine low cost work horse doing strike michines and providing backup to f15s ... f18 is carrier based fighter ... f35 is replacement for f16 and f18 ... can you please define the same division in IAF ? There is no fit for rafael unless you accept that fulcrum and mkis are lower in capabilities ... their paper specs sounds great but actual performance is much inferrior ...

Sir, latest Rafales are a very, very potent platform. It's like you already have MOAB but you are now aiming for nuclear missile. That's the difference in capability between SU-30 and Rafale.

In its current form, Thunder can threaten SU-30 but it will be after dinner mints for Rafale.

 

[The Accountant]

Sir you made it over simplified ... avionics is a generic term which will include every elctronic item that is being used to handle the aircrafts, i am including EW suite also part of avionics ...

So MAW systems, ECM , target aquisitions and tracking capabilities, jamming and alot more sub systems these are not the strongest of the points of russia and china

All of the following are Avionics:

1. Ground avoidance.
2. Auto-pilot.
3. Auto stall detection and recovery.
4. Waypoint navigation.

Etc. All creature comforts. Thunder can go head to head without any of these.

Thunder's T/W ratio is 1.09 when configured optimally for A2A. This is actually better than Viper.

Exactly ... thats what i am telling him that is the reason f16s (in V) configuration and latest missiles (which are not yet available to Pakistan) are in the league of rafael where is mki, fulcrums are much less capable then rafael and thunder is designed to handle mkis independently as well ... although both of the aircrafts will have pros and cons based on scnarios ...

Sir, latest Rafales are a very, very potent platform. It's like you already have MOAB but you are now aiming for nuclear missile. That's the difference in capability between SU-30 and Rafale.

In its current form, Thunder can threaten SU-30 but it will be after dinner mints for Rafale.

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir you made it over simplified ... avionics is a generic term which will include every elctronic item that is being used to handle the aircrafts, i am including EW suite also part of avionics ...

So MAW systems, ECM , target aquisitions and tracking capabilities, jamming and alot more sub systems these are not the strongest of the points of russia and china

Sir, in general, offensive electronic systems come under the category of Electronic Warfare, or EW. From wikipedia, these are the various systems treated under 'Avionics'. Notice how none of them are of an offensive nature, per se. They either make flying easier and safer, or are purely defensive in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics

A jammer on the other hand has a purely offensive purpose and comes under EW. The EW suite is distinct from the Avionics suite.

When providing specs for an aircraft, companies provide details of Avionics, EW, ECM/ESM as distinct categories. And I think it really depends on how deep the feature set is. If ESM is only a limited ability, they might just bundle it under Avionics to de-emphasize the lack of detailed support.

Although the wikipedia articles includes the ESM category, they are really pushing the boundaries.

 

[kaykay]

What childish did you find that ? Multiple aircrafts are with different roles and class for example the most advance airforce has f22 stealth and f15s twin engine for air superiroity fighter ... f16 is single engine low cost work horse doing strike michines and providing backup to f15s ... f18 is carrier based fighter ... f35 is replacement for f16 and f18 ... can you please define the same division in IAF ? There is no fit for rafael unless you accept that fulcrum and mkis are lower in capabilities ... their paper specs sounds great but actual performance is much inferrior ...

In IAF doctrine, MKIs and Mig-29s are meant to be air superiority fighters and their prime role will be to achieve air dominance while Rafale and Mirage-2000-5s will be pure multi-role fighters meant for DEAD, SEAD, bombing missions and such( currently Mirages and Mig-27s are assigned to it primarily). Jaguars are meant to be CAS fighters while Tejas will be point defence( currently Mig-21s).

IAF was low on pure multi-role fighters and selection of Rafale was meant to address that issue. Though more fighters are needed.

 

[The Accountant]

In IAF doctrine, MKIs and Mig-29s are meant to be air superiority fighters and their prime role will be to achieve air dominance while Rafale and Mirage-2000-5s will be pure multi-role fighters meant for DEAD, SEAD, bombing missions and such( currently Mirages and Mig-27s are assigned to it primarily). Jaguars are meant to be CAS fighters while Tejas will be point defence( currently Mig-21s).

IAF was low on pure multi-role fighters and selection of Rafale was meant to address that issue. Though more fighters are needed.

Lolzzz ... man did you intenrionally ignored deep strike mission ? MKIs and mirrage 2000 do not have capability to strike deep in Pakistan boundries as they can be countered easily by thunders and vipers thats why you needed rafael as Pakistani vipers are still blk 52 configuration ...

Thanks to correct me bei ... lets put it general way in my opinion chinese are slightly behind in terms of electronic offensive and defensive capabilities on their fighter aircraft in comparision to US ...

This gap is closing in fast and probably in a decade this will be eliminted ...

That is the reason viper is our frintline fighter whereas thunder is becoming from backup support fighter to second frontline fighter with blk3 coming ...

Sir, in general, offensive electronic systems come under the category of Electronic Warfare, or EW. From wikipedia, these are the various systems treated under 'Avionics'. Notice how none of them are of an offensive nature, per se. They either make flying easier and safer, or are purely defensive in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics
View attachment 422729

A jammer on the other hand has a purely offensive purpose and comes under EW. The EW suite is distinct from the Avionics suite.

When providing specs for an aircraft, companies provide details of Avionics, EW, ECM/ESM as distinct categories. And I think it really depends on how deep the feature set is. If ESM is only a limited ability, they might just bundle it under Avionics to de-emphasize the lack of detailed support.

Although the wikipedia articles includes the ESM category, they are really pushing the boundaries.

 

[kaykay]

Lolzzz ... man did you intenrionally ignored deep strike mission ? MKIs and mirrage 2000 do not have capability to strike deep in Pakistan boundries as they can be countered easily by thunders and vipers thats why you needed rafael as Pakistani vipers are still blk 52 configuration ...

Thanks to correct me bei ... lets put it general way in my opinion chinese are slightly behind in terms of electronic offensive and defensive capabilities on their fighter aircraft in comparision to US ...

This gap is closing in fast and probably in a decade this will be eliminted ...

That is the reason viper is our frintline fighter whereas thunder is becoming from backup support fighter to second frontline fighter with blk3 coming ...

Which part you didn't understand? Okay let me try one last time. My post was about IAF doctrine and different fighters have different roles in our doctrine. MKIs are meant to carry 12-14 AAMs and still have a huge range on internal fuel and thus perfect for air superiority role.

 

[The Accountant]

Which part you didn't understand? Okay let me try one last time. My post was about IAF doctrine and different fighters have different roles in our doctrine. MKIs are meant to carry 12-14 AAMs and still have a huge range on internal fuel and thus perfect for air superiority role.

So you are saying that mirrage 2000 is not a capable strike aircrafts and mig 29 is not a capable air superirority fighter ? No sane aircraft use two fighters for a single role unless retiring one in next couple of years and i dont think that fulcrums or mirrage 2000s retiring in less than 10 years at minimum ...

So either your statement is wrong or fulcrums and mirrage 2000s are useless aircrafts ...

 

[HAIDER]

toss bombing is lost cost strike rather using precision strike weapon on low value targets. Like enemy convoy or bunkers , compounds etc etc..

 

[Centurion2016]

So you are saying that mirrage 2000 is not a capable strike aircrafts and mig 29 is not a capable air superirority fighter ? No sane aircraft use two fighters for a single role unless retiring one in next couple of years and i dont think that fulcrums or mirrage 2000s retiring in less than 10 years at minimum ...

So either your statement is wrong or fulcrums and mirrage 2000s are useless aircrafts ...

So why are Pakistan Air Force using f16 and thunders for same role

Unless the thunder is not a multi role platform but point defence like tejas

 

[MastanKhan]

That's the difference between a pilot and strategist's thinking. In PAF the best pilot selects the next platform so naturally he will select the best A/C. He does not think beyond his nose.

Hi,

And exactly for that reason those F16 pilots who went to test the JH7 aircraft rejected it because it could not do the G's that they get their hard ons on---.

It is the same problem here in the U S as well---all the pilots coming out of the academy wanted to be flying the F16's or going to the F15's or F18's---.

Well---someone had to fly those A10's and B52's as well---and after training and flying those aircraft---they get to love them and don't want to fly anything else---.

Show---strut pomp and preening like a peacock is PAF's pilot's nature---the only problem he has is that he cannot kiss himself other than on a mirror.

 

[Windjammer]

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[Avijit]

Actually in the past the IAF and Indian military planners have made the excuse that PAF performed better than IAF because of it's American equipment, i would like to see F-16 in IAF colours and then perhaps Dr ito and Co, will understand that training and experience are just as vital as the equipment.


Maybe because i know a few persons who fly it and it's achievements not known to many.

There is no way to compare training. PAF did have an upper hand during '65 and '71 in terms of equipment.

 

[GURU DUTT]

forget every thing kids this in niether 1965 nor its 1980s and nor will PAF ever evr will get anything from USA with regards to Latest weapons or air fighting technology but same is opposite in Indias case and not just from USA but from France , Germany , Japan , Israel and russia also and there is nothing Pakistani Patriots can do about it

now the latest Blk is F17 70/72 which we have already made a deal with USA & TATA and getting some 8-12 full squads but still SAAB trying to sabotage it

as for the latest F16 Blk 70/72 it got latest gen turbofan with next gen low but wider landing gear with new gen digital controls and all avionics and minutrised and combined GaN AESA based EW+ECM+Internal Jamers suits & GaN AESA based radar all controlled by a 100-150 TERRABYTE DATABUS with a F-35 inspired next gen HOBS asisted by multiple ISRT's and JHMCS & HMD and internal sniper pod and a pair of composite CFT with inbuilt IFR probe

and if that was not enough all kinds of israeli air to air and air to ground weapons(PYTHON 5, DERBY, I DERBY ER, Popey ALCM & SPIKE ) in indian air force innoventorry are already compatiable with F16 and like plu & play with it abd we are reehearsing with singaporeans & israelies for almost more than a decade on F16s (SUFA & Blk52)