Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[Grand Historian]

First off, I would like to apologize to moderator Hu Songshan for going off topic on other threads therefore I decided to makes this topic.

Since this topic is a prickly one I welcome moderation if things become heated,I will try to uphold propriety and I expect others to do as well.


My purpose is to educate and dispel myths about genetics and the Baiyue ancestry of modern day Southern Han Chinese.

First off, there is nothing as Baiyue or Han DNA,haplogroups formed prior to the formation of ethnicities they spread either by conquest,bottlenecks or spread of agriculture/technology.

Baiyue is a term coined by the Chinese for the "barbarian" statelets of Southern China and beyond there is no evidence whatsoever that the Baiyue even called themselves yue(越 or 粵 these were used interchangeably in ancient times).

Baiyue was applied to multiple people, from the enemies Wu Qi pacified to the natives of the Lingnan region.

The Baiyue did not belong in the same language family(Tibeto Burman,Austro Asiatic,Tai Kadai,Hmong-Mien,Austronesian),neither did they gravitate towards the idea of a sovereign.

However Baiyue did share some traits such as:
teeth blackening
short hair
warlike
stilt houses
tattoos
hemp clothing
small villages
etc

However rather then being completely shut out from Sinitic influences, the Baiyue adopted Chinese weapons,served as mercanaries,decorated their bronze drums with Chinese motifs and even mingled with Sinitic migrants ie Zhuang Qiao in Dianyue,Zhao Tuo and his soldiers in Nanyue and remenants of the YuYue court in Minyue and DongOu.

Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s

Zhuang 02

People don't seem to realize the intial Baiyue population was quite small except for Northern Vietnam

From 中國人口史 I will translate this portion when I have time for now Chinese readers can analyze it.

These portions are about Southern minorities.

Western Han

Eastern Han.

From another forum:
The first map shows Han Chinese population at 2 A.D. with 57.7 million total,44 million living in the north and 13.7 in the south.

The second map Shows Han Chinese population at 140 A.D. with 48 million total,26 in the north and 22 in the south.

For later periods the province of Fujian in the 8th century had 104,311 people,9th century 74,467,10 century 467,815 and 12th century 1,061,759 gotten from Empire of Min.



For further reading I would recommend:
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp017_yue.pdf
百越民族史
百越源流与文化

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The modern Southern Hans are predominantly O3a Huaxia, but there were some so-called Baiyue tribes lived in the basin of the Yangzi River.

 

[jkroo]

Just for those who don't know that modern China has 56 ethnic groups.

 

[Viet]

The Baiyue did not belong in the same language family(Tibeto Burman,Austro Asiatic,Tai Kadai,Hmong-Mien,Austronesian),neither did they gravitate towards the idea of a sovereign.

However Baiyue did share some traits such as:
teeth blackening
short hair
warlike
stilt houses
tattoos
hemp clothing
small villages
etc

many Chinese argue the Vietnamese people have nothing relating to Baiyue, so why the Viets embrace such traits as you have listed above? What is your opinion?

teeth blackening

stilt house of Ho Chi Minh

short hair
hemp clothing

small village

I am not sure about tatoos.

 

[Grand Historian]

many Chinese argue the Vietnamese people have nothing relating to Baiyue, so why the Viets embrace such traits as you have listed above? What is your opinion?

teeth blackening

stilt house of Ho Chi Minh

short hair
hemp clothing

small village

I am not sure about tatoos.

Well the Baiyue was just a umbrella term the ancient Chinese used for unsinicized Southern natives,that doesn't mean that modern day Vietnamese can claim all of Southern China as their long lost land.

ie it would be like a Native American tribe lets say the Apache claiming the history/territories of the Iroquois.

So yes I partially agree with the notion,Vietnamese have no lineage from YuYue,Minyue etc only from Ouyue,Luoyue and Nanyue.

Shared cultural traits amongst primitive people isn't exactly uncommon.

Adopting someone else's culture doesn't automatically make the two groups related,the introduction of horses,chariots and bronze smelting to China was from the West however that doesn't make Chinese related to Sumerians,Scythians etc rather culture and technology is easily adopted.

What is truly irritating is that some nationalistic Vietnamese are making irredentist claims about Southern China belonging to Vietnamese and that Southern Han Chinese are not true Chinese.

If you want me to address the myth of the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings I will.

 

[Viet]

Well the Baiyue was just a umbrella term the ancient Chinese used for unsinicized Southern natives,that doesn't mean that modern day Vietnamese can claim all of Southern China as their long lost land.

ie it would be like a Native American tribe lets say the Apache claiming the history/territories of the Iroquois.

So yes I partially agree with the notion,Vietnamese have no lineage from YuYue,Minyue etc only from Ouyue,Luoyue and Nanyue.

okay, at least you are one who partially admits this.

Shared cultural traits amongst primitive people isn't exactly uncommon.

Adopting someone else's culture doesn't automatically make the two groups related,the introduction of horses,chariots and bronze smelting to China was from the West however that doesn't make Chinese related to Sumerians,Scythians etc rather culture and technology is easily adopted..

when you argue then you should remain constant thru the debate. the point is cultures and custom. the traits in the opening post you have listed. We are not talking about adopting technique such as gunpowders or other things you mention bronze smelting.

do you know any other tribes or nations in SE Asia or elsewhere that share similar Yue/Sinic cultures and custom like the Viets, as you say it is easy to adopt?

What is truly irritating is that some nationalistic Vietnamese are making irredentist claims about Southern China belonging to Vietnamese and that Southern Han Chinese are not true Chinese.

some, but not the majority

I believe the debate is about whether the Kingdom of NanYue is Chinese or Vietnamese. We say it is Vietnamese Kingdom: the ancient NamViet, today Vietnam.

If you want me to address the myth of the Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings I will.

Van Lang and Hung Kings are a myth, so there is no point to continue the debate here on the forum. unless tomorrrow some unknow facts arrive the scene, then we can continue.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

The O Y chromosome came from SE Asia, not the other way round. Human migrate to SE Asia first, then to East Asia, and this is now generally accepted by genetist.

The Human Journey: Migration Routes

l

Genetically Southern Chinese cluster with Vietnamese, Thai and Malay, not with Northern Chinese. Northern Chinese is extremely far from Southern Chinese.

The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books

Y chromosome is just one of the metrics. The most authoritative scholar on genetic distance is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University. Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes (1994 with Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza) is a standard reference on human genetic variation. Cavalli-Sforza look at an average of 68.6 genes.

But anthropological evidence suggest a North to South migration, from East Asia to SE Asia. For example, there are suggestions that Malays originated from Taiwan and even Fujian. The Thai and Burmese are definitely from Yunan.

The idea that Southern Chinese are predominantly descendant of Northern Chinese need further investigation. That is just based mainly on looking at Y chromosome without considering larger and complicated picture of human migration.

 

[Viet]

@Lux de Veritas

I´m afraid your cousins will not agree with you. They don´t like to see us to group with Southern Chinese. I read in a book the first Viets were indoaustralian race and came from the Sea. They settled down in the Red river delta over thousands of years ago. Over the time the Viets mixed with other races, mostly with local Chinese and Mongols.

Genetic speaking we are Indoaustralian, and indeed mixed with Han, Manchu and Mongolian (assuming the graph below is correct, borrowed from wholegrain).

 

[Speeder 2]

View attachment 14835

The O Y chromosome came from SE Asia, not the other way round. Human migrate to SE Asia first, then to East Asia, and this is now generally accepted by genetist.

The Human Journey: Migration Routes

l

Genetically Southern Chinese cluster with Vietnamese, Thai and Malay, not with Northern Chinese. Northern Chinese is extremely far from Southern Chinese.

The History and Geography of Human Genes - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza - Google Books

Y chromosome is just one of the metrics. The most authoritative scholar on genetic distance is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University. Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes (1994 with Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza) is a standard reference on human genetic variation. Cavalli-Sforza look at an average of 68.6 genes.

But anthropological evidence suggest a North to South migration, from East Asia to SE Asia. For example, there are suggestions that Malays originated from Taiwan and even Fujian. The Thai and Burmese are definitely from Yunan.

The idea that Southern Chinese are predominantly descendant of Northern Chinese need further investigation. That is just based mainly on looking at Y chromosome without considering larger and complicated picture of human migration.

Verita I am afraid that I can't agree with you:

1. There're countless "genetical graphs and analysis"on internet nowadays tell many "scientific stories". Most of them have questionable sources. Don't fall for them. While Cavalli-Sforza is kinda of famous (aka well-quoted), what he claims it's not necessarily 100% doubt-free, particularly in areas of genes, the knowledge on which is fastly exploding in recent years. Most of Cavalli-Sforza's related work (the graph, data from nationalgeographic, etc) were from the 1990's, when genes research was still at its infancy. Nowadays, what a young and unknown researcher at BGI probably knows much more, and correct, about genes than famous Cavalli-Sforza.

e.g. previously the world geneticts thought northern indians are drastically different from the southen indians. yet recent gene research indicates that the gap between them is quite small, really, so much soo that it can be said that in general Indians, nothern or southern, are by and large homogenous at the sub-continental level.

2. It seems that the key here is which gene/s decides more. The judge on this is still out there. Weither Cavalli-Sforza looked at 62 genes or more could be highly questionable under the new knowledge we gained, and are keeping gaining as we speak, in gene research in recent years. Even though this probably would not affect the general opinions on many small ethnic groups, for large groups with complicated histories such as Han Chinese, the conclusion could be quite different from Cavalli-Sforza's research.

3. the problem with "traditional" view of Cavalli-Sforza is that it is very ambiguous to define what is "Southern Chinese". Is Shanghainese southern Chinese? Zhejiang ppl? Hunan ppl? or Sichuan ppl? ... And South of What? where to draw the line? And "Southern Chinese" from which era? - you know Southen Asutralians were obriginals many years ago and now they are mainly European Caucasoid... So "Southen Chinese" are from now, or from Song or Yuan Dynasty for instance? ... Here some simple logic helps:

in ancient time across the world, areas were occupied and re-occupied by victors of wars. The males of the losers were largely killed and became slaves who consequently lost their breeding rights - their Y-chromosome haves been rooted out - unfortunately this has been how mother nature works for eons. The females of the losers were largely killed, too, with ONLY a small fraction left for breeding with the winners... if this general rule holds true, then we can reasonablely assume that "Southen" Chinese were largely Northern Chinese ( the invaders) in fact who almost completely replaced the "original" habitants, whomever they were, in South of Yangzi River. This happened at least 2 or 3,000 years ago. however, it appears that some of the females of the losen tribes were allowed to breed with the Northern Chinese "invaders". That's why today's "Southern"Chinese have mostly Han Chinese Y-chromosome. right?

4. this leads to the last question here , is Y-chromosome the more determined factor (of whom you are), or is it just one insignificant factor among many many more. I think the answer is more prone to the former, because intelligence level of an ethnic groups of people or any spieces of lifeform on earth really, IMO, is the single most important factor of survival hence holds the overwelming significance AND purpose in the process of breeding of any lifeform. So in a sense the human breeding , for instance, can be viewed as being in fact a process with deliberate goal of propagation of Y-chromosome, making (or maintaining) it as intelligent as possible for maximising the chance of the successful survial of its future generations, right? therefore, it is logical that the "forever" Y-chromosom has more to do with the intelligence level relative to others hence it remains a more important factor in determing "whom you really are".

The facts that most so called "Southern Chinese" have identical Y-chromosome as the "Northern Chinese" AND with almost identical average IQ level offer a strong proof to my point 4.

Therefore, except obvious far south areas such as Yunana province where there're ethnicities who are clearly direct relatives of ethnic Thais/Laos, etc and have nothing to do with Northern Han, and some pockets of "world heritage protection areas", I view the so-called "Southen Chinese" as mostly Nothern Chinese in origin, with only some of them (a minority) having mixed maternal lines closer to SE Asia.

 

[Grand Historian]

when you argue then you should remain constant thru the debate. the point is cultures and custom. the traits in the opening post you have listed. We are not talking about adopting technique such as gunpowders or other things you mention bronze smelting.

do you know any other tribes or nations in SE Asia or elsewhere that share similar Yue/Sinic cultures and custom like the Viets, as you say it is easy to adopt?

Vietnamese adopted Sinic culture that doesn't prove that they are related only one copied the other.

I'm not going to do research for you a quick Google search shows that teeth blackening,stilt houses,sea faring is common in SEA and pre Han Southern China.

I believe the debate is about whether the Kingdom of NanYue is Chinese or Vietnamese. We say it is Vietnamese Kingdom: the ancient NamViet, today Vietnam.

My argument is that Nanyue is a Siniczed kingdom with many different ethnicities,its not exclusively Vietnamese.

1.The founder Zhao Tuo is from Zhending,Zhao which is definitely Chinese.

2.According to Shiji there were Qin convicts/soldiers that lived in Nanyue.

3.The capital was in Panyu not Vietnam.

4.Zhao Tuo married indigenous women and adopted Yue customs.

5.Chinese elements remain,Chinese style administration,Chinese weapons,Hanzi,gold seals and jade burial suits were used.

6.Zhao Tuo conquered OuLuo,which was in Northern Vietnam.

7.Zhao Tuo styled himself after the Chinese emperor using the title Huangdi for private use and referring to himself as Wang when dealing with the Han dynasty.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

If population of vanquished are exterminated 99%, then Northern China will be Mongols, Turks and Manchus. Also Y chromosome tell us that Chinese is from SE Asia.

If you look at Y Chromosome ONLY the migration pattern suggest the other way round. Not the northern Chinese begets Southern Chinese, but people in Southern Chinese give rise to Northern Chinese. The theory was put forward by PRC scholars more than anyone else.

However given the complicated waves of migration patterns of human being, it would be plausible that the earliest waves of human migration saw Northern Chinese branched out of Southern China tribe as a separate people. Later, Northern Chinese returned to the South.

Anthropologist suggest Southern Chinese are mestizo of Northern and locals, not entirely Northern. Also, it is conclusive that Thai, Malay and Burmese are from China.

Human migration through bottlenecks from Southeast ... [PLoS One. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
Cai X, Qin Z, Wen B, Xu S, Wang Y, Lu Y, Wei L, Wang C, Li S, Huang X, Jin L, Li H;

Molecular anthropological studies of the populations in and around East Asia have resulted in the discovery that most of the Y-chromosome lineages of East Asians came from Southeast Asia. However, very few Southeast Asian populations had been investigated, and therefore, little was known about the purported migrations from Southeast Asia into East Asia and their roles in shaping the genetic structure of East Asian populations. Here, we present the Y-chromosome data from 1,652 individuals belonging to 47 Mon-Khmer (MK) and Hmong-Mien (HM) speaking populations that are distributed primarily across Southeast Asia and extend into East Asia. Haplogroup O3a3b-M7, which appears mainly in MK and HM, indicates a strong tie between the two groups. The short tandem repeat network of O3a3b-M7 displayed a hierarchical expansion structure (annual ring shape), with MK haplotypes being located at the original point, and the HM and the Tibeto-Burman haplotypes distributed further away from core of the network. Moreover, the East Asian dominant haplogroup O3a3c1-M117 shows a network structure similar to that of O3a3b-M7. These patterns indicate an early unidirectional diffusion from Southeast Asia into East Asia, which might have resulted from the genetic drift of East Asian ancestors carrying these two haplogroups through many small bottle-necks formed by the complicated landscape between Southeast Asia and East Asia. The ages of O3a3b-M7 and O3a3c1-M117 were estimated to be approximately 19 thousand years, followed by the emergence of the ancestors of HM lineages out of MK and the unidirectional northward migrations into East Asia.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

The O3 subclate that is being associated for Han Chinese-ness occurred most frequently within Derung (独龙族) who span across Yunnan and Burma. Next are Nishi followed by Adi, who sadly live in Southern Tibet occupied by India.

Wikipedia state that this gene

Possible place of origin

1. China (GenographicProject 2005) or
2. Southeast Asia (Shi 2009)

Haplogroup O-M122 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looking at Y Chromosome diversity in SE Asia compared to a more homogeneous pool in NE Asia, genetists conclude that SE Asian begets NE Asian, not the other way round. In addition of diversity, the O3 subclate that associate most with Chinese happen to occur in much larger frequency in tribes of South Western part of China and India Assam region.

Nevertheless, the genetist deduction is far from conclusive. The anthropologist often suggest the other way. It is suggested by anthropologist that Assam people migrated from China.

 

[EastSea]

My argument is that Nanyue is a Siniczed kingdom with many different ethnicities,its not exclusively Vietnamese.
1.The founder Zhao Tuo is from Zhending,Zhao which is definitely Chinese.
2.According to Shiji there were Qin convicts/soldiers that lived in Nanyue.
3.The capital was in Panyu not Vietnam.
4.Zhao Tuo married indigenous women and adopted Yue customs.
5.Chinese elements remain,Chinese style administration,Chinese weapons,Hanzi,gold seals and jade burial suits were used.
6.Zhao Tuo conquered OuLuo,which was in Northern Vietnam.
7.Zhao Tuo styled himself after the Chinese emperor using the title Huangdi for private use and referring to himself as Wang when dealing with the Han dynasty.

George Washington is founder USA, he is English man and president of USA when it became independent state from UK. Same as Zhao Tuo did with the NanYue Kingdom.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Vietnam elites for a long time after her independence from China, are Chinese. In Korea, the natives control the country after her independence from China.

This is quite indisputable.

 

[EastSea]

@Lux de Veritas

I´m afraid your cousins will not agree with you. They don´t like to see us to group with Southern Chinese. I read in a book the first Viets were indoaustralian race and came from the Sea. They settled down in the Red river delta over thousands of years ago. Over the time the Viets mixed with other races, mostly with local Chinese and Mongols.

Genetic speaking we are Indoaustralian, and indeed mixed with Han, Manchu and Mongolian (assuming the graph below is correct, borrowed from wholegrain).

The graph is interesting that Vietnamese shared O2b with Manchus, Korean and Japanese.