Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[bilal1219]

click on the "thumbs up" sign at the bottom right of each post, just next to the quote button.[/QUOTE]

i dont see Thumbs up in any post Sir.

 

[mean_bird]

click on the "thumbs up" sign at the bottom right of each post, just next to the quote button.

i dont see Thumbs up in any post Sir.

See attached image

 

[bilal1219]

See attached image

No sir i got nothing like that

 

[MZUBAIR]

Gucci Juice those nos 250 JETS by 2015 are pure speculation.

Even the RAF where i live can only procure Typhoons at approx 15 fighters per year.

To induct more than 1 Squadron a year,, Brand new plane,, New pilots,, Workshops for support, ground crew and quite simply the COST is almost impossible.

eg. China has inducted 100 J10s since 2004
France has inducted 40 Rafale since 2005 and UK Typhoons around 50 in 5 years.. These are super rich nations inducting trheir own built fighters...

India has barely inducted 100 flankers su30mki in 7 years.

I remember reading a report by ACM Tanvir who predicted that PAF would have 50 JF17 by 2010-2011.. The Artcile was an interview in Air Forces Monthly..

Thus Far we know for certain PAF has 8 prototypes of JF17 FOR IOC by this year end.

We Also know PAF has ordered 42 additional JF17 in version block 1 ie Russian engine & Chinease KLJ radar.

PAF will order block 2 only when either a western engine has been intergrated or the chinease engine meets PAFs minimum paremeters. This could take several years.

Yes this is really a question, that How can PAF get 42 fighters this year. Its a huge number. Building 42 and then testing them according to the standards. It never seems realistic.

Pakistan desperatly wants to get 250 jets before 2015. They are paying China on 7 years loan and this is 2009 after 7 years it will be 2015.

PAF also wants to ground old F7 and Mirage by the end of 2014. PAF only want to keep latest 50F7 and ROSE upgraded 80 mirage.

But as ACM has said that we would have 50+ jets in 2010-2011 and 1st JF-17 Sqd of Peshawar will get in operation by the end of this year then we have to believe this.

Pakistan and China on Saturday (7th March) signed an agreement for the serial production of 42 JF-17 Thunder jet fighter aircraft. JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft are expected to form the backbone of the Pakistani aerial combat fleet in the coming years. The agreement was signed at the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) headquarters by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Chairman Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry and M A Zhiping, President of state-run China Aviation Import-Export Corporation.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood, the chief of the Pakistan Air Force, said the first batch of JF-17s would be inducted into the Pakistani force later this year. Mahmood also said that, the serial production of the aircraft is being started with the cooperation of the Chinese government. Under the agreement, China will provide credit financing for manufacturing the jets. Payments will be made to China in seven years. On its part, Pakistan has invested USD 600 million in this project.

The JF-17 is a lightweight, all-weather, multi-role combat jet aircraft. It is jointly developed by Pakistan and China. The Pakistan Air Force has so far received eight JF-17 jets that are being used for testing and evaluation. Mahmood further added that, Pakistan would receive its first Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft from China by the end of 2010.

pakistan china to jointly produce jf-17

I also heard that 20 will be developed in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and 22 will be in Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation this year with russian engine and chinees weapons and avenoics.

Next 100 will be with french engine or chinees engine with western weapons.

Last 100 would be the most advanced fighters in JF-17 series with aditional features.

First 50 Engine will be up graded after the 3rd batch of JF-17.

 

[Haanzo]

No sir i got nothing like that

you gotta make certain number of posts before you can thank anyone

and mubazir ...even if the PAF gets 50 gets ..where are all the pilots going to come from ...itll take time to master that aircraft as well as field it in numbers with good pilots

 

[sancho]

J-10 and Su-30 use the same engine. If India can update its engine so can China (and by transition pakistan if it ever gets the Russian engine). How are you assuming just India with its mighty invincible Su-30 will be upgrading the engine and not China?

It is generally the same engine like I said too (AL31F), but different versions (Mki has AL31FP with TVC), China never got a TVC version of that engine, not even for Su 30 MKK. That should make clear that China don't get all the same Russian stuff India can get, also at upg.
Once again I just showed up what techs the Mki might get and am still interested what techs J10 will get that are better as Munir mentioned.

As for pakistan, they will most probably go with a Chinese engine. Its still 5 years away and too early to speculate.
Agree with that, specially that it's far to early to speculate how good it will be.

wrong.

Dassault is asking in the range of €20million for each upgrade not just €1,5m which is peanuts.

As hocuspocus link shows the €1,5 million are correct and that's double as much as we pay for upg more Mig 29 so I wouldn't call it peanuts. So what was wrong at my post?

And just so you know, the "upgrade" includes making the M2K have

- STD-1553B bus (JF-17 already has it),
- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit( JF-17 already has it, infact it has 3 MFDs and a complete glass cockpit) ,
- pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles ( JF-17 already has it),
- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers (depends on kind of ECM)
- advanced navigation system, mission computers (JF-17 has it)
- an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information (JF-17 already has it)
- Increased fuel capacity (about the same).

Thanks for the info, but did I ever compared Mirage with JF 17? I even said before JF 17 is better than LCA mk1, so for sure it must be better then the Mirage right?

What I would found way more interesting then JF 17 VS Mki, or Mirage, would be a comparison between J10 vs upg Mig 29!
In a2a combats they seems to be very comparable, because of same radar, highly maneuverable and both should have good BVR missiles.

 

[Arsalan]

No sir i got nothing like that

well dear keep on posting any informative data that you have, after a certain number of posts you will be able to thanks other posts! it is a thumbs-up yellow colored sign at the bottom right corner of each post but will appear after a certain number of posts!

i hope this will help you! now dont forget to hit it when it appears to you

by the way welcome to forum!

regards!

 

[bilal1219]

well dear keep on posting any informative data that you have, after a certain number of posts you will be able to thanks other posts! it is a thumbs-up yellow colored sign at the bottom right corner of each post but will appear after a certain number of posts!

i hope this will help you! now dont forget to hit it when it appears to you

by the way welcome to forum!

regards!

Well, first of all, Thanks for the welcome, I joined here like 2 years ago, but never really took intrest in it. But now this is part of my part time job. LOL. I am applying for PAF next year. So thought why not go and read some informative stuff. Im really thankful to the senior members like yourself and other people like muradK, Munir who post really helpful information, be it planes or social life of PAF. I am glad to be part of this forum. I really look forward to learn more stuff.

Thanks again

 

[mean_bird]

Once again I just showed up what techs the Mki might get and am still interested what techs J10 will get that are better as Munir mentioned.

As I said, its too early to speculate. But considering that its 5 years away, I am pretty sure there is enough time to incorporate lots of changes.

My personal feeling is, if AESA is being offered for JF-17 now then surely you can expect a pretty decent AESA for FC-20. Then the navigation system, weapons, missiles as mentioned by ex-PAF Chief. Which means better PGBs, better BVRAAM, better WVRAAM. If China can have a working WS-15 by then, then supercruise "might" be a possibility. Onboard computers, sensors, ECM are also things that can be improved by that time-frame.

As hocuspocus link shows the €1,5 million are correct and that's double as much as we pay for upg more Mig 29 so I wouldn't call it peanuts. So what was wrong at my post?

Thanks for the info, but did I ever compared Mirage with JF 17? I even said before JF 17 is better than LCA mk1, so for sure it must be better then the Mirage right?

You said €1.5 million from which it looks like you are saying 1.5million per plane. But its around 20-30 million per plane. It seems you meant €1.5 billion.

Those details were just for information not against someone's post. Mirage is currently better than LCA MK1. Current LCA have some decent on-paper stats, but they haven't transferred into reality. Currently, LCA is suffering for quite a few hitches which need to be resolved. The details have been discussed a lot in the JF-17 vs LCA thread a couple of months ago. Upgraded Mirage should be quite a decent aircraft, not to be taken lightly.

 

[sancho]

As I said, its too early to speculate. But considering that its 5 years away, I am pretty sure there is enough time to incorporate lots of changes.

My personal feeling is, if AESA is being offered for JF-17 now then surely you can expect a pretty decent AESA for FC-20. Then the navigation system, weapons, missiles as mentioned by ex-PAF Chief. Which means better PGBs, better BVRAAM, better WVRAAM. If China can have a working WS-15 by then, then supercruise "might" be a possibility. Onboard computers, sensors, ECM are also things that can be improved by that time-frame.

Sure that all could be, but the same things are expected for Mki and won't be better. That's why I asked what techs that will, or could be.
My guess is, that China won't concentrate too much on J10 and tries to push a 5. gen fighter, cause Russia and India will have in the next 10 years and the US already have it. But they have to get AESA radar and their indigenous engine done first, just like us.

You said €1.5 million from which it looks like you are saying 1.5million per plane. But its around 20-30 million per plane. It seems you meant €1.5 billion.

Oh ok my fault, billion of course not million.

 

[Keysersoze]

no offense, but some ppl here are being very arrogant and i think they should stop. and have a good discussion

noone is trolling here

everything is backed up with news articles and other sources

Thanks for the advice but we have much better sources and we have gotten tired of hearing the same crap OVER and OVER again....It gets boring year after year.

 

[Gucci Juice]

^

i understand bout the sources...

but i dont see how its economically viable to go from block 1 jf-17 to block 2 jf-17 in 3-5 years time.

i mean look at the mki, its been at block 1 for 10 years? and is due for an upgrade around 2014. sure there's been new equipment every few years but thats very small stuff like new processors, new lcd panels, etc...

but what everyone here is talking about on the jf-17 is a major upgrade with aesa and new french avionics in 3-5 years time.

isn't the jf-17 good enough in its current state?

aesa is a new technology and it'll cost at least 3 million for 1 and french avionics are very expensive for 2 (they are charging 20 million euros per plane for the upgrade of mirage 2000s)

 

[sancho]

^

i understand bout the sources...

but i dont see how its economically viable to go from block 1 jf-17 to block 2 jf-17 in 3-5 years time.

i mean look at the mki, its been at block 1 for 10 years? and is due for an upgrade around 2014. sure there's been new equipment every few years but thats very small stuff like new processors, new lcd panels, etc...

I think you forget that JF 17 is a brand new aircraft, not all of it's capabilities will be ready right from the start, but will be added with every new block. Look at F16, EF, Rafale...., they did it just like that. Mki/Mkk instead was variants of a completely developed Su 27, so you don't have to add many new things in a next block and can wait till it's time for the MLU.
So new features for JF 17 in the next few years are realistic (more weapons, different engine, maybe radar), but if it's really going to be AESA radar is anther question cause it will be expensive.
IMO it makes more sense to get AESA for best PAF fighters like F16 or J10, these are more capable and only in few numbers so costs won't be so high compared to the big numbers of JF 17.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No sir i got nothing like that

You can't thank people until you cross a certain number of posts.

 

[IceCold]

I think you forget that JF 17 is a brand new aircraft, not all of it's capabilities will be ready right from the start, but will be added with every new block. Look at F16, EF, Rafale...., they did it just like that. Mki/Mkk instead was variants of a completely developed Su 27, so you don't have to add many new things in a the next block and can wait till it's time for the MLU.
So new features for JF 17 in the next few years are realistic (more weapons, different engine, maybe radar), but if it's really going to be AESA radar is anther question cause it will be expensive.
IMO it makes more sense to get AESA for best PAF fighters like F16 or J10, these are more capable and only in few numbers so costs won't be so high compared to the big numbers of JF 17.

You cant modify an F-16 in Pakistan without US approval so forget about putting an AESA radar in the F-16s.