The F 16 Game---Paf Should Have Had A Different Game Plan

[Tipu7]

But what I've read on this very forum many times is that the PAF was reluctant to go for the J-10 BECAUSE they were overpriced. How true is that?

J10B was not good enough.
Jf17 III will be as good as J10B............. so there was no reason to induct new aircraft in small numbers.
Moreover this deal was associated with Indian MMRCA deal which failed to materialize in full potential. Even still no Rafales are coming in IAF as long as 2019. So its better to mature Jf17 in mean time and induct surplus or new F16s...

 

[Tshering22]

Wow!! I am Speechless...............

There is a Famous Saying "Once Bitten Twice Shy"

Yanks stopped your paid F16s in 1990s. Then again they stopped the Spare parts....

Each time Yanks throw some tit-bits - Why does Pakistan Leadership Run to them!!!
A Smart Nation, once being Bitten will Never never put Foot in A Trap !!

Here Yanks have given you a Token number of f16s, you become caged ------------- How ?

a) You Become Dependent on Spare Parts
b) Ammunition
c) Treaties...
d) Best of all" Your Military Junta and Politicians" use this an Oppertunity to show case "Historic Agreement"

Wake up Wake up Pakistan, yet again you got sucked in Yanki Trap.

"What if Yanks stopped ammo in War, what if they gave these Birds with Strings attached ---- such things are never disclosed to a Common Man"

By that logic, we should be manufacturing our own C-17s and C-130s and P-8s.

Why that is not the case then.

 

[Scavenger]

By that logic, we should be manufacturing our own C-17s and C-130s and P-8s.

Why that is not the case then.

That is teh goal.
However, when we buy US weaponry or equipment, we stockpile the spare parts in huge quantities(much more than an average customer does) just precisely to guard against this possibility.

 

[Dalit]

Hi,

At the top tier---the paf is totally dominated by F16 fighter pilots---it would be very difficult to get something else in there---unless the prime minister forces it on them.

No matter whether the F-16 deal goes through or not, PAF will sooner rather than later have to opt for a different platform to counter superior Indian acquisitions. Even if the PAF today get their hands on more F-16s they simply cannot expect to continue operating these aircraft for an eternity. This is just a plain fact. As the enemy continues to evolve and upgrade its capability, so will Pakistan have to adapt and provide a suitable answer. The F-16s on offer are certainly good aircraft, but like any other 4th gen platform limited to the performance they offer. Pakistan has many requirements including naval aspirations. All these requirements need to be looked after. Taking all these facts into account, PAF will have to diversify its capabilities in the coming years.

Having said that, I also passionately believe that PAF should have opted for a different platform at this point of time. The timing is right to opt for another more superior and able platform. Be it Chinese or Russian.

The Americans have acted like spoilers by offering the F-16s after realizing that Pakistan is in talks with the Russians for Su-35. The Americans were actually in disbelief and the amount of reporting and paranoia that has gone into this from their side is a testimony to this fact. They also seek to influence Pakistan's role in Afghanistan. These F-16s didn't come for free. The numbers are meager, but even 8 will add something substantial to the existing sizable fleet that PAF already operates.

My opinion now is that PAF should go for the F-16s along with another aircraft to upgrade its current capability.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed it's not viable to keep all your eggs in one basket, but what real options were out there.....the French weren't ready to strip down the MK-2 from the gadgets that weren't required by the PAF and wanted to sell their aircraft at full price, besides with the Submarines deal, we saw how even the French can turn corners, they weren't even happy with PAF acquiring the old Mirages directly from the user as the French wanted to buy them back, upgrade the aircraft and then sell them off to the PAF and pocket a few millions. During Air chief's last visit, some facts and figures were laid out on Capitol Hill...,..credit must be given where bit's due.....imagine after the conclusion of Indian MMRCA deal, had PAF jumped the gun and went for something to counter the Rafale, today we would have been paying through the nose to counter something which after three years still exists on paper. Firstly with the change of security environment, there's no chance of US repeating the 90s.....besides PAF now has contingency plans in place to counter any such eventualities .

Hi Windy,

Once india decided on the MMRCA---that was the time for pakistan to get the right aircraft---. You would have been ahead of the curve---.

It would have given you time to operate and integrate the aircraft---.

You wasted the 3 years cushion---that was given as a free gift from the enemy---.


The problem with you posters is---that none of you are understanding what I wrote---.

I did not say that do not get the F16's---that are coming free of cost---but get them with AESA---. I explained how to be in a better position to get them.

If the U S supplies you the aesa---it is changing the balance of power----but if you already have an aesa equipped aircraft available---like a J10 or a J16----then the U S is not the game changer---.

And it would not have been aesa for 8 aircraft only---the upgrade could have been asked for the 18 already in stock---.

The problem is in getting a top tier aircraft---and the problem is the Air Chief---the air chief who cannot be promoted without the consent and permission of the U S.

 

[Tshering22]

That is teh goal.
However, when we buy US weaponry or equipment, we stockpile the spare parts in huge quantities(much more than an average customer does) just precisely to guard against this possibility.

I don't think we think so proactively.

What makes you think that Americans will not know this and limited the supply of spares while we ask for them as our excess stock?

Sorry for playing the devil's advocate but I don't see such smartness from IAF officials who are pathetic at equipment planning for future.

 

[randomradio]

@MastanKhan From what I know, the J-10 has not been released for export yet. They need a couple hundred jets operational before it receives export clearance.

But that's also a problem, because by the time its given export clearance, the jet is obsolete. Take the J-10A for example, the export clearance has still not come. There was talk of the 10A being cleared soon, but I don't think even that has happened.

imagine after the conclusion of Indian MMRCA deal, had PAF jumped the gun and went for something to counter the Rafale

A genuine question for you.

What will PAF buy to counter Rafale? As I mentioned above, the J-10s are not ready for export yet. And the Russians have confirmed they haven't offered any fighters jets to Pak.

If you want to stop buying American, as far as I can see, the immediate option is to either force the Chinese to release the J-10B/C for export or buy the Gripen NG before India does.

I actually think that PAF has put itself in a hole where the options are extremely limited.

How are price negotiations going on Rafale, by the way?

The price negotiations are almost done. The file will be going to the MoF very soon.

 

[batmannow]

@MastanKhan From what I know, the J-10 has not been released for export yet. They need a couple hundred jets operational before it receives export clearance.

But that's also a problem, because by the time its given export clearance, the jet is obsolete. Take the J-10A for example, the export clearance has still not come. There was talk of the 10A being cleared soon, but I don't think even that has happened.



A genuine question for you.

What will PAF buy to counter Rafale? As I mentioned above, the J-10s are not ready for export yet. And the Russians have confirmed they haven't offered any fighters jets to Pak.

If you want to stop buying American, as far as I can see, the immediate option is to either force the Chinese to release the J-10B/C for export or buy the Gripen NG before India does.

I actually think that PAF has put itself in a hole where the options are extremely limited.



The price negotiations are almost done. The file will be going to the MoF very soon.

Rafales can easily matched with SU*35S modified form or even , J 20S /J16s/J10c s with specific modifications ?
its not that rafales been the only best of Fighter aircrafts in the world ?
We can produce , a real hit squad if we wanted it to?
with our existing , F*16 fleet & adding the above mentioned , chinese or russian type of Fighters can make IAF rafales a very expensive gamble against PAF , which won't be in offensive action specially ?
that's enough for PAF , that IAF can't come up with any aggressive plans .

 

[cloud4000]

From what I know, the J-10 has not been released for export yet. They need a couple hundred jets operational before it receives export clearance.

According to Jane's, China has 400 J-10s in operation.

PLANAF J-10 lost in crash | IHS Jane's 360

According to Wikipedia, price per unit is about $28 million a piece. Not bad.

 

[Syed Hussain]

Sometimes a right way of diplomacy is the only thing required. Even F-16 could have been "tamed" if enough professional commitment would have been given to it instead of more than enough "craze" about this jet.
As Iranians tamed the Tomcats, successfully turning them into "Persian Cats" in a position way much weaker than what we are at and with a far more complex and new(at that time) system.
Right strings pulled at the right time with the right tone and help from the right hands can make anything possible.
Turkey could have been a single answer for all the related "need to do" things about this matter. As Turkey has retrofitted its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous mission computer and avionics developed by ASELSAN, hence enabling Turkey to integrate non-US sub-systems, avionics and weapons, with a designation of F-16 Özgür.
Also notable is the news of "availability of these indigenous Turkish upgrade kits and mission computer for export to other nations".
An indirect deal could have been made possible which would have enabled our MLU's to have it's mission computers and avionics switched with the Turkish ones and thus the "problematic part" which is the Data Link could also have been altered. Also enabling the integration of weapons of local or other international origins.
The manufacturing of new F-16's in TAI manufacturing lines was also possible as it was in the case of Egypt, relieving any further fear of the "Trojan Horses" in the product. While the EEP variant of the F-100 would have nullified any further interference probability if once got with enough spares cz of its extraordinary durability.
But after all, we can only burn our hearts for the sake of "catharsis".

 

[Dalit]

Rafales can easily matched with SU*35S modified form or even , J 20S /J16s/J10c s with specific modifications ?
its not that rafales been the only best of Fighter aircrafts in the world ?
We can produce , a real hit squad if we wanted it to?
with our existing , F*16 fleet & adding the above mentioned , chinese or russian type of Fighters can make IAF rafales a very expensive gamble against PAF , which won't be in offensive action specially ?
that's enough for PAF , that IAF can't come up with any aggressive plans .

The Indians are making too much of the Rafale. No one is denying that in its class it is a force to be reckoned with, but to say that this is the best thing since sliced bread is kind of ridiculous. Pakistan has plenty of options to counter the Rafale adequately. Personally, I would opt for something like the Su-35 which would smoke the Rafale any day any time. The newer Block F-16s would also wreak havoc.

The Indians are digging their own grave by acquiring this many type of fighters from so many suppliers. Let's first see how they cope with keeping these fighters airworthy. The expense and cost of keeping such a huge, overly diverse and insanely expensive fleet airworthy is a logistical and economic nightmare for any developing nation air force. Let alone one which has no experience nor any history of dealing with this many aircraft.

Pakistan should keep things simple and not overreact here. The F-16 and another Russian or Chinese premium fighter is adequate to deal with this threat. Our goal is to have a strong and lethal minimum detterence without burdening or making things too complicated. The goal is to be ready when aggression is imposed. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I think 8 F16 is free of charge. I think PAF has no money to buy new fighter from China now. Unless China provide same CSF programme as US to aid Pakistan. Money is always the biggiest problem here.

Not really, thanks to inflation our budget is up to 9.6 billion and we have excess money.

 

[randomradio]

Rafales can easily matched with SU*35S modified form or even , J 20S /J16s/J10c s with specific modifications ?
its not that rafales been the only best of Fighter aircrafts in the world ?
We can produce , a real hit squad if we wanted it to?
with our existing , F*16 fleet & adding the above mentioned , chinese or russian type of Fighters can make IAF rafales a very expensive gamble against PAF , which won't be in offensive action specially ?
that's enough for PAF , that IAF can't come up with any aggressive plans .

I was looking for realistic options. Su-35 is unavailable. J-20 and J-16 are unavailable too.

So there's J-10... which has not been given export clearance. This is from 2013, but still relevant even today.
J-10 fighter not yet approved for export - People's Daily Online

Ma Zhiping made a clear statement in an interview by reporters from Global Times on September 25 that: "We can say in a very responsible way that the J-10 fighter aircraft hasn't been exported to Pakistan. The export of a model of military aircraft has to be approved by the country first. However, J-10 hasn't acquired the related export license so far."

There is no way of knowing when the J-10 will get export clearance. That leaves only the F-16 for now as far as I can see.

Rafale is not very expensive on a per aircraft basis. The customized version with a new engine costs only $85M, about $20M more than a HAL manufactured Su-30. After upgrades, the MKI will get much more expensive than the Rafale. Let me lay it out here so there are no confusions. This is just to show what's happening in India right now. Rafale is expensive mainly because we plan to buy over 200 of them in a short time. So, the volumes make it expensive. Apart from 200+ Rafales, there is a high chance the IAF will purchase 100-150 Gripen NGs/F-16s/SH, whoever wins the second MMRCA program. EFT's in it too, but has no chance. There will be parallel production lines.

But let's avoid what India is doing, you can follow the Rafale thread for more information. I just want the topic to stay on what Pakistan is up to in order to challenge the IAF's massive buildup. I want a genuine discussion.

The Indians are making too much of the Rafale. No one is denying that in its class it is a force to be reckoned with, but to say that this is the best thing since sliced bread is kind of ridiculous.

Information came from halloweene- A USAF pilot admitted that the Rafale had superior networking and situational awareness compared to the F-22.

The F-22 is the aircraft that the Australian Air Force claimed had situational awareness beyond compare on oath in the Australian Parliament.

Rafale was the only aircraft to fly over a S-300 unharmed in all of Euro-NATO all by itself. Rafale was the only aircraft that entered Libya well before SEAD/DEAD missions began.

The Indians are digging their own grave by acquiring this many type of fighters from so many suppliers. Let's first see how they cope with keeping these fighters airworthy. The expense and cost of keeping such a huge and expensive fleet airworthy is a logistical and economic nightmare.

The cost of maintaining a Rafale is $2.4M in France. If the cost is the same in India, then for 200 Rafales, it will cost just $480M a year. That's peanuts because by the time we have 200, India's defence budget will be far too big in comparison. It will be akin to maintaining a tiny fleet of trainers. Please do not discuss India. I hope we only talk about PAF and its options.

 

[Dalit]

I was looking for realistic options. Su-35 is unavailable. J-20 and J-16 are unavailable too.

So there's J-10... which has not been given export clearance. This is from 2013, but still relevant even today.
J-10 fighter not yet approved for export - People's Daily Online


There is no way of knowing when the J-10 will get export clearance. That leaves only the F-16 for now as far as I can see.

Rafale is not very expensive on a per aircraft basis. The customized version with a new engine costs only $85M, about $20M more than a HAL manufactured Su-30. After upgrades, the MKI will get much more expensive than the Rafale. Let me lay it out here so there are no confusions. This is just to show what's happening in India right now. Rafale is expensive mainly because we plan to buy over 200 of them in a short time. So, the volumes make it expensive. Apart from 200+ Rafales, there is a high chance the IAF will purchase 100-150 Gripen NGs/F-16s/SH, whoever wins the second MMRCA program. EFT's in it too, but has no chance. There will be parallel production lines.

But let's avoid what India is doing, you can follow the Rafale thread for more information. I just want the topic to stay on what Pakistan is up to in order to challenge the IAF's massive buildup. I want a genuine discussion.

You are wrongly informed. You are no authority on Pakistan related matters. No doubt, the Su-35 is available to Pakistan and talks are ongoing. We haven't yet heard of talks being stalled or ended. The Russians have confirmed they are in talks with Pakistan so you need to stop sowing confusion.

Secondly, the Chinese have already offered Pakistan a more advanced version of the initial J-10A fighter. Pakistan could today place an order and this fighter has been in the making for years now. The Chinese would supply the fighters in a blink of an eye. Even with a soft loan scheme and what not.

Pakistan is waiting for India to make their final moves. Once that has been done and talks on our side concluded with the aforementioned parties, we will eventually hear what the outcome will be. Until then, you just wait. We are in no hurry to make hasty and ludicrously expensive decisions which will come to haunt us badly.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Price negotiations on the Rafale??

That was a joke, right? It's like a sabzi bazaar out there! Haggling like old women for a bargain. Jeeez!

LOL Beta apna or apni country ka mazaq ura rhy ho French is giving 36 Rafales to India with the Price tag of $12 Billion but India is Negotiating the Price to $8.8 Billion

Do some research before doing brain fart