Sharia laws, theories vary among world's Muslims

[asaad-ul-islam]

ijtehad can be implemented when we have a khalifa and a large islamic state. new laws can be made. authority can change haraam to halal and halal to haraam when conditions are right. even saudia is not a real islamic state, dig deep enough and you will find out. oh yeah, and dude, calm down.

 

[solid snake]

ijtehad can be implemented when we have a khalifa and a large islamic state. new laws can be made. authority can change haraam to halal and halal to haraam when conditions are right. even saudia is not a real islamic state, dig deep enough and you will find out. oh yeah, and dude, calm down.

I'm perfectly calm. I simply enjoy debating with religious people, I like to expose holes in their logic

So you're saying any Islamic law that becomes inconvenient should be abandoned, huh? I don't think any law laid down in the Quran can be dropped using Ijtihad. The Quran is very clear on this matter:

275. Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.

So each and every person of every Muslim country is a sinner in Allahs eyes, because you are dealing with Riba.

Also interesting to note, Jews who invented interest are the richest people in the world today, and Muslim countries that avoided it for a long time, well you can see their state today.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I'm perfectly calm. I simply enjoy debating with religious people, I like to expose holes in their logic
QUOTE]
since you think all religious people are dumb, i shall expose holes in your logic.
interest or aka usury is definitely haraam, this is not a matter of necessity, it can be avoided, unless you want to go to war with Allah and His Messenger. the same goes for zina, there is no matter of necessity, it can be avoided by marrying. rather if you wanted to use an argument, i would have recommended ayahs pertaining to things identified as haraam and indulging in them would be crossing the limit. when man is desperate and there is a dire need, he may leave those limits,
"... But if one is compelled by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him; indeed, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. " (2:173)
as for making haraam to halal, it has been mentioned above already, hadrat Umar pardoned people for stealing becuase he took into account the terrible famine that taking place at that time.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Also interesting to note, Jews who invented interest are the richest people in the world today, and Muslim countries that avoided it for a long time, well you can see their state today.

what part of being muslim, do you not seem to understand. wealth is weakness for this ummah. we already gave up eating haraam, commiting zina. what is your point? we may be suffering, but we are still a strong and proud people. islamic banking is becoming a world phenomenon, even UK wants to become a hub for this thing.

 

[solid snake]

since you think all religious people are dumb, i shall expose holes in your logic.
interest or aka usury is definitely haraam, this is not a matter of necessity, it can be avoided, unless you want to go to war with Allah and His Messenger. the same goes for zina, there is no matter of necessity, it can be avoided by marrying. rather if you wanted to use an argument, i would have recommended ayahs pertaining to things identified as haraam and indulging in them would be crossing the limit. when man is desperate and there is a dire need, he may leave those limits,
"... But if one is compelled by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, there is no sin on him; indeed, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. " (2:173)
as for making haraam to halal, it has been mentioned above already, hadrat Umar pardoned people for stealing becuase he took into account the terrible famine that taking place at that time.

Religious people aren't dumb so much as blind. They accept everything their parents tell them without question, they make bold, sweeping statements like "Islamic law is made by allah and applies to all people around the world for all time to come". Then I think of the things they themselves do, and most of their life is a violation of the things in the Quran.

And I don't see how you exposed a hole in my logic. You simply stated usury is haraam and it is not a "matter of necessity" (not quite sure what you mean there). But you yourself said it can be avoided unless you want to piss off Allah. So why are countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran practicing interest? Do you have even an elmentary understanding of economics?

If you can lay down over here a method to run a country's economy without interest, I'd surely like to hear it. If you can come up with a way to eliminate usury from a country's economy, you will surely win the nobel prize.

There is one way to eliminate ususry, and this is the Taliban way, ie. no economy. At least the Taliban were following their religion to the word, and weren't hypocrites like the so called "moderate Muslims" who work at the State bank of Pakistan deciding whether to cut the interest rate to control inflation, and then goes home and says he wishes the country had true Islamic Sharia

And if a Muslim says he makes financial transactions which include interest because in todays world it is unavoidable and he has no choice, he is esentially saying sharia law is not perfect and that he is unwilling to follow it and is a big hypocrite, though he never thinks about this and would protest vehemenlty if you called him out on his hypocricy.

So since this thread is about implementing Sharia law as the main law of the land, I'd very much like to hear a Muslim explain how to run a country without usury. I'm eagerly waiting, don't disappoint me and never reply like every other religious person does when I have them cornered

 

[Spring Onion]

Solid snake you are going off the topic and things which the Bishop nor the Muslims living in UK or US have demanded to include in the laws.

Implementing Sharia is one thing while including some laws as the Bishop suggested is another.


Tell me how the British Law or US Law would be implemented in case of inheritance of property and marital issues in case of Muslim couple living in UK having UK citizenship???

 

[divineflame]

How would you define wholistic culture?????
In context of the place the laws dealing only with rules of that country can be implemented which can not deal with the religiouse issues of a community.

Take example of India 13% population is Muslim (probably by numbers more than Pakistan), Shariah law can be applied there? When there are 10 more religions living in country. So Indian subcontinent has its own culture, which is highly diversified, country needs law Land which can be applied to every one.

Probably same applied to Pakistan, where other religion's people staying. How it is possible to force Shariah law “as it is” to every one? And some where I feel even many deep believers in Islam may not accept.

Also the way you have picked a small portion of my statement which can confuse and distract the discussion later stage. I have not said that, only based on culture you make laws, but to confuse the matter you picked that portion.

In some thread I have already said for few very personal issues like marriage etc, each religion can have Personal Laws.

Religious faith is one thing, country's law is another thing, though it may have some influence. But particular law written for a country's own people 1500 years back can not be applied as it is to every place.

So Sharia laws will certainly vary among different countries, some where it may deviate 10% and other place it may deviate 90%, depends upon demand of time and place, people, culture, current problems that need to be solved.

 

[solid snake]

Solid snake you are going off the topic and things which the Bishop nor the Muslims living in UK or US have demanded to include in the laws.

I believe the title of the thread is "Sharia laws, theories vary among worlds Muslims". My posts are 100% on topic, I'm asking you how and why Muslims countries like Saudi Arabia are using interest when it is quite clearly forbidden in Islam. There can be no "theories" about whether it is forbidden or not.

As forbidden as alcohol or pre-marital sex, no compromise on ususry. Yet all Muslim countries are hypocrites, choosing to ignore a law which is inconvenient to them. WHY????

Can you answer my question??????? No you can't, so you will accuse me of going off topic or completely ignore my perfectly valid argument.

Implementing Sharia is one thing while including some laws as the Bishop suggested is another.

Some laws will lead to demand for some other laws which will lead to just a few more until there is full Sharia.

If you remember the Brits also slaughtered that sick cow despite many protests from Hindus. Did the demand to keep alive a suffering and dangerous cow seem absurd to you? The rest of the world was amused by this attempt by Hindus. I can assure you laws which Muslims want implemented make just as little sense to others.

UK has one of the highest athiest/agnostic populations by % in the world. They would never allow religious laws to be included in their constitution.

Tell me how the British Law or US Law would be implemented in case of inheritance of property and marital issues in case of Muslim couple living in UK having UK citizenship???

Uh..they would be implemented just as for Jewish people or Christian people or athiest people. I don't understand WHAT part of inheritence/marrige laws Muslims find unfair? please tell me I'm dying to know.

 

[Spring Onion]

Solid i will reply your posts in detail on Friday as tommorrow is my off and i wont be haveing internet.

I have not much knowledg about Islamic banking so i can not reply your posts with solid arguments but there are some positive and very solid aspectes of it. i had read somehwhere a comprehensive news will try to locat.

As far your comment about hypocracy Yes i agree with that Muslim countries are in regard to this intrest issue.

Even we have Khyber Bank here in NWFP that claims to offer interst-free banking but that is not true rather the bank is just decieving the account holders.

BTW I was amazed how the enlightened world that believes in so-called freedom of Expression is bent upon insulting this Bishop for his comments and asking him to resign.
Isnt it a pitty that just beacuse he talked about Muslims Laws he was started being hated in UK

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

again my point was to discuss the leniency of islamic law regarding punishment, not islamic economics. why other countries are using interest, is not my problem, i don't deal with interest, period. there have been islamic empires that have existed for centuries without interest even with a form of currency. I am looking forward to hearing exactly how much islamic law is enforced in pakistan. as for people of other faiths, islamic state permits them to be judged according to their own religious law, there is no harm in that.

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

Singapore, even though not a Muslim, still implements Sharia Law.

But Singaporean Sharia Law (court) just only handles the cases about marriage, divorce and inheritance of properties among Muslim. And Sharia Law should not have precedence over constitution. It is a good example for Sharia Law implement in morden life.

I don't think religious police's monitoring Muslim external and internal behaviours is a good idea. It is unwise to punish a Muslim who don't do fasting in Ramadan. If a Muslim are faithful to Allah, he (she) must do this.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I don't think religious police's monitoring Muslim external and internal behaviours is a good idea. It is unwise to punish a Muslim who don't do fasting in Ramadan. If a Muslim are faithful to Allah, he (she) must do this.

So far, I have never heard of any hadith of the Prophet (saws) punishing someone a muslim for not praying or fasting, although he did show anger. I know that there are definitely punishments for a muslim for breaking a law according to his religion. Also jews would come to Prophet (saws) for judgement in their disputes and he would judge them according to their hebrew law (Sunan Abu Dawood)

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

So far, I have never heard of any hadith of the Prophet (saws) punishing someone a muslim for not praying or fasting, although he did show anger. I know that there are definitely punishments for a muslim for breaking a law according to his religion. Also jews would come to Prophet (saws) for judgement in their disputes and he would judge them according to their hebrew law (Sunan Abu Dawood)

I believe that Islam is gentle, however, many governments of Mulsim states usually integrate Islam with Government / Politics, Nationality, Territory, Historical enmity. So, there are many more extremists in Islam.


There are 4 groups of peoples (ethnics or languages) being predominantly Muslim.

Arab - Arab World
Goturk - Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kazahkstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenstan, Chechenya and Tatarstan of Russia, Uyghur in China
Malay - Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei
Persian - Iran, Afghanistan (Pusthun), Balochi people in Golden Cresent, Takijistan, Kurds in Middle East

 

[Flintlock]

Singapore, even though not a Muslim, still implements Sharia Law.

But Singaporean Sharia Law (court) just only handles the cases about marriage, divorce and inheritance of properties among Muslim. And Sharia Law should not have precedence over constitution. It is a good example for Sharia Law implement in morden life.

I don't think religious police's monitoring Muslim external and internal behaviours is a good idea. It is unwise to punish a Muslim who don't do fasting in Ramadan. If a Muslim are faithful to Allah, he (she) must do this.

Singapore can afford to have sharia elements, because the State decides what parts of Sharia law are going to be applied, and there is no vote on the issue.

Singapore doesn't have a liberal government which is liable to be exploited by fundamentalists.

 

[Sino-PakFriendship]

Singapore can afford to have sharia elements, because the State decides what parts of Sharia law are going to be applied, and there is no vote on the issue.

Singapore doesn't have a liberal government which is liable to be exploited by fundamentalists.

Singapore, even though not liberal, is an efficient, legitimate and multicultural state.

The government of Singapore is legitimate dictatorship not fundamentalism.