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The F 16 Game---Paf Should Have Had A Different Game Plan

I think 8 F16 is free of charge. I think PAF has no money to buy new fighter from China now. Unless China provide same CSF programme as US to aid Pakistan. Money is always the biggiest problem here.

Pakistan had ordered 2 squadrons of J-10B version back when Musharaf was their president.

What happened to that?

The news just fizzled out. I remember a discussion of 36 units planned to be purchased.

Musharaf even visited the J-10 plant.

Any details on that report?
 
Hi,

Money for 2 sqdrn's of J10C's is not an issue----.

The integration would be less of an issue---because the weapons are the same for both the jf17 and J10's---.

The problem is with the mindset of " mastered "----that has clouded the judgement of many---.

The purpose is not to move away from the F16---but the purpose is to make the future procurements of F16's secure---.

For that---there has to be a parallel platform---so that the issue of sanctions just fizzles out---because it won't serve any purpose.

Just like in the 80's---after the first 36 F16's---if the Paf had gone for a 36 mirage 2 k as some had advised---the sanctions would not have been enforced because it would have made no difference---.

It is only when you are thirsty---the withholding of water may create a problem for you---but if there is a well a few steps away that you can quench your thirst from---the control means nothing.

As I said before----this drama is all about salvaging Obama's legacy---once he is gone---there are new issues---just like the last time.

It's a good deal. Let's not discredit those who made it successful. 8 aircraft are not closing any door nor are they making us any more sanction prone than we already are. If at all, they are making us less susceptible to sanctions. You can always use these aircraft to sustain rest of F-16s. There is minimal financial impact in buying as well as sustaining these birds. So any money which could be spent on something else is still intact. These 8 have not closed any option but have increased them in fact. Along with boost in our capability albeit small.
 
Sir. Different plans are indeed there though will take sometime or it is like not on surface for the time being and in the mean time free addition like this, is welcome.
 
Hi,

Money for 2 sqdrn's of J10C's is not an issue----.

The integration would be less of an issue---because the weapons are the same for both the jf17 and J10's---.

The problem is with the mindset of " mastered "----that has clouded the judgement of many---.

The purpose is not to move away from the F16---but the purpose is to make the future procurements of F16's secure---.

For that---there has to be a parallel platform---so that the issue of sanctions just fizzles out---because it won't serve any purpose.

Just like in the 80's---after the first 36 F16's---if the Paf had gone for a 36 mirage 2 k as some had advised---the sanctions would not have been enforced because it would have made no difference---.

It is only when you are thirsty---the withholding of water may create a problem for you---but if there is a well a few steps away that you can quench your thirst from---the control means nothing.

As I said before----this drama is all about salvaging Obama's legacy---once he is gone---there are new issues---just like the last time.
F-16 production and assembly lines have to be closed soon due to lack of new and fulfilment of old orders.Constantly recurring problems with F-35 are delaying the start of mass production of this stealth fighter.Hence ,offers of 8 machines to Pakistan and a new squadron to Iraq,and more recently a luddo of under licence manufacture in India are desperate measures to buy time.Singapore and Taiwan are already upgrading their F-16 with scalable AESA radar
,but having only 8 aircraft's with AESA will create more problems than benefits, ie,infrastructure for repair,overhauling, spare parts and technical personal etc.PAF if possible should go for big number of block 15 to be upgraded with AESA and airframe life extension technologies.
 
Agreed it's not viable to keep all your eggs in one basket, but what real options were out there.....the French weren't ready to strip down the MK-2 from the gadgets that weren't required by the PAF and wanted to sell their aircraft at full price, besides with the Submarines deal, we saw how even the French can turn corners, they weren't even happy with PAF acquiring the old Mirages directly from the user as the French wanted to buy them back, upgrade the aircraft and then sell them off to the PAF and pocket a few millions. During Air chief's last visit, some facts and figures were laid out on Capitol Hill...,..credit must be given where bit's due.....imagine after the conclusion of Indian MMRCA deal, had PAF jumped the gun and went for something to counter the Rafale, today we would have been paying through the nose to counter something which after three years still exists on paper. Firstly with the change of security environment, there's no chance of US repeating the 90s.....besides PAF now has contingency plans in place to counter any such eventualities .
 
Agreed it's not viable to keep all your eggs in one basket, but what real options were out there.....the French weren't ready to strip down the MK-2 from the gadgets that weren't required by the PAF and wanted to sell their aircraft at full price, besides with the Submarines deal, we saw how even the French can turn corners, they weren't even happy with PAF acquiring the old Mirages directly from the user as the French wanted to buy them back, upgrade the aircraft and then sell them off to the PAF and pocket a few millions. During Air chief's last visit, some facts and figures were laid out on Capitol Hill...,..credit must be given where bit's due.....imagine after the conclusion of Indian MMRCA deal, had PAF jumped the gun and went for something to counter the Rafale, today we would have been paying through the nose to counter something which after three years still exists on paper. Firstly with the change of security environment, there's no chance of US repeating the 90s.....besides PAF now has contingency plans in place to counter any such eventualities .
Our neighbor screwed themselves during MRCA competition, they invite top jets to compete but rejected most advance jets for non-sense reasons..many contenders lost millions by building customs jets for Indian needs...Upon Rafale deal Russia and USA wanted to sell their jets to Pakistan...now we have more options if USA refuse...
 
Pakistan is already pursuing Russian flankers and the Chinese J10. Also, the JF17 block 3 will have an AESA radar.

Not to mention that Bernie Sanders seems likely to win the US election, and he is far more liberal than Obama so I have no doubts our supply of F16's will continue.
 
Pakistan is already pursuing Russian flankers and the Chinese J10. Also, the JF17 block 3 will have an AESA radar.

Not to mention that Bernie Sanders seems likely to win the US election, and he is far more liberal than Obama so I have no doubts our supply of F16's will continue.
haha bernie sanders , rofl
 
At that time---an out going president promised us the sale of the F 16's---and the incoming president could not hold onto the promise at the time of delivery.

But the coming president may not have any interest in upholding what Obama did---and same for the congress---. He or she may just simply want to smash Obama's legacy and put a stop to the sale.
Oh wait! This ain't a 'sale'! It's more of a gift out of the $800 million to be handed over to you on a silver platter as so called 'Coalition Support Funds'.

AESA or no AESA, you can't look a gift horse in the mouth can you?
 
Oh wait! This ain't a 'sale'! It's more of a gift out of the $800 million to be handed over to you on a silver platter as so called 'Coalition Support Funds'.

AESA or no AESA, you can't look a gift horse in the mouth can you?

It's technically a sale with highly subsidised price. Pakistan will pay that subsidised price. How are price negotiations going on Rafale, by the way?
 
It's technically a sale with highly subsidised price. Pakistan will pay that subsidised price. How are price negotiations going on Rafale, by the way?
Price negotiations on the Rafale?? :woot: :omghaha:

That was a joke, right? It's like a sabzi bazaar out there! Haggling like old women for a bargain. Jeeez!
 
Certainly agree that the PAF should have just asked for any aircraft with AESA radars when the US asked what we wanted, rather then asking for more f-16s.

The f16 factory is closing soon, interesting what PAF will do after as they will be forced to look at something else
 
Price negotiations on the Rafale?? :woot: :omghaha:

That was a joke, right? It's like a sabzi bazaar out there! Haggling like old women for a bargain. Jeeez!

You should show some respect to India and its government. Calling them old woman and Saudi bazaar is not nice. Price has not been finalised and negotiations are still going on. That's what your government's stance is.
 
Hi,

Damnnnnnnnnn----some long long posts on the F16 subject and the recent procurement options----.

F16 BLK52 the pakistani version is a wonderful aircraft---superior to any other aircraft in its class and to some supposedly above its class---and as for the cost factor to operate and maintain it---it is flawless.

But the issue is not of what it can do and not do---the issue is about when the string could be pulled. And the situation is very similar to as it was in the late 80's prior to the sanctions.

At that time---an out going president promised us the sale of the F 16's---and the incoming president could not hold onto the promise at the time of delivery.

So as Obama is on his way out---the coming congress and the president may not think that same way as Obama did---because Pres Obama is trying to preserve and salvage some of his legacy---thus agreeing to the sale of the F16's so that pakistan could help save the face of the U S in afghanistan .

But the coming president may not have any interest in upholding what Obama did---and same for the congress---. He or she may just simply want to smash Obama's legacy and put a stop to the sale.

The primary issue is that of the delivery of this aircraft when Pres Obama would not be in the office---otherwise---it is a wonderful aircraft.

The U S thinks that the F16 is the last hold it has left over pakistan---and it would desperately try to hold on to control that option.

So---for free F16's---I don't have any issues---they are welcome---I would rather have 36 of them----but the thing over here that I would like to say---that Paf should have orderered a different aircraft of a non U S origin---a 4.5 gen aircraft---so that the balance of power of the air force could be maintained at all costs---..

Now going back to the 80's---if after the purchase of the F16's----if the paf had gone in and procured the mirage 2 k's as a second option---the sanctions might not have come---because they would not serve any purpose.

So---for the same reason----another aircraft procurement prior to getting the F 16 was a must---at least another 2 sqdrn's---so that the talk of sanctions would die down---.

If I had a way of doing things---I would not have brought up the procurement of the F 16 on my own---I would have gone for another 4.5 gen aircraft with an AESA radar---just kept quiet about the F16 and when the americans enquired about why not getting the F16's---I would say---hey guys---we are getting an aircraft with an AESA---so we don't want to go backwards---with something without AESA---and if you have one available---please come and talk to us---we will be more than glad to hear from you.

The problem is---you can't negotiate from a position of weakness---the americans would slaughter you---.

When the americans give you an aircraft with aesa---they are changing the balance of power in the region---.

But if china is giving you an aircraft with aesa---and as you are already getting an aesa equipped aircraft---the americans are not changing the balance of power anymore---they would then be maintaining the status quo---even though the status quo now is at a few steps higher position.

So---in order for you to get the best of the best from the U S---you need to learn to sabotage their thinking---mindset and approach---throw a monkey wrench in their planning---think out of the box---.

How could the paf fck up so bad---you need a car salesman to do the dealings---warriors are the worst people to do the dickering---.

The F16 AESA was available on a platter----it was just about the game plan and strategy.

It really does not make much sense to go for the ones without AESA.


@rockstar08 @Viper0011. @Zarvan & everbody else
If USA is paying for F-16 than they should come otherwise it's time to look for J-10 C or Euro Fighter or SU-35
 
Money for 2 sqdrn's of J10C's is not an issue.

But what I've read on this very forum many times is that the PAF was reluctant to go for the J-10 BECAUSE they were overpriced. How true is that?
 

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