The F 16 Game---Paf Should Have Had A Different Game Plan

[araz]

@araz That is a very sensible, mature post.

Perhaps because the poster is sensible and mature,????!!
A

 

[randomradio]

D. THE US WILL GIVE OUR SOURCE CODES TO INDIA:- I would just point out to those people who say that that that would ruin the 4eputation of the US aviation industry and no one i their right mind will ever buy any weaponry from them. So embargoes and stopping planes yes the rest conjecture at best and no evidence to support it from any source.

This is actually possible if India is in a two front war. But if India is fighting only Pak, then it won't be a problem for Pak.

There is no progress on CPEC...,no progress on subs and no progress on energy source acquisition.

The problem with CPEC is it is built on more debt. Even if this comes in at 1% interest rate, it still means Pak has to pay hundreds of millions every year to repay loans. So the investment should at least make that much money minimum in tax revenues every year so you can pay it back to China. And such investments need continued future investment to keep it alive.

The even bigger problem is according to the Chinese, you need to buy Chinese workers and Chinese resources for CPEC, which means you are really giving the Chinese their money back with 1% interest along with the rights to your own land. So you need to see how much money will go back to China eventually, especially after you start importing millions of dollars of Chinese coal to fuel your thermal power plants.

 

[Dr Gupta]

The picture of the of the world economy is rather gloomy with the Chinese buying less and the oil price low the arab countries are importing less too. Prudence is key and wasting resources on expensive weapons rather than infrastructure, energy projects make little sense until global demand picks up.

Perhaps because the poster is sensible and mature,????!!
A

But sometimes living in the land of fantasy is fun and helps ease stress in our daily mundane life

 

[Dalit]

The AWACS you have are not on the level of the Israeli systems, why do you think the Chinese wanted this system? until the Americans blocked the sale? the rest of what you wrote is pure garbage.



Israel practised with the Greece S-300 system to gather intel and adopt tactics. Who told you that Russia has not agreed to sell the system?

Report: Israel practiced defeating S-300 Russian defense system in Greece - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

F16 can not penetrate a S-400 network system it would struggle with a S-300 which is why even the Israelis with their top notch F-16 are having to find new ways to counter it.

There is a reason why Israel needs the F-35 to penetrate the S-300 in Iran and elsewhere as they realise that the F-16 has limitations even with their Israeli world class avionics.

Buddy, first feed the hundreds of millions of mouths in India before acting like you are some superpower. In your country, today people are being killed just because they belong to a different caste. Indians don't need enemies because they already cannot live amongst each other. The higher caste Indians cannot get along with lower caste and vice versa.

You post garbage one-liners like your countrymen on this forum. When you are confronted with facts you don't have any arguments and try to hide behind one liners.

Fact remains that Pakistan has some of the finest AWACS in the form of Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.

Stop being ignorant now.

 

[araz]

This is actually possible if India is in a two front war. But if India is fighting only Pak, then it won't

On grounds of copromising its reputation in the defence market it never will. Thers is only one instance of the french providing the source code to the British in the Argentinian war because the British threatened to nuke Argentina. In this case it wont ever come to that as in case of a two pronged attack India will cross its nuclear threshold and all hell will break loose. So in a nutshell I would disagree.
A

But sometimes living in the land of fantasy is fun and helps ease stress in our daily mundane life

In my field of work fantasy is a luxury you cannot afford to have. I deal with cold hard facts.
A

 

[Dr Gupta]

Buddy, first feed the hundreds of millions of mouths in India before acting like you are some superpower. In your country, today people are being killed just because they belong to a different caste. Indians don't need enemies because they already cannot live amongst each other. The higher caste Indians cannot get along with lower caste and vice versa.

You post garbage one-liners like your countrymen on this forum. When you are confronted with facts you don't have any arguments and try to hide behind one liners.

Fact remains that Pakistan has some of the finest AWACS in the form of Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C.

Stop being ignorant now.

You think the Saab Erieye is the same as the A-50E/I Phalcon? are you aware of the technical specs of both systems?

The PHALCON, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna (rotodome) used by current AWACS systems, giving PHALCON greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude. The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors.
The AWE&C phased array radar replaces the conventional rotodome radar. It is mounted either on the aircraft fuselage or on top of the aircraft inside a stationary dome, providing full 360° coverage. This electronically steered beam radar delivers a tremendous advantage over mechanical rotating antenna, as it supports the tracking a high maneuvering targets. The radar can detect even low flying objects from distances of hundreds of kilometers, day and night, under all weather conditions. Verification beams sent at specific, individual, newly detected targets eliminate false alarms. Moreover, track initiation is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as compared to 20 to 40 seconds with a rotodome radar
The IFF system employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking. A monopulse technique is used to implement azimuth measurement. The IFF data is automatically correlated with the phased array radar.
The ESM/ELINT system receives, analyzes and locates radar signals, covering 360o. It combines high sensitivity with high probability of intercept, and achieves excellent accuracy in bearing measurement. The system uses narrow-band super-heterodyne receivers and wide-band instantaneous frequency measurement (IFM) techniques to provide very high accuracy and probability of intercept of airborne and surface emitters. Very high bearing accuracy for all received signals is achieved through Differential Time of Arrival (DTOA) measurements. The system also collects and analyzes ELINT data.

Sixth sense: Asia’s race for early warning missile detection capabilities - Airforce Technology

China was also quick to appreciate the benefits of that kind of technology, but when IAI pulled out of a deal to supply Phalcon systems, bowing to pressure from the US, Beijing was largely left to concentrate on home-grown solutions, such as the Shaanxi Y-8 AWACS and Y-8J AEW

 

[Dalit]

F:THE FUNDS:- We have no money. People who talk about SABR and SUs and J10s need to rememebr we owe the world 16 billions in payoffs in 2016 alone. Fine only 5 billion is payable in $$$ but still this money has to be paid. There is no progress on CPEC...,no progress on subs and no progress on energy source acquisition. We need at least 20 billion investment into our economy to get it back into even keel. The state enterprises like PIA and Steel mills and railways and WAPDA are oozing 500 billion a year. And yet we want to buy arms which may never be used.
So in short we need to rely on whatever we can get from sources which are affordable before we look at further acquisitions. The economy is to be boosted first because till you stary making money you cant spend it.
A

Clearly we do have funds no matter how little to buy F-16s. We have discussed the F-16 to death on this forum so I'm not going to argue about this anymore.

If cost, economy and paying off debt really is a major concern we shouldn't be getting any fighter in my opinion. Let's just keep building more JF-17s and concentrate on improving the economy. After all, we have a solid minimum nuke deterrence and the JF-17s are going to replace the older aircraft in the inventory.

You think the Saab Erieye is the same as the A-50E/I Phalcon? are you aware of the technical specs of both systems?

The PHALCON, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna (rotodome) used by current AWACS systems, giving PHALCON greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude. The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors.
The AWE&C phased array radar replaces the conventional rotodome radar. It is mounted either on the aircraft fuselage or on top of the aircraft inside a stationary dome, providing full 360° coverage. This electronically steered beam radar delivers a tremendous advantage over mechanical rotating antenna, as it supports the tracking a high maneuvering targets. The radar can detect even low flying objects from distances of hundreds of kilometers, day and night, under all weather conditions. Verification beams sent at specific, individual, newly detected targets eliminate false alarms. Moreover, track initiation is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as compared to 20 to 40 seconds with a rotodome radar
The IFF system employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking. A monopulse technique is used to implement azimuth measurement. The IFF data is automatically correlated with the phased array radar.
The ESM/ELINT system receives, analyzes and locates radar signals, covering 360o. It combines high sensitivity with high probability of intercept, and achieves excellent accuracy in bearing measurement. The system uses narrow-band super-heterodyne receivers and wide-band instantaneous frequency measurement (IFM) techniques to provide very high accuracy and probability of intercept of airborne and surface emitters. Very high bearing accuracy for all received signals is achieved through Differential Time of Arrival (DTOA) measurements. The system also collects and analyzes ELINT data.

Sixth sense: Asia’s race for early warning missile detection capabilities - Airforce Technology

China was also quick to appreciate the benefits of that kind of technology, but when IAI pulled out of a deal to supply Phalcon systems, bowing to pressure from the US, Beijing was largely left to concentrate on home-grown solutions, such as the Shaanxi Y-8 AWACS and Y-8J AEW

The problem with you Indians is that you like to indulge in a **** measuring contest in every single discussion even when you don't have one.

I don't need to know whether the Phalcon is better or worse. I'm not even going to waste my time reading the lengthy garbage you have copy and pasted from somewhere.

All I need to know is that we have a capability that can do the same thing as you have claimed. Whether one capability is better than the other is meaningless. These aren't offensive capabilities we are talking about.

Now stop posting garbage for God sake!

PS. Are you going to feed these wonderful Phalcons to 400+ million poor Indians?

 

[Alpha Fighter]

Clearly we do have funds no matter how little to buy F-16s. We have discussed the F-16 to death on this forum so I'm not going to argue about this anymore.

If cost, economy and paying off debt really is a major concern we shouldn't be getting any fighter in my opinion. Let's just keep building more JF-17s and concentrate on improving the economy. After all, we have a solid minimum nuke deterrence and the JF-17s are going to replace the older aircraft in the inventory.



The problem with you Indians is that you like to indulge in a **** measuring contest in every single discussion even when you don't have one.

I don't need to know whether the Phalcon is better or worse. I'm not even going to waste my time reading the lengthy garbage you h ave copy and pasted from somewhere.

All I need to know is that we have a capability that can do the same thing as you have claimed. Whether one capability is better than the other is meaningless. These aren't offensive capabilities we are talking about.

Now stop posting garbage for God sake!

PS. Are you going to feed these wonderful Phalcons to 400+ million poor Indians?

The problem is you don't know "T" of technology and start talking like you invented it.

The best part you don't have the same capability and you don't have iota of knowledge of it. If you don't know , ACWAS is also be used for Electronics Warfare ( offensive).

go and leant something with technical things rather writing fantasy.

PS , u also need to feed your millions poor PAK peoples.

 

[randomradio]

On grounds of copromising its reputation in the defence market it never will. Thers is only one instance of the french providing the source code to the British in the Argentinian war because the British threatened to nuke Argentina.

That's exactly what will happen if we go to war with China. The US won't compromise its reputation by assisting a country in a war against China. People will buy their goods and in more numbers. The countries that buy US goods are currently the ones who are against China and Russia.

The French market has stayed as strong as ever. So nothing will change. Countries know how diplomacy works.

In this case it wont ever come to that as in case of a two pronged attack India will cross its nuclear threshold and all hell will break loose. So in a nutshell I would disagree.

Nuclear war is overblown in the Indo-Pak context. Pun unintended. The countries are too close and missiles too slow. Nukes are either too small or too few. And the damage to each country will be completely lopsided, in favour of the bigger country. But please avoid the nuclear discussion, it's pointless in the context of our discussion. One of the known thresholds of a nuclear attack from Pakistan is if a large chunk of its armed forces is destroyed, so the expectation is India will first have to deal with the F-16s before the war goes nuclear.

 

[Jaam92]

Well F-16 is much better for Pakistan then another Fighter Jet
F-16 is most intelligent Fighter Jet with most killing record and even our 4.5 Gen Fighter Jet can easily beat by F-16
India Russia or USA are very big countries so that's why they need big and two engine Fighter Jets
Pakistan need Intelligent killing machine like F-16 but if it is without AESA then it is waste of Money

 

[MastanKhan]

Iam not responding to anyone in particular but want to record my thoughts.
A. WHY MORE F16s:- 35 yrs of experience on the platform thousands of pilots trained and ready to use the platform. Unparalleled accompanying PODS and other capabilities which in the region would cause a lot of stir.
B. WE ARE PAYING FOR THESE MACHINES:- PAF has been very careful in letting people know that the platforms are being subsidised to a substantial extent. Listening to AVM Shahid Lateef we last negotiated for 18 and got 14 bl. 15s free. If you continue down the route you may well find that this is a tacit trick to get PAF to buy a few new ones nad get a few old ones for MLU. The reason PAF goes for it is the capability and capacity building which at times comes as a surprise to all and sundry. It came in 2013 and I suspect it will come again soon. PAF will build tbe numbers up slowly to 110. To all those who think that things can come for free well there is no free lunch,you give something to get something. In this case it is continued support to the US forces in Afghanistan and preventing the eggress of ISIS into the region( lets not go into the who created what debate here).
C.THE THREAT OF FUTURE EMBARGOES AND SANCTIONS:- I would suggest that for the next 5-7 yrs this is not possible for two very valid reasons. The US hold on Pakistan is limited at best. We are moving away from US and it knows it. At the current point in time US is in no situation to leave Afghanistan as the residual void would result in forces which would be contrary to US interests taking over in Afghanistan. Sanctions now dont make any sense as PAF has other options available at this point in time unlike the 90s where we were being squeezed by the french really hard. PAF has somehow managed to circumvent this by storing enough spares to last at least 5 to 10 years. Secondly we have established "sources" to collect spares from in case of an emergency.
D. THE US WILL GIVE OUR SOURCE CODES TO INDIA:- I would just point out to those people who say that that that would ruin the reputation of the US aviation industry and no one in their right mind will ever buy any weaponry from them. So embargoes and stopping planes yes the rest conjecture at best and no evidence to support it from any source.
E:- PAF NEEDS TO BUY ANOTHER PLATFORM:- People who say this also need to remember that PAF is not sleeping. There is active engagement between PAF and the Chinese aviation industry and we are closely following the projects prior to making our choice. The problem is everyone wants a platform NOW but no one says which one. Lets list our possible choices.
SU35. Brilliant platform with long range a huge radar and under any circumstancesa great buy. Problems do we need such a long ranged fighter and will the russians sell it to us. Still I am really biased towards it but when you have 300MKIs and 36 Rafales would 36 really cut it probably not.
J10. A chinese medium range AESA eqiuipped fighter which looks great. Problems include the engine which is not mature as to date there is no indication of Russia having approved the AL31FN3 for onward sale. Secondly no definite advantege over JFT which may in future blocks yet have all the capabilities. So fails cost vs benefit analysis. There is the additional problem of which generation as PAF remains set on acquiring the next generation platforms from the Chinese
Typhoon. Lets leave it at that.
Gripen.. embargo prone platform with capabiliyies roughly equivalent to JFT AND NOT APPROVED FOR SALE TO PAF.
So in short very little choice left with regards to acquisition.
F:THE FUNDS:- We have no money. People who talk about SABR and SUs and J10s need to rememebr we owe the world 16 billions in payoffs in 2016 alone. Fine only 5 billion is payable in $$$ but still this money has to be paid. There is no progress on CPEC...,no progress on subs and no progress on energy source acquisition. We need at least 20 billion investment into our economy to get it back into even keel. The state enterprises like PIA and Steel mills and railways and WAPDA are oozing 500 billion a year. And yet we want to buy arms which may never be used.
So in short we need to rely on whatever we can get from sources which are affordable before we look at further acquisitions. The economy is to be boosted first because till you stary making money you cant spend it.
A

Araz,

Think out of the box----. Last time when we got the sanctions---the threat of sanctions was in the air---the presidency changed---the preferences changes---the sanctions were imposed.

It is a similar situation---Obama wants his legacy preserved----the republicans hate him with a passion---they want to see Obama's legacy smashed beyond recognition---if they come to power---they will do everything to destroy his image---.

And that is including sanctions on pakistan---because in the congress---there is a lots of rhetoric against pakistan by the republican members.

@araz That is a very sensible, mature post.

Sir,

Read my last post---see what happened in the last change of presidency before sanctions---.

 

[araz]

Araz,

Think out of the box----. Last time when we got the sanctions---the threat of sanctions was in the air---the presidency changed---the preferences changes---the sanctions were imposed.

It is a similar situation---Obama wants his legacy preserved----the republicans hate him with a passion---they want to see Obama's legacy smashed beyond recognition---if they come to power---they will do everything to destroy his image---.

And that is including sanctions on pakistan---because in the congress---there is a lots of rhetoric against pakistan by the republican members.



Sir,

Read my last post---see what happened in the last change of presidency before sanctions---.

MK.
Iwould love to think out of the box but the financial reality does not allow me to. It is 8 F16s. How much of a difference would it make to your AF makeup. For the US loosing Pakistan over 8 planes does not make sense. The likelihood is that the MLUs associated with this deal may well arrive before the change of guards at the white house. As to what goes on in the future from the F16 perspective the dye is already cast. PAF has a large fleet and the change of it now will be a long winded process and far too expensive to contemplate. The rest of all of your post is conjectural and at best based on heavy reliance of the retrospect which PAF did not have when they originally made the 16s purchase in the 80s. You and I think differently therefore it is best to agree to disagree.
Regards
A

 

[帅的一匹]

Araz,

Think out of the box----. Last time when we got the sanctions---the threat of sanctions was in the air---the presidency changed---the preferences changes---the sanctions were imposed.

It is a similar situation---Obama wants his legacy preserved----the republicans hate him with a passion---they want to see Obama's legacy smashed beyond recognition---if they come to power---they will do everything to destroy his image---.

And that is including sanctions on pakistan---because in the congress---there is a lots of rhetoric against pakistan by the republican members.



Sir,

Read my last post---see what happened in the last change of presidency before sanctions---.

Sir I think you have a more clear picture of what top brass think of Pakistan as you live in USA right now.

 

[Dalit]

The problem is you don't know "T" of technology and start talking like you invented it.

The best part you don't have the same capability and you don't have iota of knowledge of it. If you don't know , ACWAS is also be used for Electronics Warfare ( offensive).

go and leant something with technical things rather writing fantasy.

PS , u also need to feed your millions poor PAK peoples.

LOL coming from an Indian who can't spell AWACS... Learn to spell in English.

 

[Dr Gupta]

Araz,

Think out of the box----. Last time when we got the sanctions---the threat of sanctions was in the air---the presidency changed---the preferences changes---the sanctions were imposed.

It is a similar situation---Obama wants his legacy preserved----the republicans hate him with a passion---they want to see Obama's legacy smashed beyond recognition---if they come to power---they will do everything to destroy his image---.

And that is including sanctions on pakistan---because in the congress---there is a lots of rhetoric against pakistan by the republican members.



Sir,

Read my last post---see what happened in the last change of presidency before sanctions---.

I do not see USA abandoning Pakistan entirely (regardless of who win's the next election) the Pentagon need Pakistan to help stabilise Afghanistan, help with counter terrorism efforts, stem the drug narcotics trade as well as trying to keep you from moving all together in the Chinese sphere of influence.

Yes post Abbottabad and the San Bernardino shooting there is a underlying resentment but a country which has a huge nuclear arsenal and a vast Pakistani diaspora can't just be cut off and left to it's own devices. All I would say is be careful there is a old saying 'keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer' many still have not forgiven Pakistan in the US congress as they feel there was double dealings (I refer to the Haqqani network) and some even think Bin Laden was provided sanctuary be it true or not there is certainly a trust deficit present.

Pakistan needs to play the game, you still have cards in your hand but need to use them wisely.