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Tata Deal With Lockheed Martin effect on PAF F16 fleet

For anything besides total war, the PAF is equipped to the bare minimum and can deal with the IAF(they are facing other seconday and tertiary issues not related to equipment always which one never hears about but are critical to
War fighting )

For anything else, 1 week is the PAF's effective operation capability.

A nation of which only 15% are counted as taxable income people out lf which only 5% of middle class pays tax.. good luck finding money.

Come on sir g.. PAF tested Rafales PAF tested Euro fighters PAF tested Mirage 2000 but yet they stick with F-16's for so long even today PAF tried till last to buy more F-16's even bought 2nd hand from Jordan...

When there's a will there's a way
If PAF gonna sign the deal today they gonna have to pay it in years like 4 5 6 years look at the deal of Indian Rafales they will get all the Rafales till 2022 they gonna pay in interval
it's not like that ok the deal is signed here are your $12 Billion
 
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Come on sir g.. PAF tested Rafales PAF tested Euro fighters PAF tested Mirage 2000 but yet they stick with F-16's for so long even today PAF tried till last to buy more F-16's even bought 2nd hand from Jordan...

When there's a will there's a way
If PAF gonna sign the deal today they gonna have to pay it in years like 4 5 6 years look at the deal of Indian Rafales they will get all the Rafales till 2022 they gonna pay in interval
it's not like that ok the deal is signed here are your $12 Billion
Its not a car lease, there are other considerations involved as well.
 
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Come on sir g.. PAF tested Rafales PAF tested Euro fighters PAF tested Mirage 2000 but yet they stick with F-16's for so long even today PAF tried till last to buy more F-16's even bought 2nd hand from Jordan...

When there's a will there's a way
If PAF gonna sign the deal today they gonna have to pay it in years like 4 5 6 years look at the deal of Indian Rafales they will get all the Rafales till 2022 they gonna pay in interval
it's not like that ok the deal is signed here are your $12 Billion
The issue isn't Pakistan's ability to pay installments, but the fact that its adversary will always be hounding its sellers with bigger carrots. In isolation, Pakistan could enter multi-billion dollar deals with annual payments, but it can't stop India from prying those same sellers away with deals worth 2-3 times whatever Pakistan can offer (and that too with flexible financial terms).

The countries willing to put up with Pakistan tend to be those that (1) don't like India (e.g. China), (2) did not do well in the Indian market (e.g. South Africa) and (3) for some reason like Pakistan a lot (e.g. Turkey). Consider the TFX, while a Western fighter to the core, Turkey's leverage over the matter has made it a factor for the PAF to examine with seriousness.

If Saab were to offer a next-gen fighter that would be perfect for the PAF, then watch India hound the PAF with an offer 2-3 times bigger than whatever the PAF offers Saab.
 
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Guys I have heard this deal is only between Tata and Lockheed

The Iaf will make the final decision if they want to induct either the block 70 or the gripen ng

There is also the option to buy additional batch of rafales if the French set up a new production line.

In other words paf may not have to ditch their much vaunted f16 fleet. If India chooses gripen ng or more rafales

One crucial point I don't see Russia winning future combat plane deals in India

Mki maybe the last they are suffering from serious lack of investment

Coming back to PAF I'm surprised they haven't made a decision to counter the pending arrival.of rafales as yet.

If they do not buy block 52 due to cost then they we I'll.not be buying Euro canards either Ss they cost 50% more the falcons .

The J31.is S exciting project but miles away from.entering even ioc no way us war ready before ten more years.

This leaves struggling Russia to sell so,35 or China the J10c but as Oscar pointed out way inferior to block 70 and rafale
 
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The issue isn't Pakistan's ability to pay installments, but the fact that its adversary will always be hounding its sellers with bigger carrots. In isolation, Pakistan could enter multi-billion dollar deals with annual payments, but it can't stop India from prying those same sellers away with deals worth 2-3 times whatever Pakistan can offer (and that too with flexible financial terms).

The countries willing to put up with Pakistan tend to be those that (1) don't like India (e.g. China), (2) did not do well in the Indian market (e.g. South Africa) and (3) for some reason like Pakistan a lot (e.g. Turkey). Consider the TFX, while a Western fighter to the core, Turkey's leverage over the matter has made it a factor for the PAF to examine with seriousness.

If Saab were to offer a next-gen fighter that would be perfect for the PAF, then watch India hound the PAF with an offer 2-3 times bigger than whatever the PAF offers Saab.

India hounding sellers with a bigger deal visaviz Pak is a little misplaced because India makes bigger deals with countries for its own requirements. Now that acts as a leverage against Pak is a different story.

And also always, money is not the case or for that matter financial clout.

Political tradecraft is about what you give and how you give.

Pak has many, in fact had many but lost it due to her own incompetency.
 
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US is very much kind with India now a days.
F16 assembly line.
Predator Drones sale.

Both are big ticket for India

While for Pakistan

Bill for cancelling Non NATO Allies Status
Bill to reduce compensation Aid to Pakistan
Trying to increase Drones attack inside Pakistan territory

As usual untrustworthy friend.
 
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Guys I have heard this deal is only between Tata and Lockheed

The Iaf will make the final decision if they want to induct either the block 70 or the gripen ng

There is also the option to buy additional batch of rafales if the French set up a new production line.

In other words paf may not have to ditch their much vaunted f16 fleet. If India chooses gripen ng or more rafales

One crucial point I don't see Russia winning future combat plane deals in India

Mki maybe the last they are suffering from serious lack of investment

Coming back to PAF I'm surprised they haven't made a decision to counter the pending arrival.of rafales as yet.

If they do not buy block 52 due to cost then they we I'll.not be buying Euro canards either Ss they cost 50% more the falcons .

The J31.is S exciting project but miles away from.entering even ioc no way us war ready before ten more years.

This leaves struggling Russia to sell so,35 or China the J10c but as Oscar pointed out way inferior to block 70 and rafale
Per your logic that China and Pakistan shall surrender to India immediately.:argh:

That is a pic of J10B, which the design freeze in 2007, ten years ago. Eyes on the undergoing J10D.
J10B's production had been suspended. Now we are churning out J10c.

I don't want to see India made F16 wreck the long term positive track record of F-sola legacy.
 
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Why the F-16 deal isn’t a game changer
If realized, the F-16 deal will bring some jobs but nothing more—no market, no cutting-edge technology, and certainly no leverage against Pakistan

f16-k3dE--621x414@LiveMint.jpg

The downside of the deal, for India, is that by some estimates, less than 40% of the F-16 is actually Lockheed Martin technology. Photo: Bloomberg
The brouhaha over the recent deal between Tata Advanced Systems Ltd and US aircraft major Lockheed Martin for the manufacture of the F-16 fighter jet in India is really just much ado about nothing. A closer examination of the production system of the F-16, which is one of the most globalized fighters ever made, shows that even if this deal if ever realized, it would at best improve the metallurgy standards of the Tatas, but add little in terms of serious technology transfer, market penetration, or denial of strategic space to Pakistan.

The wording of the deal which was signed at the Paris Air Show is very clear—it states only the “intent to partner together to meet India’s Make-in-India requirement through the establishment of an F-16 production line in India”. The most obvious takeaway from this is that the deal is not a firm agreement to manufacture the F-16 in India, but only a letter of intent to assemble the plane in India if and when the Indian Air Force (IAF) chooses that platform.

Portrayals in the commentariat (mostly through omission of the operative paragraphs of the deal) that this deal will result in the transfer of the entire F-16 production line to India, irrespective of the IAF’s choice, are plain wrong. Equally, the question is: can any manufacturer win the Indian single-engine aircraft contest without ensuring local production? The answer is a resounding no. So, is this agreement a big deal at all? Yes, but for a different set of reasons.

The F-16 is one of the most remarkable fighters of the last century. When it started out, it was a triumph of globalization—sourcing parts from across the width and breadth of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) and other major non-Nato US allies.

The brilliance of this was that even though it started off as a US national programme, it effectively became the national fighter of a cluster of five northern European countries, of Turkey, Israel and South Korea—with each cluster heavily buying into the production and supply chains. Each of the companies buying in benefitted from the massive economies of scale in a production run of over 4,600 units as well as from being able to innovate follow-on sub-systems that were incorporated into the several upgrades that the F-16 has seen. In effect, what the F-16 did was to spawn a global production and supply chain of sub-systems manufacturers, that was highly innovative but still flexible enough to be highly adaptive and competitive.

The downside of this, for India, is that by some estimates, less than 40% of the F-16 is actually Lockheed technology. The remaining 60% is proprietary technology owned by hundreds of sub-systems manufacturers spread across the globe. This means that about 60% of the F-16 technology remains unavailable to India unless its signs deals with each of the hundreds and possibly thousands of sub-component manufacturers, some of whom are based in countries like Turkey that are less than enthusiastic about India.

The F-16 engine, for example, belongs to another US company: General Electric. Its core crystal-blade technology is off limits to even the closest US allies. Also, given the slow growth of new engines globally and considering that India’s stated aim is to become a competitor, it hardly suits GE’s business interests to transfer such technology to India.

There are other problems as well. For example, all F-16 sensors and datalinks come under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) which restricts the technology of US crown jewels from being given to other countries. This could be anywhere between 10-20% of the total F-16 technology, but it is this 10% that holds the key to 90% of the combat effectiveness of the F-16 platform.

Take for instance the Link-16 data system. It is a small, ugly set of boxes, but it is this which has ensured that the F-16 has been able to shoot down every Eastern Bloc (Russia and China) fighter jet it has encountered. This system increases the situational awareness of the pilot and has been key to the supremacy of Western electronics, which have decisively trumped an Eastern focus on kinetics.

In short, while the GE engine is an important component of the F-16’s combat effectiveness, the Link-16 is the real war winner, and neither are on offer to India—except for assembly purposes.

One of the most egregious compromises with the truth as far as the F-16 India saga goes is that purchasing the plane will mean India can effectively cripple the Pakistani F-16 fleet by controlling the supply of spare parts. The F-16 block 70 being sold to India is a vastly different beast from the F-16 block 50 sold to Pakistan. This means that the supplier chain India will get will be different from the supplier chain that Pakistan has access to. Indeed, the globalized supplier and manufacturer chain means that Pakistan’s tap can never be turned off.

That said, make no mistake: the F-16 is a brilliant plane. Yes, it is at the end of its life cycle but India, which isn’t as technologically advanced as the US, should be able to easily absorb whatever technology it gets from the deal. However, prospects for further external sale and secondary maintenance contracts are non-existent given that the F-16 best exemplifies an anti-monopoly product. In the end, India gets a superb fighter and a few thousand jobs but nothing more—not a monopoly, not a market, not innovation, not cutting-edge war-winning technology and, certainly, not “strategic autonomy”.

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra is senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies.
 
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The issue isn't Pakistan's ability to pay installments, but the fact that its adversary will always be hounding its sellers with bigger carrots. In isolation, Pakistan could enter multi-billion dollar deals with annual payments, but it can't stop India from prying those same sellers away with deals worth 2-3 times whatever Pakistan can offer (and that too with flexible financial terms).

The countries willing to put up with Pakistan tend to be those that (1) don't like India (e.g. China), (2) did not do well in the Indian market (e.g. South Africa) and (3) for some reason like Pakistan a lot (e.g. Turkey). Consider the TFX, while a Western fighter to the core, Turkey's leverage over the matter has made it a factor for the PAF to examine with seriousness.

If Saab were to offer a next-gen fighter that would be perfect for the PAF, then watch India hound the PAF with an offer 2-3 times bigger than whatever the PAF offers Saab.

We can buy Planes from China can't we India wont go after Chinese
also we can participate in TAI TFX
we can even get Euro Fighter can't we India will not gonna buy everything from every where

Its not a car lease, there are other considerations involved as well.

We can Get Soft loans from China in buying J-10 and F-16's will be produced in India in 2021 i think we can get 2 3 squads till 2024 easily
 
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We can Get Soft loans from China in buying J-10 and F-16's will be produced in India in 2021 i think we can get 2 3 squads till 2024 easily

Here is the timeline for India's Single Engine Fighter for which F-16s and Gripens are competing

1) Strategic Partnership (SP) policy has already been finalized in 2017

2) Vendors to pick their Indian partners by end of 2017 based on SP policy

3) RFP would be issued in 2018 for 200 Jets

4) Proposals would be submitted by the vendors in 2019

5) Limited trials would be completed in 2020

6) Vendor selection would be done in 2021

7) Negotiations would be completed and contract would be signed in 2022

8) First fighter would be inducted in 2024-25
 
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Here is the timeline for India's Single Engine Fighter for which F-16s and Gripens are competing

1) Strategic Partnership (SP) policy has already been finalized in 2017

2) Vendors to pick their Indian partners by end of 2017 based on SP policy

3) RFP would be issued in 2018 for 200 Jets

4) Proposals would be submitted by the vendors in 2019

5) Limited trials would be completed in 2020

6) Vendor selection would be done in 2021

7) Negotiations would be completed and contract would be signed in 2022

8) First fighter would be inducted in 2024-25

yupe that's is what i'm saying we have ample time to counter the threats of F-16's or Gripen by investing in TAI TFX J-31 or Planes from China like J-10 etc
 
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-_- those are 5th generation fighters that even china hasn't learned to reverse engineer perfectly . a quick google search showed the Indian squadron not only have superior jets , they out number Pakistan 3:1 . also you failed to take into account by the time the chinese do decide to sell 5th gen to pakistan, India will be forced to buy PAKFA from russia

Ok they didn't learned to reverse engineering perfectly at least they are trying till 2024-25 J-31 will be ready for sure

India is a Big country having multiple enemies Example China and Pakistan while Pakistan has one only India atm
India will throw all it's assets to Pakistan in war

PAKFA pfffft first pay $7 Billion in further development of PAKFA....

China also has J-20 almost ready does that forces India to Buy PAKFA?? isn't China enemy now??
 
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PAF will be going for China full time in the near future. They have already started educating themselves about Chinese strategies for dealing with technologically superior US air Force and navy.
A serving guy told me this.
 
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