The F 16 Game---Paf Should Have Had A Different Game Plan

[C130]

It is a good thread for PAF. Why PAF creates only F16 pilots. PAF should to have them 4.5+G air crafts of the other countries. PAF should not depend on USA & F16 only.

why isn't Pakistan buying 4.5G fighters


Su-30
Mig-35





surely the U.S doesn't tell Pakistan what they can and cannot buy.

 

[MastanKhan]

why isn't Pakistan buying 4.5G fighters


Su-30
Mig-35





surely the U.S doesn't tell Pakistan what they can and cannot buy.

That is something beyond comprehension.

 

[S.Y.A]

So I would say, let's see how it plays out. PAF has done well by not reacting to every news and that's what is likely to happen in future. No need for knee jerk reactions. We hardly have the money for wrong impulsive decisions.

Then go for J-10, instead of wasting time and money, and becoming over dependent on a vendor PAF knows will, and already has stabbed us in the back.

 

[帅的一匹]

I always think PAF shall go for at least four squadrons of J10c. F16 has no future.

What Pakistan gonna do if USA move F16 production line to India?

To buy F16 from India?

 

[Dr Gupta]

India's upcoming purchases means a decade away. PAF bombed India before and will do it again. Don't count on your purchases too much.

Already have Spyder and Barat 8, S-400 will be signed this year, times have changed how will PAF penetrate this defence? with F16

 

[Dalit]

why isn't Pakistan buying 4.5G fighters


Su-30
Mig-35





surely the U.S doesn't tell Pakistan what they can and cannot buy.

The main reason why Pakistan keeps going for F-16s is really no secret to anyone. The infrastructure is already in place. Training and induction requires minimum time. Pakistan knows it inside out. Lastly, the capability on offer is worth every bang for the buck. Overall, cost wise the F-16 is just what Pakistan requires.

Going for a new platform also requires a new infrastructure and everything accompanied to properly induct a fighter. In short, it requires a lot of time, resources and effort before fully inducting a new platform.

The Su-30 is out of the question for obvious reasons. The only viable option from the Russians is the Su-35. We also have the option of going for J-10C which I'm a great fan of.

I am a staunch believer that PAF should now look beyond the F-16 and make the long term commitment and effort to induct a more versatile and powerful platform along with the F-16.

We will have to wait before Rafale deal concludes. We are in no hurry.

 

[Dr Gupta]

. As one senior U.S. Marine Corps aviator told me, the S-300 series is deadly. “A complete game changer for all fourth-gen aircraft [like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18]. That thing is a beast and you don’t want to get near it,” he said.

One S-300 battery is a handful, but several such systems networked together into an integrated air defense system is a nearly insurmountable challenge for most fourth-generation fighters like the F-16 or F-15


This is S-300 but India will be getting S-400 system with 6000 missiles which a F-16 has very little chance of penetrating.

Also India has the worlds much advanced AWACS systems with the Phalcon that will be able to detect further into Pakistan territory, depending on the location of PAF bases it can spot a F16 taking off which will alert the air defence systems in place.

SU-35 will not be available for PAF, India would lobby the Russians (we have bigger defence budget) the best option is a Chinese 5th gen fighter in my view.

 

[Dalit]

. As one senior U.S. Marine Corps aviator told me, the S-300 series is deadly. “A complete game changer for all fourth-gen aircraft [like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18]. That thing is a beast and you don’t want to get near it,” he said.

One S-300 battery is a handful, but several such systems networked together into an integrated air defense system is a nearly insurmountable challenge for most fourth-generation fighters like the F-16 or F-15


This is S-300 but India will be getting S-400 system with 6000 missiles which a F-16 has very little chance of penetrating.

Also India has the worlds much advanced AWACS systems with the Phalcon that will be able to detect further into Pakistan territory, depending on the location of PAF bases it can spot a F16 taking off which will alert the air defence systems in place.

SU-35 will not be available for PAF, India would lobby the Russians (we have bigger defence budget) the best option is a Chinese 5th gen fighter in my view.

You are forgetting that PAF has no intention of penetrating Indian air space. Our fighters won't have to face any S-300 or S-400 missiles.

Besides, Pakistan itself is in the process of acquiring the deadly HQ-9 SAM system mounted with an AESA radar. Once Indian fighters enter our air space they will deal with these deadly SAM batteries.

As for AWACS, Pakistan has these, state of the art, in adequate numbers from the Swedes and Chinese. We too can see what is happening on the other side of the border. You are not the only one.

Su-35 is a real prospect for the PAF. India couldn't even convince the US from not delivering the F-16s to Pakistan. The Russians don't trust the Indians due to the backstabbing during the MMRCA competition. Talks are ongoing unlike the Rafale which has become a yes no contest. Although, we have other options at our disposal such as the J-10C. Pakistan will be going for a 4.5 gen fighter before opting a 5th gen platform.

 

[Paksanity]

Then go for J-10, instead of wasting time and money, and becoming over dependent on a vendor PAF knows will, and already has stabbed us in the back.

At the moment J-10 is not fully mature and will be a very very expensive option compared to F-16s. JF-17s can undertake most of the tasks J-10 can perform. For the rest F-16 is there. And we really do not have huge budget. More JF-17s, more F-16s, and then 5th Gen. That seems good way forward under current circumstances. If economy takes off then we can talk of an additional system.

I don't see any sanctions on sustaining our F-16s in future unless something big happens like may be another nuclear test or thermonuclear test etc.

Already have Spyder and Barat 8, S-400 will be signed this year, times have changed how will PAF penetrate this defence? with F16

Russia deployed S-300 in Syria. Then Israelis came and bomb Syria with S-300 deployed. Go figure!

Last I checked Russia did not agree to sell S-400.

You are next door to us. You will get bombed and vice versa. Don't sweat it. You are no US or Russia. Don't try to pretend like one.

 

[Dr Gupta]

You are forgetting that PAF has no intention of penetrating Indian air space. Our fighters won't have to face any S-300 or S-400 missiles.

Besides, Pakistan itself is in the process of acquiring the deadly HQ-9 SAM system mounted with an AESA radar. Once Indian fighters enter our air space they will deal with these deadly SAM batteries.

As for AWACS, Pakistan has these, state of the art, in adequate numbers from the Swedes and Chinese. We too can see what is happening on the other side of the border. You are not the only one.

Su-35 is a real prospect for the PAF. India couldn't even convince the US from not delivering the F-16s to Pakistan. The Russians don't trust the Indians due to the backstabbing during the MMRCA competition. Talks are ongoing unlike the Rafale which has become a yes no contest. Although, we have other options at our disposal such as the J-10C. Pakistan will be going for a 4.5 gen fighter before opting a 5th gen platform.

The AWACS you have are not on the level of the Israeli systems, why do you think the Chinese wanted this system? until the Americans blocked the sale? the rest of what you wrote is pure garbage.

At the moment J-10 is not fully mature and will be a very very expensive option compared to F-16s. JF-17s can undertake most of the tasks J-10 can perform. For the rest F-16 is there. And we really do not have huge budget. More JF-17s, more F-16s, and then 5th Gen. That seems good way forward under current circumstances. If economy takes off then we can talk of an additional system.

I don't see any sanctions on sustaining our F-16s in future unless something big happens like may be another nuclear test or thermonuclear test etc.



Russia deployed S-300 in Syria. Then Israelis came and bomb Syria with S-300 deployed. Go figure!

Last I checked Russia did not agree to sell S-400.

You are next door to us. You will get bombed and vice versa. Don't sweat it. You are no US or Russia. Don't try to pretend like one.

Israel practised with the Greece S-300 system to gather intel and adopt tactics. Who told you that Russia has not agreed to sell the system?

Report: Israel practiced defeating S-300 Russian defense system in Greece - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

F16 can not penetrate a S-400 network system it would struggle with a S-300 which is why even the Israelis with their top notch F-16 are having to find new ways to counter it.

There is a reason why Israel needs the F-35 to penetrate the S-300 in Iran and elsewhere as they realise that the F-16 has limitations even with their Israeli world class avionics.

 

[hibiny]

Is Russia selling MiG-35? Rly?

 

[Dr Gupta]

IAF must 'invest a lot' to overcome Russian S-300 missiles, says former air force official - Israel News - Jerusalem Post


Brig.-Gen. (res.) Asaf Agmon, CEO of the Fisher Brothers Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies in Herzliya, described the S-300 as “one of the most advanced air defense systems in the world. This system will be a challenge for an air force to overcome. Its arrival is a significant change in our region.”


This is S-300 but India will get S-400

That is why I say a F-16 is yesterday's news, countries are moving to F-35 and it makes better sense for PAF to get a twin engine 5th gen fighter which can deep strike into India.

 

[randomradio]

Top IDF officer: In our nightmares, we never saw Russia's S-400 in Syria | The Times of Israel

“In our worst nightmares, we never dreamed we would have the S-400 system in our backyard with Syria, or that there would be cruise missiles here,” the member of the General Staff told Israeli defense correspondents at a briefing this week, the Walla website reported.

 

[araz]

Iam not responding to anyone in particular but want to record my thoughts.
A. WHY MORE F16s:- 35 yrs of experience on the platform thousands of pilots trained and ready to use the platform. Unparalleled accompanying PODS and other capabilities which in the region would cause a lot of stir.
B. WE ARE PAYING FOR THESE MACHINES:- PAF has been very careful in letting people know that the platforms are being subsidised to a substantial extent. Listening to AVM Shahid Lateef we last negotiated for 18 and got 14 bl. 15s free. If you continue down the route you may well find that this is a tacit trick to get PAF to buy a few new ones nad get a few old ones for MLU. The reason PAF goes for it is the capability and capacity building which at times comes as a surprise to all and sundry. It came in 2013 and I suspect it will come again soon. PAF will build tbe numbers up slowly to 110. To all those who think that things can come for free well there is no free lunch,you give something to get something. In this case it is continued support to the US forces in Afghanistan and preventing the eggress of ISIS into the region( lets not go into the who created what debate here).
C.THE THREAT OF FUTURE EMBARGOES AND SANCTIONS:- I would suggest that for the next 5-7 yrs this is not possible for two very valid reasons. The US hold on Pakistan is limited at best. We are moving away from US and it knows it. At the current point in time US is in no situation to leave Afghanistan as the residual void would result in forces which would be contrary to US interests taking over in Afghanistan. Sanctions now dont make any sense as PAF has other options available at this point in time unlike the 90s where we were being squeezed by the french really hard. PAF has somehow managed to circumvent this by storing enough spares to last at least 5 to 10 years. Secondly we have established "sources" to collect spares from in case of an emergency.
D. THE US WILL GIVE OUR SOURCE CODES TO INDIA:- I would just point out to those people who say that that that would ruin the reputation of the US aviation industry and no one in their right mind will ever buy any weaponry from them. So embargoes and stopping planes yes the rest conjecture at best and no evidence to support it from any source.
E:- PAF NEEDS TO BUY ANOTHER PLATFORM:- People who say this also need to remember that PAF is not sleeping. There is active engagement between PAF and the Chinese aviation industry and we are closely following the projects prior to making our choice. The problem is everyone wants a platform NOW but no one says which one. Lets list our possible choices.
SU35. Brilliant platform with long range a huge radar and under any circumstancesa great buy. Problems do we need such a long ranged fighter and will the russians sell it to us. Still I am really biased towards it but when you have 300MKIs and 36 Rafales would 36 really cut it probably not.
J10. A chinese medium range AESA eqiuipped fighter which looks great. Problems include the engine which is not mature as to date there is no indication of Russia having approved the AL31FN3 for onward sale. Secondly no definite advantege over JFT which may in future blocks yet have all the capabilities. So fails cost vs benefit analysis. There is the additional problem of which generation as PAF remains set on acquiring the next generation platforms from the Chinese
Typhoon. Lets leave it at that.
Gripen.. embargo prone platform with capabiliyies roughly equivalent to JFT AND NOT APPROVED FOR SALE TO PAF.
So in short very little choice left with regards to acquisition.
F:THE FUNDS:- We have no money. People who talk about SABR and SUs and J10s need to rememebr we owe the world 16 billions in payoffs in 2016 alone. Fine only 5 billion is payable in $$$ but still this money has to be paid. There is no progress on CPEC...,no progress on subs and no progress on energy source acquisition. We need at least 20 billion investment into our economy to get it back into even keel. The state enterprises like PIA and Steel mills and railways and WAPDA are oozing 500 billion a year. And yet we want to buy arms which may never be used.
So in short we need to rely on whatever we can get from sources which are affordable before we look at further acquisitions. The economy is to be boosted first because till you stary making money you cant spend it.
A

 

[Dr Gupta]

@araz That is a very sensible, mature post.