Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[hocuspocush]

JF17's engine cannot give enough power to support a big radar nor a Bigger radar can be fitted in its nose. the radar deficiency against su30 will be covered by AWACs

It's not only about radar and range. One should also consider the state of the art KNIRTI L005S Sorbtsiya-S mid/high band defensive radar jammer. It is carried in wingtip pods. Unlike competing Western designs, this system uses a steerable mainlobe to maximise the Jam/Signal ratio at the threat emitter. The design uses a wideband phased array and dielectric lens arrangement (KNIRTI).

Refer: ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

This is a much more effective radar jamming pod as it has steerable mainlobe which maximizes the jam signal towards the threat.


Could you please throw some light on the jammer available on thunder? I checked the site : xxx.jf-17.com/ but couldn't find anything related to jamming pods.

 

[mean_bird]

WRONG ! ! !

"Under a parallel plan the IAF plans to upgrade its 52 French made Dassault Mirage 2000H fighters. India is currently in the final stage negotiating the 1.5-billion euro program with Thales and Dassault. Officials said, the upgrade of the Mirage 2000s will begin by June. "

Refer: defense-update.com/newscast/0307/news/140307_mig29.htm

What exactly did you find "wrong" in my post?

I said 20 million per plane which amounts to around 1billion. If you say it is 1.5 billion then its even costlier. Either way, far from the 1.5 million which I contradicted.

India plans 1 billion euro Mirage upgrade - India - The Times of India

Mean_bird, please don't claim as you wish. Always, refer the links from where you are posting otherwise please refrain from stating false facts.

I don't google about something 2 mins before posting. My knowledge is collected over time and its impossible to maintain a reference list of all the books, journals,newspapers,airforce magazines that I have read to date.


And both your links, thaindians.com (a forum) and defense-update.com, an online defense website with no print publication, is not something I would call credible.

Please contradict the "false facts" in my post.

Sorry off topic, but can you tell me how to thank posts from others.

Thanks

click on the "thumbs up" sign at the bottom right of each post, just next to the quote button.

 

[MZUBAIR]

^^^ ok lots of doubts have been cleared ....and about the weponization part ...i asked american representatives at the raytheon stall in aero india 09....weather american weapons can be used on russian platform ....they flatly said ....the competition is still underway and we are not at liberty to discuss that with the general public . but the gripen guys openly stated we will do whatever india requests ...any weapon for that matter irrespective of the origin can be used on the gripen ,...using an a2a missile is not that simple the country which developed the weapon and the delivery platform must agree upon it because the weapons are linked to the mission computer and if its a BVR it should also be linked to the radar ...so yes this looks like a mess ..but will it happen ...if yes ,please can you provide any official indication on this matter...ok coming to the point

Indian MRCA deal which could surely bring a new chapter in IAF. Any country can give any kind of support with 10Billion $ deal.

will the americans allow their weapons to be integrated on a chinese platform ....if yes any news on it .....yes the jf-17 CAN carry american weapons BUT will the americans allow for the integration ...this remains the only MAJOR QUESTION on my mind....technical part satisfied me ...but i may have to disagree upon some of your points

I guerss they will never like it, but I think permission is not necessary as Pakistan have paid for those weapons, besides that Pakistan Air Weapons Complex (AWC) is also manufacturing F-16, JF17, Mirage 3,5 , F7 weapons.

Pakistan have started mess production of JF-17 since feb 2009, Its impossible to imagine that jets are being developed without avoinics and weapons. I already said chinees avionics and weapons are not bad as the western world think. They can strongly compete with them.

Well, may be its hard for me to explain this.
Well Chinees are expert in re-engineering. They have SU-30 and other old russian fighters in their fleet and its not difficult for them to study and reengineer stuff.
Chinees weapons are surely like westerns/Russians

EDIT

india has mirages and the mig-29....presently the migs electronics are not up-to date but it is going to change soon,but aerodynamically they are just as lethal as the sukhoi ..and the mirages are good ...but IF the upgrades are finalized they will be more lethal

Yes they can be lithel, but I think after 2015 every one wuld go for stealthy fighter of 5th generation.

Pakistan planned 2015 PAF fleet.

Chengdu FC-20 total 36
Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D Block52 total 18
Lockheed Martin F-16AM/BM total 46
PAC JF-17 Thunder total 250 Multi-Role
Chengdu F-7PG/T Skybolt-G total 50 Multi-Role
Dassault Mirage ROSE Upgrade total 80

PAF will look for 5th generation after 2015.

So, I think upgradation of old generation (4th or below 4th) fighters will be valueless and waistage of money.

i am a bit out of date on the engine issue ..can you please provide me more information with that ..is it a direct sale ...or coming through china ....are the russians ok with it, when are they coming ....some news article related to it

China has purchased RD engines for JF-17 from Russia and gicen to Pakistan. Ofcourse they are coiming to Pakistan through China.

There are some more info abt JF-17
info abt jf17_thunder

yes i agree that chinese product are influence of the russians ....but the MAIN reason for the world to discredit them is for the fact that chinese are very secretive about it ..if they were more open in and transperent in their showcasing of their products the world might know their true potential ...what ever it may be

Agree, but there are some of their own remarkable inventions, like their frigates, sumarines, Missels etc.

 

[hocuspocush]

What exactly did you find "wrong" in my post?

I said 20 million per plane which amounts to around 1billion. If you say it is 1.5 billion then its even costlier. Either way, far from the 1.5 million which I contradicted.

I can throw a dozen more links which indicates the deal to be worth 1.5 Billion. However, we will only know once it is finalized.

I don't google about something 2 mins before posting. My knowledge is collected over time and its impossible to maintain a reference list of all the books, journals,newspapers,airforce magazines that I have read to date.


And both your links, thaindians.com (a forum) and defense-update.com, an online defense website with no print publication, is not something I would call credible.

Please contradict the "false facts" in my post.

Atleast, I don't blindly go ahead and start contradicting people on the forum till the time I confirm it with online news articles.

It's good that you have accrued knowledge over time, but with that kind of experience, you should always refer your source as it has been repeated time and again in this thread. I will only believe which is credible and has been backed by a news article.

I don't agree that unless a news article is in the print publication, it is not credit worthy.

However, in regards to your post, I take my words back as I read wrong figures. I'm not one of those who blindly contradict with no facts/figures. What's right is right and wrong is wrong.

 

[hj786]

It's not only about radar and range. One should also consider the state of the art KNIRTI L005S Sorbtsiya-S mid/high band defensive radar jammer. It is carried in wingtip pods. Unlike competing Western designs, this system uses a steerable mainlobe to maximise the Jam/Signal ratio at the threat emitter. The design uses a wideband phased array and dielectric lens arrangement (KNIRTI).

Refer: ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

This is a much more effective radar jamming pod as it has steerable mainlobe which maximizes the jam signal towards the threat.


Could you please throw some light on the jammer available on thunder? I checked the site : xxx.jf-17.com/ but couldn't find anything related to jamming pods.

Big deal, even JF-17's "low-tech Chinese" EW system can do that.

Grande Strategy: A Light Sabre for the Third World: The FC-1 / JF-17

The RWR is of note in that it is not only part of an integrated system, but also gives 360 degree range for missile approaching warning system with infra-red and ultra-violet spectrum detecting with a detection range of > 20km. It can not only detect but also track and position approaching missiles. A computer controlled infrared interference system, calculates the right timing to release countermeasures. A “focused interference system”, that can directionally beam energy is included and creates the same impact as a large electronic warfare airplane in that particular direction.

FC-1 Prototype 04: the Saga Continues - Page 5 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Post number 124.

Find this in PDF, by Johndull.
Quite impressive development, but don't know how true this article is:
To Johndull, hopefully you don't mind I post your work here.

Recently a chinese megazine called Ordnance Industry Science Technology pulished an article that provided certain detailed information regarding JF-17 / FC-1 avionics. Given the fact that the megazine was published by an organization with military background, it seems the info is very creditable to me.

since I have been surfing this site for years and have limited contribution thus far, I try my best to summarize the points here. However, I was not trained in aviation, and English is not my native language either, I am not familiar with some special jargons ... ...

Reasons for changes (improvement over the opriginal designs / specs)

- initially specs were not as advanced as it is now for the cost reason. However, the US surdenly decided to sell more advanced F-16s to PAK aiming to kill JF-17/FC-1 project
- the project team was forced to improve the specs and make it happen at prototype 04, and they did.

very advanced cockpit
- control pannel is consisted by 3 color screens (20.3cm x 20.3 cm) only, all information is processed and displayed on them. the functions of each one is exchangeable. brightness & contrast can be adjusted either automatically or manually. each of the screen can be re-defined.
- HUD is also state-of-the-art. many image / infomation can be displayed at the same time.
- HUD is better than that of the latest su-30 for the reason that JF-17/FC-1 can display both raw signal as well as processed infomation (i.e. more meaningfull) whereas su-30 displays, by and large, raw signals directly.

HOTAS Control

Intelligence Avionics
- avionics system is all digital and fully integrated
- distributed structure, two independent but exchangeable (can back-up each other) STD-MTL-1553B data buses connected all equipment, plus two powerful control computers (also can back-up each other). Each computer controls one data bus
- only very recent airplanes such as F-16 E/F have similar structure and powerful computers

- Radar. initially Pak wanted to use grifo ones (Grifo-S2000). However, Chinese one offers key advantages such as compatibility with Chinese weapon systems
- Radar has multiple modes, such as A2A (both BVR & close), air to ground, air to sea, etcs with strong anti-interference capacity.
- it can handle > 40 targets, tracking 10 of them and guiding 2 BVR missiles to attack 2 of them at the same time
- the detecting range for a typical air target of RC 3 square metter is > 75 km; looking down range is > 45 km; range for sea target is > 135 km
- it has digital map, and is going to have 3D digital map.

- robust & advanced electronic warfare system
- has all standard electronic warfare systems, such as radar warning, nissile approaching warning, etcs.
- the computer can store more than 300 existing radar signals for identification, and actually already stored more than 100 known radar signal partens
- 360 degree range for missile approaching warning system with both infra-red & ultra-violet spectrum detecting, very sensitive to "afterburn" of missiles and the detecting range is > 20km. one detecting sensor in the tail and two at the front. moreover, it can provide certain capacity of tracking and positioning the approaching missile.

- JF-17 / FC-1 has a computer controlled infra-red interference bullet (missile?) system, which automatically calculate the right timing (based on the rsult of detecting system) to release the interference bullets to maximaze the impact. Only recently released airplanes such as F-22 / Rafale have such system. Even F-18E/F and F-16 E/F need further upgrading to acquire such capacity.

- JF-17 also has an "focused interference system", which can beam the enegy on one direction (i.e. attacking missile's guiding system) to distrub it. By doing this, a small equipment can have the same impact as a large electronic warfare airplane in that particular direction. Initially FJ-17 / Fc-1 did not have this system. However, in view of the fact that Pak's potential enemy is IAF equiped with Su-30 & R-77 missiles, CAC add this system into the plane. As of today, non india airplane has such system nor do PAk's f-16s. (hj786 note - this article is from ~2006 or earlier)

- JF-17 has two communication radios. one of them has the capacity for data link, receiving data from either ground control center or AWACS.
- all equipment has auto-detection function, i.e. at the time of maintanance, plug in a notebook computer and all working parameters can de displayed in the computer

- weaponary system is designed to be compatible with both western system (i.e. supporting MIL-STD-1760 data bus) and russia system (of course china system as well). at present, its standard missiles are PL-9C for close fight and SD-10 for BVR. However, it also support AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F etcs
- every weapon point has the data bus interface, i.e. each point can carry guided weapons.
- for ground attacking weapon, already demonstrated laser guided bombs, it is going to have A2G missles.


OK. that is the summary of the article for your information.

Focused interference EW system is most likely to be located in the JF-17's tail fin. There is some kind of fairing structure at the tip of the fin that was not present on the initial prototypes. Something interesting to note - other aircraft that have a tail fin fairing:
- Rafale
- Mirage 2000
- Blackburn Buccaneer (affectionately nicknamed the "Bucc", this British aircraft is widely believed to be one of the best low-level tactical strike bombers ever designed.)
The tail fin fairing position is supposed to give the best 360 degree coverage when the aircraft is flying a low level mission, hugging the terrain. Who said the JF-17 won't be used for strike missions again?

 

[MZUBAIR]

ANY BVR ....comparable to SD-10 or better missiles

The following link gives u all answers abt JF-17.

Introduction & History
Characteristics of Note on the FC-1
EW Suite (Some thing which is not in SU-30)
Cockpit
Diverterless Inlets
Some Less Noted Characteristics of the FC-1

The KLJ-7 radar has multiple modes and can handle greater than 40 targets, tracking 10 of them and guiding 4 BVR missiles to attack 4 of them at the same time. The detecting range for a typical air target of RCS 3 square meter is > 75 km; look-down-shoot-down range is > 45 km; range for sea target is > 135 km

The FC-1’s computer has the capacity to store 300 existing radar signals for identification

Maneuverability and Handling
(Chk out the video in this section, JF-17 vs F-16)

Recent Improvements Analysis

(Chk this point in the article)
The basic reason for the large scale changes to the FC-1 has been that Pakistan found her requirements going up, given the new Indian military buildup, with Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000s being fielded in numbers. Secondly, The US decision to sell advanced F-16s to Pakistan. Both these factors forced the FC-1 project team to improve the FC-1 to stay relevant.

LGBs for the FC-1
Future Modernization Roadmap
Market viability
A Comparison of the FC-1 / J-10 Pairing

A Light Sabre for the Third World: The FC-1 / JF-17

 

[Haanzo]

i beg you please provide a chinese source or atleast a source where the author ha previous knowledge of the field he is writing in

People to look for & Credits

This article would not have been possible without the contribution of some very knowledgeable people, who have given their time to explaining them to us. Chief amongst these individuals is crobato. Without crobato's vast knowldege and notable analytical skills on the FC-1 (and for that matter anything from ancient Chinese blades to modern military aviation), I definitely would never have been able to write half the issues given in this article. I would also like to name a dozen other individuals who deserve special mention, and who one as a Chinese / Pakistani aviation news and analysis informed follower should watch out for. These are given below, in alphabetical order. These fine gentlemen can be found at keypublishing, pakdef, sinodefenceforum or china-defense, amongst other forums.

Bryan C

Crobato

Deino

FarooqHafeez

Fighting Falcon

GoldenDragon

Kaduna2003

Khanasifm

Munir

Pshamim

Pinko

Plawolf

Rommel

Usman

vikasrehman

how would pakistanis react here if i posted an article about the LCA on a blog quoting prominent memebers on BHARAT RAKSHAK....or NDR ...come on mate arent there any journalists like ajay shukla's BROAD SWORD or shiv aroors LIVEFIST.....who actually interview people work on the project......the problem in your source is the people he has mentioned ....they are just handles found on sites like ...yes they may be aeronautical engineers in real life but if they were so the author could have mentioned ...the person is related to the project ...or he is a defence analyst......come on please understand what i say ....OFFICIAL SOURCES PLEASE

 

[Super Falcon]

for me PAF and PN official are nuts

 

[Arsalan]

for MUZBAIR

can you please elaborate the points marked in blue!! especiall the
future modernization roadmap and the market viaability!
can you please provide there links!!

regards!

 

[Haanzo]

the points markde in blue!! especiall the
future modernization roadmap and the market viaability!
can you please provide there links!!

regards!

check the link at the end of his post ..it has everything

 

[Arsalan]

check the link at the end of his post ..it has everything

opss thanks!

 

[Arsalan]

for me PAF and PN official are nuts

can you back up this ignorant statement of yours! sitting at net, signed in a forum and making or speculating deals is a different think and the real facts and groung realities are altogether different!
a senior member like you surely knows more about this fact sir and should try to be carefull while posting at the forum!
they deserve our respect sir!
sorry if you find my post offensive but i have just said what i felt after reading your post


regards!

 

[Gucci Juice]

i just realised something...

if m2k upgrade costs 20 mil per a/c for just a bunch of new avionics, a radar and an engine...

how is it possible that jf-17 block 2 will have french systems but still cost the same?

i mean upgrading that mirage costs more than 1 jf-17.

even if u minus the engine that's still 15 million per a/c

if u minus radar+engine that's 10 million per a/c for just avionics

oh and how will pac produce 40-50 jf-17s per year? because that's how many u need to get 250 by 2015

 

[maverick2009]

Gucci Juice those nos 250 JETS by 2015 are pure speculation.

Even the RAF where i live can only procure Typhoons at approx 15 fighters per year.

To induct more than 1 Squadron a year,, Brand new plane,, New pilots,, Workshops for support, ground crew and quite simply the COST is almost impossible.

eg. China has inducted 100 J10s since 2004
France has inducted 40 Rafale since 2005 and UK Typhoons around 50 in 5 years.. These are super rich nations inducting trheir own built fighters...

India has barely inducted 100 flankers su30mki in 7 years.

I remember reading a report by ACM Tanvir who predicted that PAF would have 50 JF17 by 2010-2011.. The Artcile was an interview in Air Forces Monthly..

Thus Far we know for certain PAF has 8 prototypes of JF17 FOR IOC by this year end.

We Also know PAF has ordered 42 additional JF17 in version block 1 ie Russian engine & Chinease KLJ radar.

PAF will order block 2 only when either a western engine has been intergrated or the chinease engine meets PAFs minimum paremeters. This could take several years.

 

[mean_bird]

PAF will order block 2 only when either a western engine has been intergrated or the chinease engine meets PAFs minimum paremeters. This could take several years.

How did you come about that conclusion?