Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[mean_bird]

ANY BVR ....comparable to SD-10 or better missiles

What kind of a question is that? We all know PAF has not had any BVR (or atleast US BVR) till now so the question of integrating a US BVR on Chinese aircraft doesn't arise.

What will happen in future? Only time will tell.

Personally, I do not think PAF has even asked US to allow its missiles to be integrated, since all we want is get rid of US-specific material. PAF is looking towards SD-10, MICA, and/or R-Darter missiles. PAF chief has time and again mentioned they will be going for a 5th gen. WVRAAM.

I think the amount of US weapons (if any) will depend on the radar. I personally believe we "might" see other weapons but not AAMs, but we I also believe we will see equal or better AAMs from non-US sources like those from Denel, and Meteor in future. China is also making their next gen Ramjet based missiles.

 

[Gucci Juice]

i think u should change thread to jf-17, j-10, and f-16 vs mki, mrca, lca, mig-29, and mirage 2000.

or even better

future paf vs future iaf

here's my estimate of future fleets

2020~
paf
-300 jf-17
-100 j-10
-60 f-16

iaf
-230 mki
-126 mrca(possibly increased to 200)
-100 lca
-100 mig-29
-50 mirage 2000
-20 paf-fa

i think with new government they will order either superhornet or mig-35.

ef=too expensive
rafael=out
gripen=like lca
f-16=paf has it

 

[Super Falcon]

i think JF 17 lacks a radar against SU 30 because radar of SU has bigger range than JF 17 so SU can have a first lock on to Jf 17 i think PAF should enhace the capability of Jf 17 it will make Jf 17 all together a different fighter jet

 

[Owais]

i think JF 17 lacks a radar against SU 30 because radar of SU has bigger range than JF 17 so SU can have a first lock on to Jf 17 i think PAF should enhace the capability of Jf 17 it will make Jf 17 all together a different fighter jet

JF17's engine cannot give enough power to support a big radar nor a Bigger radar can be fitted in its nose. the radar deficiency against su30 will be covered by AWACs

 

[Manticore]

as the jf17s would be phased out from2025 anyway, i dont think paf would take the no.s to 300... paf would only keep block 3 jf17s and take the no. of j10s to 200, perhaps come up with2 blocks of j10.[4.6/4.8 gen].. in this way we wont see a major deficit in paf inventoery , when all of a sudden jf17s become absolete.
any comments..
i would definately like some paf officials to look into this point.

 

[Manticore]

''-126 mrca(possibly increased to 200)
-100 lca
-100 mig-29
-50 mirage 2000''

*4 kind of mrcas ?
*including lca?
*that too after 15 years from now with old airframes of m2k and mig29?
*you could have said 100 lca or 80 mrca[f-18]

 

[Zarbe Momin]

If PAF has better radar (Target detection and Lock on capability) and better BVR missel then SU-30 and JF-17 have 1:1 chance.

 

[hj786]

If PAF has better radar (Target detection and Lock on capability) and better BVR missel then SU-30 and JF-17 have 1:1 chance.

Brother, we have no idea about the chance. It could be 100:1 in favour of MKI. It just depends on the missiles and counter-measures. It isn't really MKI v JF-17.

It's MKI's missiles and counter-measures v JF-17's missiles and counter-measures.
Not one single poster here, Pakistani Indian or otherwise, knows anything important about either plane's missiles or its counter-measures, except maybe Sirs MuradK, X-man, PShammim. From what I have read in the posts by Sir MuradK, we have been mislead about the JF's performance figures as well as the electronics inside it.

That's why, like PAFAce said, we should let this stupid trash-fest thread die. It really is pointless. The MKI has the advantage on paper and the trolls think that means it is an F-22.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Brother, we have no idea about the chance. It could be 100:1 in favour of MKI. It just depends on the missiles and counter-measures. It isn't really MKI v JF-17.

It's MKI's missiles and counter-measures v JF-17's missiles and counter-measures.
Not one single poster here, Pakistani Indian or otherwise, knows anything important about either plane's missiles or its counter-measures, except maybe Sirs MuradK, X-man, PShammim. From what I have read in the posts by Sir MuradK, we have been mislead about the JF's performance figures as well as the electronics inside it.

That's why, like PAFAce said, we should let this stupid trash-fest thread die. It really is pointless. The MKI has the advantage on paper and the trolls think that means it is an F-22.

Thats exactly what i wanted to say, we have been completely misled about the performance of JF17 by PAF because they want our enemies to underestimate this beauty. Many so called analysts have claimed that JF17 is an improved version of MIG21, but in reality its design is based on our F16 Block 15's. The greatest asset that PAF has is its secrecy, on paper we have a fleet full of planes such as Mirage III/V, MIG21 and F16 Block15's. But if you go in detail and study them closely, things are not as black and white as they are made out to be. When MIG21 were upgraded, the Indians were claiming that it will be able to knock out F16. According to that logic shouldnt IAF be roaming all over Pakistan's airspace , they tried to engage in misadventure but were thoroughly shown the door. Hats off to PAF for keeping our skies safe

 

[sancho]

Good question. If they went from copied J6 to J10 (or maybe JXX) in two decades... With millions of well qualified people (import and internal and inpressive spying) they will get a lot further then we expect in the next few years. The most difficult is the high performance jet engine and even that is expected to be mastered in 2014... Maybe that explains the delivery date for PAF cause the might not want AL31...

About the avionics... Just compare F7PG cockpit with JF17... I bet there a not many fighterjets that have that for that price... IRST is in development. AESA radars... New long range AAM's etc etc...

So what you saying is that China improved their capabilities in the last decades very fast and that's why J10 will have better techs then Mki right?
As far as I know at the moment (and you are welcome to correct me) the J10 will have AL 31 engine but without TVC and maybe the Zhuk ME PESA radar right (China is working on an own radar and engine that are not ready yet)?
The Mki also has the AL 31 with 2D TVC and will get AL 41 with 3D TVC and SC capabilities which are already reported on Su 35 with an early version of that engine. The PESA radar Mki has is superior to the Zhuk ME and it will get AESA radar with the MLU, most probably the same that Pak Fa/FGFA will have. These are not only my wishes, but facts that were reported severall times related to Mki.
So if you say it will have better techs then these, I would be very interested to hear what techs that will be.

Let me alter the question. Why do you expect that they will be not top economy or top fighterjet technology producers?

Interesting what all you found out by reading such a simple sentence like

Can you explain what?

I just asked what techs this will be, cause it sounds like you have more than just some guesses.

 

[sancho]

''-126 mrca(possibly increased to 200)
-100 lca
-100 mig-29
-50 mirage 2000''

*4 kind of mrcas ?
*including lca?
*that too after 15 years from now with old airframes of m2k and mig29?
*you could have said 100 lca or 80 mrca[f-18]

He is not so wrong, Mig 29 (60 - 70 not 100) will be upgraded to stay in service till 2020/25 and might be replaced by Pak Fa/FGFA. Reports said that the upgrade includes airframe overhaul, new engine, radar and added BVR combat capabilities (R77 missiles). Dassault makes an offer to upgrade around 50 Mirage 2k aircrafts, but the price for the upgrade is high (€1,5 mil) and it's not decided yet, they could also be replaced by MMRCA winner.
4 kind of mrcas shouldn't be a problem, cause they are in different weight classes and for different roles. Su 30 Mki and Pak Fa, heavy class, Rafale and co in medium and LCA in the light class should be the future of IAF.

 

[mean_bird]

So what you saying is that China improved their capabilities in the last decades very fast and that's why J10 will have better techs then Mki right?
As far as I know at the moment (and you are welcome to correct me) the J10 will have AL 31 engine but without TVC and maybe the Zhuk ME PESA radar right (China is working on an own radar and engine that are not ready yet)?
The Mki also has the AL 31 with 2D TVC and will get AL 41 with 3D TVC and SC capabilities which are already reported on Su 35 with an early version of that engine. The PESA radar Mki has is superior to the Zhuk ME and it will get AESA radar with the MLU, most probably the same that Pak Fa/FGFA will have. These are not only my wishes, but facts that were reported severall times related to Mki.
So if you say it will have better techs then these, I would be very interested to hear what techs that will be.

J-10 and Su-30 use the same engine. If India can update its engine so can China (and by transition pakistan if it ever gets the Russian engine). How are you assuming just India with its mighty invincible Su-30 will be upgrading the engine and not China? As for pakistan, they will most probably go with a Chinese engine. Its still 5 years away and too early to speculate.

And wake me up when a contract is signed for this "MLU" of the Su-30MKI.

He is not so wrong, Mig 29 (60 - 70 not 100) will be upgraded to stay in service till 2020/25 and might be replaced by Pak Fa/FGFA. Reports said that the upgrade includes airframe overhaul, new engine, radar and added BVR combat capabilities (R77 missiles). Dassault makes an offer to upgrade around 50 Mirage 2k aircrafts, but the price for the upgrade is high (€1,5 mil) and it's not decided yet, they could also be replaced by MMRCA winner.
4 kind of mrcas shouldn't be a problem, cause they are in different weight classes and for different roles. Su 30 Mki and Pak Fa, heavy class, Rafale and co in medium and LCA in the light class should be the future of IAF.

wrong.

Dassault is asking in the range of €20million for each upgrade not just €1,5m which is peanuts.


And just so you know, the "upgrade" includes making the M2K have

- STD-1553B bus (JF-17 already has it),
- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit( JF-17 already has it, infact it has 3 MFDs and a complete glass cockpit) ,
- pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles ( JF-17 already has it),
- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers (depends on kind of ECM)
- advanced navigation system, mission computers (JF-17 has it)
- an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information (JF-17 already has it)
- Increased fuel capacity (about the same).

 

[hocuspocush]

He is not so wrong, Mig 29 (60 - 70 not 100) will be upgraded to stay in service till 2020/25 and might be replaced by Pak Fa/FGFA. Reports said that the upgrade includes airframe overhaul, new engine, radar and added BVR combat capabilities (R77 missiles). Dassault makes an offer to upgrade around 50 Mirage 2k aircrafts, but the price for the upgrade is high (€1,5 mil) and it's not decided yet, they could also be replaced by MMRCA winner.
4 kind of mrcas shouldn't be a problem, cause they are in different weight classes and for different roles. Su 30 Mki and Pak Fa, heavy class, Rafale and co in medium and LCA in the light class should be the future of IAF.

The deal for the upgrade of the MIG-29 was signed in March 2008.

"The upgrade, which will cost some $850 million, will convert the MiG-29 from an aerial interceptor and air dominance jet to a fighter-bomber capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on the ground and at sea with high-precision weapons under all weather conditions."

Under this deal, the Mig's will get:

"The aircraft’s onboard data and sighting systems will be completely updated with the installation of the state-of-the-art Zhuk-ME multifunctional radar, an advanced onboard computing complex, a new weapon control system, an optronic station based on space technologies and colour multifunctional displays in the cockpit."

....
....

"A top-notch avionics suite will include a number of up-to-date systems developed and produced by India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, and Bharat Dynamics Ltd, as also some foreign companies.

The armament upgrade will include the installation of modern weaponry like smart bombs and substantially improved air-to-air missiles and high-accuracy guided missiles to destroy ground and sea targets."

Refer: thaindian.com/newsportal/business/russia-to-upgrade-iafs-mig-29-combat-jets_10025181.html

So, clearly, the IAF tends to use this jets to strike ground and sea targets. I guess the air dominance role will be taken over by upgraded Mirage 2000 and MRCA.

 

[bilal1219]

Sorry off topic, but can you tell me how to thank posts from others.

Thanks

 

[hocuspocush]

wrong.

Dassault is asking in the range of €20million for each upgrade not just €1,5m which is peanuts.


And just so you know, the "upgrade" includes making the M2K have

- STD-1553B bus (JF-17 already has it),
- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit( JF-17 already has it, infact it has 3 MFDs and a complete glass cockpit) ,
- pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles ( JF-17 already has it),
- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers (depends on kind of ECM)
- advanced navigation system, mission computers (JF-17 has it)
- an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information (JF-17 already has it)
- Increased fuel capacity (about the same).

WRONG ! ! !

"Under a parallel plan the IAF plans to upgrade its 52 French made Dassault Mirage 2000H fighters. India is currently in the final stage negotiating the 1.5-billion euro program with Thales and Dassault. Officials said, the upgrade of the Mirage 2000s will begin by June. "

Refer: defense-update.com/newscast/0307/news/140307_mig29.htm


"While Thales was reluctant to state figures given a confidentiality clause, the project is believed to be worth $1.5 billion for upgrading the 51 Mirage-2000s in the IAF fleet to Dash-5 levels. This will give the jets multi-role capability with longer-range radars and fire-and-forget missiles, enabling less aircraft to perform a given mission thanks to greater fuel and weapon-delivery capacities."

The upgrade will involve providing the Mirage-2000:

-- a state-of-the-art fly-by-wire digital cockpit and an enhanced weapons-carrying capability.

-- longer range detection across the spectrum, improved tactical situation awareness, longer range weapon firing against multiple simultaneous targets, weapon stealth and extended operating envelope with the capability to engage ground targets while countering airborne threats,”

-- “For instance, a typical border protection mission involving two hours on station will require just two upgraded Mirage-2000 aircraft compared with the current six aircraft,” Chaltiel pointed out.

Refer: thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/thales-awaits-iaf-nod-for-mirage-2000-upgrade_100152527.html



Mean_bird, please don't claim as you wish. Always, refer the links from where you are posting otherwise please refrain from stating false facts.