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The F 16 Game---Paf Should Have Had A Different Game Plan

I was looking for realistic options. Su-35 is unavailable. J-20 and J-16 are unavailable too.

So there's J-10... which has not been given export clearance. This is from 2013, but still relevant even today.
J-10 fighter not yet approved for export - People's Daily Online


There is no way of knowing when the J-10 will get export clearance. That leaves only the F-16 for now as far as I can see.

Rafale is not very expensive on a per aircraft basis. The customized version with a new engine costs only $85M, about $20M more than a HAL manufactured Su-30. After upgrades, the MKI will get much more expensive than the Rafale. Let me lay it out here so there are no confusions. This is just to show what's happening in India right now. Rafale is expensive mainly because we plan to buy over 200 of them in a short time. So, the volumes make it expensive. Apart from 200+ Rafales, there is a high chance the IAF will purchase 100-150 Gripen NGs/F-16s/SH, whoever wins the second MMRCA program. EFT's in it too, but has no chance. There will be parallel production lines.

But let's avoid what India is doing, you can follow the Rafale thread for more information. I just want the topic to stay on what Pakistan is up to in order to challenge the IAF's massive buildup. I want a genuine discussion.



Information came from halloweene- A USAF pilot admitted that the Rafale had superior networking and situational awareness compared to the F-22.

The F-22 is the aircraft that the Australian Air Force claimed had situational awareness beyond compare on oath in the Australian Parliament.

Rafale was the only aircraft to fly over a S-300 unharmed in all of Euro-NATO all by itself. Rafale was the only aircraft that entered Libya well before SEAD/DEAD missions began.



The cost of maintaining a Rafale is $2.4M in France. If the cost is the same in India, then for 200 Rafales, it will cost just $480M a year. That's peanuts because by the time we have 200, India's defence budget will be far too big in comparison. It will be akin to maintaining a tiny fleet of trainers. Please do not discuss India. I hope we only talk about PAF and its options.

LOL so India acquired the Rafale due to one American pilot claiming that this fighter has a better "networking" and "situational awareness" compared to the 5th gen beast known as the F-22? Are you even serious? I'm not even going to waste my breath on this ludicrous claim.

The Rafale has never ever faced a worthy adversary. You know this and I know this. All your claims are just that. Who cares what missions this plane has flown in Libya or Timbuktu for that matter? LOL Libya is hardly a gauge for any plane to be judged on its capabilities and performance. Let it fly and test its metal against a worthy opponent and we'll talk further.

Rubbish. The maintenance cost is humungous and India will be acquiring many more which would also increase the cost manifold. Not only that, include all other current planes as well as future acquisitions and you know that this is just a logistical nightmare. India hasn't got the credentials as far as logistics is concerned.
 
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You are wrongly informed. You are no authority on Pakistan related matters. No doubt, the Su-35 is available to Pakistan and talks are ongoing. We haven't yet heard of talks being stalled or ended. The Russians have confirmed they are in talks with Pakistan so you need to stop sowing confusion.

You need to be up-to-date.

Ex-Indian envoy believes Pakistan, Russia partnership will end soon
In September, Russian Embassy’s deputy chief of mission Denis Alipov outlined that Russia’s relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature would never have any designs against India. “Pakistan is very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism,” he said.

“Russia has no plan to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan, but will supply four Mi-35 helicopters to the Islamic Republic,” he said,

Russia never offered the Su-35 to Pakistan, it was made up by Pakistani media, that's all. The Mi-35s were supplied to Pak in order to support the Afghan Taliban against ISIS. The Russians are also funding the Afghan Taliban on the Tajikistan border. If the Taliban had their own air force, the Russians would have given the helicopters to them instead. That's the reason why India transferred the IAF's Mi-24s to the Afghan Govt.

Interview:
Ties with Pakistan not against India | Russia & India Report
I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.

I hope this ends the delusion that Russia will sell jets to Pakistan.
 
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You need to be up-to-date.

Ex-Indian envoy believes Pakistan, Russia partnership will end soon


Russia never offered the Su-35 to Pakistan, it was made up by Pakistani media, that's all. The Mi-35s were supplied to Pak in order to support the Afghan Taliban against ISIS. The Russians are also funding the Afghan Taliban on the Tajikistan border. If the Taliban had their own air force, the Russians would have given the helicopters to them instead. That's the reason why India transferred the IAF's Mi-24s to the Afghan Govt.

LOL at an ex-Indian envoy making claims... Is that the best you can come up with?

Dude, deal with it. The Su-35 talks are a reality and even the Russians have confirmed it ages ago. I don't even have to post any sources because many reputable media outlets have already confirmed and extensively reported on this including non-Pakistani media. It has been discussed to death on this forum.

You are the same Indians that made ludicrous claims regarding Pakistan not being able to get their hands on the RD-93 engines. Today, we get them directly from the Russians.

Like I said, we will deal with your Rafale. You just sign the papers first...
 
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LOL so India acquired the Rafale due to one American pilot claiming that this fighter has a better "networking" and "situational awareness" compared to the 5th gen beast known as the F-22? Are you even serious? I'm not even going to waste my breath on this ludicrous claim.

I don't think you are capable of any discussion. Thanks. I will wait for better members to respond.

FWIW, the IAF chose the Rafale back in 2012. The USAF pilot said this in exercises that were recently concluded.
The Aviationist » Stunning Photos Show the F-22 Raptor training with the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale in the U.S.

Rubbish. The maintenance cost is humungous and India will be acquiring many more which would also increase the cost manifold. Not only that, include all other current planes as well as future acquisitions and you know that this is just a logistical nightmare. India hasn't got the credentials as far as logistics is concerned.

That maintenance cost is from a French official document. It is $2.4M per jet. It's a paltry amount.

LOL at an ex-Indian envoy making claims... Is that the best you can come up with?

Proves you can't read.
 
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It is a good thread for PAF. Why PAF creates only F16 pilots. PAF should to have them 4.5+G air crafts of the other countries. PAF should not depend on USA & F16 only.
dont worry it is changing. JF-17 next blocks , J-10 and J-31 are the future and the game plan we are perusing .
F-16s wont come from USA directly anymore. we might buy used ones from middle eastern and European airforces as they are replaced with F-35s etc. that will be the end of it.
 
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I don't think you are capable of any discussion. Thanks. I will wait for better members to respond.

FWIW, the IAF chose the Rafale back in 2012. The USAF pilot said this in exercises that were recently concluded.
The Aviationist » Stunning Photos Show the F-22 Raptor training with the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale in the U.S.



That maintenance cost is from a French official document. It is $2.4M per jet. It's a paltry amount.



Proves you can't read.

You just keep living in your fairy dream land. Your claims are ludicrous and you base your entire plea on the experience of one pilot. According to you, India chose the Rafale because one American pilot had something great to say about Rafale. How old are you? LOL how can anyone take you seriously.

How someone can compare the situational awareness of a technologically superior 5th gen fighter like F-22 with Rafale is just an incredible myth in itself. This is just so stupid.

You just keep patting yourself on the back by saying that the maintenance cost is "paltry". LOL We will see how you deal with logistics, maintenance, spares, cost and the whole thing once you have them.

It only proves that you are mad and insecure. Don't pollute this thread with garbage.
 
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dont worry it is changing. JF-17 next blocks , J-10 and J-31 are the future and the game plan we are perusing .
F-16s wont come from USA directly anymore. we might buy used ones from middle eastern and European airforces as they are replaced with F-35s etc. that will be the end of it.
the j10? are you sure about that buddy!? i get the j31 bu the j10 is not required as its avionics would be installed on later variants of the jf-17 wouldn't it?
 
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@MastanKhan From what I know, the J-10 has not been released for export yet. They need a couple hundred jets operational before it receives export clearance.

But that's also a problem, because by the time its given export clearance, the jet is obsolete. Take the J-10A for example, the export clearance has still not come. There was talk of the 10A being cleared soon, but I don't think even that has happened.



A genuine question for you.

What will PAF buy to counter Rafale? As I mentioned above, the J-10s are not ready for export yet. And the Russians have confirmed they haven't offered any fighters jets to Pak.

If you want to stop buying American, as far as I can see, the immediate option is to either force the Chinese to release the J-10B/C for export or buy the Gripen NG before India does.

I actually think that PAF has put itself in a hole where the options are extremely limited.



The price negotiations are almost done. The file will be going to the MoF very soon.


Senor,

Your " mention " means not much---. Paf already had 2 J10 B's on assessment last year and year prior to that---.

The J10C's are available from existing stock---a 1 / 2 sqdrn in fly away condition just at the nod of the paf.

There is an existing contract for 36 J10's since 2006 signed by Gen. Musharraf---pakistan can chose the option anytime that it wants to---a sqdrn of J10B was offered for immediate delivery between 2012--2014 when issues with india were getting ' hot '.

We don't need Gripen NG---the JF 17 BLK 3 would have everything similar to Gripen NG---and again we don't need to deal with the demands of the swedes and the sanctions either.

Now as for paf being in a hole----that is correct---it gets deeper by the day.
 
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Hi,

Damnnnnnnnnn----some long long posts on the F16 subject and the recent procurement options----.

F16 BLK52 the pakistani version is a wonderful aircraft---superior to any other aircraft in its class and to some supposedly above its class---and as for the cost factor to operate and maintain it---it is flawless.

But the issue is not of what it can do and not do---the issue is about when the string could be pulled. And the situation is very similar to as it was in the late 80's prior to the sanctions.

At that time---an out going president promised us the sale of the F 16's---and the incoming president could not hold onto the promise at the time of delivery.

So as Obama is on his way out---the coming congress and the president may not think that same way as Obama did---because Pres Obama is trying to preserve and salvage some of his legacy---thus agreeing to the sale of the F16's so that pakistan could help save the face of the U S in afghanistan .

But the coming president may not have any interest in upholding what Obama did---and same for the congress---. He or she may just simply want to smash Obama's legacy and put a stop to the sale.

The primary issue is that of the delivery of this aircraft when Pres Obama would not be in the office---otherwise---it is a wonderful aircraft.

The U S thinks that the F16 is the last hold it has left over pakistan---and it would desperately try to hold on to control that option.

So---for free F16's---I don't have any issues---they are welcome---I would rather have 36 of them----but the thing over here that I would like to say---that Paf should have orderered a different aircraft of a non U S origin---a 4.5 gen aircraft---so that the balance of power of the air force could be maintained at all costs---..

Now going back to the 80's---if after the purchase of the F16's----if the paf had gone in and procured the mirage 2 k's as a second option---the sanctions might not have come---because they would not serve any purpose.

So---for the same reason----another aircraft procurement prior to getting the F 16 was a must---at least another 2 sqdrn's---so that the talk of sanctions would die down---.

If I had a way of doing things---I would not have brought up the procurement of the F 16 on my own---I would have gone for another 4.5 gen aircraft with an AESA radar---just kept quiet about the F16 and when the americans enquired about why not getting the F16's---I would say---hey guys---we are getting an aircraft with an AESA---so we don't want to go backwards---with something without AESA---and if you have one available---please come and talk to us---we will be more than glad to hear from you.

The problem is---you can't negotiate from a position of weakness---the americans would slaughter you---.

When the americans give you an aircraft with aesa---they are changing the balance of power in the region---.

But if china is giving you an aircraft with aesa---and as you are already getting an aesa equipped aircraft---the americans are not changing the balance of power anymore---they would then be maintaining the status quo---even though the status quo now is at a few steps higher position.

So---in order for you to get the best of the best from the U S---you need to learn to sabotage their thinking---mindset and approach---throw a monkey wrench in their planning---think out of the box---.

How could the paf fck up so bad---you need a car salesman to do the dealings---warriors are the worst people to do the dickering---.

The F16 AESA was available on a platter----it was just about the game plan and strategy.

It really does not make much sense to go for the ones without AESA.


@rockstar08 @Viper0011. @Zarvan & everbody else
again another rant thread.
let me expain............again (and it wont be the last)

WHY! do you want another 4th gen fighter? some may argue beause of the suppaduppa aesa and the long legs. and no americain dependance.

the aesa radar is no problem as you guys are looking at the chinese aesa and the vixen1000. and also why would the blk 52's need them? the apg69/v9 are very capable and the aim120's are perfect. the long legs? heck with cft'sand2x 600 gallon fuel tanks you can cover a huge amount of india. and last time i checked your not going to war.

so that leaves independance. sure thats true, butwhat would othe alternatives do you have? gripen? no underpowered an near the same spec as the jf17. j10? unreliable engines and the russia did not grant en end user export licence on the engine till only a few yers ago. when they were needed in 2010'ish the latest. and that time was when the block 52's came in. russian aircraft are banned at the time. so this left the rafale and the typhoon (before indian tender) they preferd the rafale as it all was under one company unlike the typhoon was was bult by several companies in differant countries. but that too along with the typhoon was too expensive.

so now what? i think a rose styled program is in order which it kinda is buying used jets from jordan and new ones for the states. but ulike the rose program this time procurment of jets means buying new jets too.

ok so lets say you wanted a 4th gen fighter thats not american what is tey out there? the only option is the typhoon is the only option out there and all you need is a spare $8+ billion. this is too much for a 6 year [approx]stopgap to match india. so the only viable option is working on a 5th gen fighter, turkey has the tfx which willbe a twin engined fighter and one that ill coe with western tech and the tech will come openly to pakistan should pakistan have the brains to take it. or they can choose the j31. now there are internet images of a fighter near enough exactly the same size of a f22 in china. SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development | News & Discussions. | Page 132

also @MastanKhan buying fighter jets is alot more complicated then buying a car.

Senor,

Your " mention " means not much---. Paf already had 2 J10 B's on assessment last year and year prior to that---.

The J10C's are available from existing stock---a 1 / 2 sqdrn in fly away condition just at the nod of the paf.

There is an existing contract for 36 J10's since 2006 signed by Gen. Musharraf---pakistan can chose the option anytime that it wants to---a sqdrn of J10B was offered for immediate delivery between 2012--2014 when issues with india were getting ' hot '.

We don't need Gripen NG---the JF 17 BLK 3 would have everything similar to Gripen NG---and again we don't need to deal with the demands of the swedes and the sanctions either.

Now as for paf being in a hole----that is correct---it gets deeper by the day.
seems you quiet alot there @Deino is there surpluss j10b/c's?
yes mushy signed for them on 06 and it's near enough a decade later and they are still not there.
why buy a chinese version of an f16 when yu can have the american version instead. what would you pick?
 
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Senor,

Your " mention " means not much---. Paf already had 2 J10 B's on assessment last year and year prior to that---.

The J10C's are available from existing stock---a 1 / 2 sqdrn in fly away condition just at the nod of the paf.

There is an existing contract for 36 J10's since 2006 signed by Gen. Musharraf---pakistan can chose the option anytime that it wants to---a sqdrn of J10B was offered for immediate delivery between 2012--2014 when issues with india were getting ' hot '.

We don't need Gripen NG---the JF 17 BLK 3 would have everything similar to Gripen NG---and again we don't need to deal with the demands of the swedes and the sanctions either.

Now as for paf being in a hole----that is correct---it gets deeper by the day.

I don't know how willing the PLAAF will be with losing their own customized aircraft. But I suppose I have to take your word on the J-10 counter.
 
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Okay, I can't keep flogging dead horses everywhere, but this has been repeated all over the forum and explained in detail in the Rafale thread.

The MMRCA program has tripled, maybe even quadrupled. At least 200 Rafales will be made in India. There may be a second MMRCA line where Gripen, F-16, SH and EFT are competing in.

The total requirement between the IAF and IN over the next 10 years is 550 jets.
Those are-
120+ LCAMk1/A
200+ Rafale
120+ second MMRCA
A possible third line rumour is also going around. It could be the second LCA line or another foreign fighter for 120+ fighters. Or this third line could be split between the Rafale and the second MMRCA line, which is the most logical outcome.

Total = 560+. Target date is 2027.

I would suggest reading the Rafale thread in detail please, from I think page 123 onwards.

And before you say the Rafale is expensive, let me also explain this bit. The costs for the MMRCA program was divided into acquisition cost and total LCC. The acquisition cost was $120M/jet or $15B for all 126. The LCC cost over 40 years was $300M/jet. So the total immediate cost of inducting all Rafales was just $15B or Rs 90,000 Crore, this was revealed by DM Parrikar.

Through the GTG deal, now the cost for a new version of Rafale with upgraded engines + IAF specific customization is $100M. So the cost of acquisition of all 200 Rafales will be $20B. That's just 20% of the IAF's capital budget of $100B until 2027. And please note that I calculated the $100B at a very modest growth rate of 8%. FYI, the MoD is preparing to send back $6B of unspent funds back to the exchequer to reduce the fiscal budget this year. So let's not bring the uninformed reasoning that India doesn't have money please.

The numbers were cut back for two reasons. One was to take care of immediate operational needs. The second was to use the 50% offsets clause to pay for the production line in India.

The second MMRCA line is expected to cost considerably less than the Rafale deal. At least that's the condition for the second deal.

Also, please note that this 550 number hasn't taken into consideration the IN requirement of 100 more MMRCA jets by 2027.

Hi,

The thing is that if we had moved ahead 3 years ago---that would have given us a major tactical advantage---. Let us not be cponcerned with depleting IAF strength---let us keep in focus our " impotency "---.

Even with depleted strength--the Iaf has massive numbers of superior aircraft---so the dep[letion in sqdrn strength does not mean much.

If the J10 did not meet specs---then paf should have done something to bring it to par----.

That's right, an AESA equipped PAF would have been a pretty big advantage over the IAF. The IAF would have forced the govt to purchase more Rafales at an unnecessarily high price compared to today. Kinda like how the IA bought the T-90S immediately after PA bought the T-80UD.

As an Indian taxpayer, I give my thanks to the PAF. :D
 
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