Sharia laws, theories vary among world's Muslims

[Shabaz Sharif]

Its not an excuse, its a fact. Believe it if you want to.

This is also fact that hindutva will keep winning as long as hindus like you and Samudra keep supporting them.

 

[Flintlock]

This is also fact that hindutva will keep winning as long as hindus like you and Samudra keep supporting them.

Dude I don't support the hindutva movement. I see it as an inevitable offspring if indian nationalism.
However, that doesn't mean that you deny the facts which brought Modi to power. Sure, he used religious feelings, but he is also the most efficient and non-corrupt chief minister in a long time.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

you mean to say this struggle is only limited in election .. and not swat and Tribals areas ? plz dont try to change the topic ..

Mullah coudn't won in their backyard NWFP, while Moodi is still winning in gujrat after genocide.

Read it Properly before commenting .. i said others have changed there old belifs with new scientific and ethical knowledge .

How hinduisim is changed now? They still do thousands of years old rituals so don't ever go in your so called hindusism new scientific knowledge.

Pardon me .. ? 800 million lives under 50 cent of what ??

Sorry, 800 million Indians are living in 0.40 cents or less a day. Here is complete report so first try to fix your own backyard.
Infochange India News Features Analysis Measuring global poverty: India on 20 cents a day

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Dude I don't support the hindutva movement. I see it as an inevitable offspring if indian nationalism.
However, that doesn't mean that you deny the facts which brought Modi to power. Sure, he used religious feelings, but he is also the most efficient and non-corrupt chief minister in a long time.

No, i don't deny the fact that Moodi come to power because of hatred for muslims which is easy way to go on top and stay there. You using same excuses which Nazi supporters use.

 

[Flintlock]

No, i don't deny the fact that Moodi come to power because of hatred for muslims which is easy way to go on top and stay there. You using same excuses which Nazi supporters use.

Oh my god. Forget it. Goodnight.

 

[Logic note]

Mullah coudn't won in their backyard NWFP, while Moodi is still winning in gujrat after genocide.[/url]

thats the Problem my dear .. you dont see the reality ..
there is a little Mullah in most of the winners ( you can understand from there worldview and opinions)

Modi - Ahh Same old excuse ,although I dont defend him .. he is charged not for genocide but for not been able to control Riots and he is winning because of his good and honest administrative work .
and Indian Law is above Modi or any religious belief ..

How hinduisim is changed now? They still do thousands of years old rituals so don't ever go in your so called hindusism new scientific knowledge.

Please dont drag this discussion to this retard level. we are not discussin the poverty level or rituals of Hinduism .India have a constitution which gives equal right to every citizen
first you have no idea about the topic we are discussin and you dont know anythng about hinduism .
change is not about rituals but beliefs which are either not relevant now or .. beliefs which clashes with ethics ..

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

So, I gather that you support the Taliban way of doing things?

try reading my post on page 6 of this thread, this subject has been addressed already.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Yes thats why I said lets reach one "universal " definition of "outdated"
which is accepted to everyone and is right for every time ...

you can't seem to grasp this fact, that there is no "universal" definition of what is right and wrong. globalization originates from western imperialistic empires. although many people have been "globalized", the majority of six billion people on earth are uneducated and illiterate. they have their own understanding of what is right and wrong, which is primarily according to their customs, cultures, traditions, religion, etc.

I am sorry .. if your couldnt understand .. I should have been more clear ..
here Molest means -- molesting civilization .. killing others .. bombing London and spain ..
and how do you think , ppl who want democracy bring terrorism ? care to explain me ?
demoracy means freedom of expression , respect for others opinion
as Voltaire said . "I may not like what u say but I will defend you right to say it " ..
this is the spirit of democracy .. now tell me how will it bring terrorism ..
redical Mullahs - yes
World is not against Islam .. world is against the narrow-mindedness in any religion including Islam . The problem is that while other religions have evolved and changed for better with increasing scientific and ethical knowledge, ISLAM IS STILL STRUGGLING and in this struggle rest of the world is getting hurt .

the vast majority of muslims believe there is a war on islam. I believe it isn't a war on islam, but it's definitely against muslims. Muslims just plain don't want to try to blend in with other cultures, let alone be forced. this so-called war on terror has supposedly introduced democracy into nations after have killed thousands of people. "other religions have evolved or changed" you're seriously starting to spit out sentences, try proving this.

secular laws, freedom of speech, democracy, these things have nothing to do with these religions. I seriously doubt hinduism or christianity has "evolved" to have assimilate scientific understanding of things. Please don't make stuff up.

 

[roadrunner]

World is not against Islam .. world is against the narrow-mindedness in any religion including Islam . The problem is that while other religions have evolved and changed for better with increasing scientific and ethical knowledge, ISLAM IS STILL STRUGGLING and in this struggle rest of the world is getting hurt .

Well that's not true. Hinduism isn't exactly blessed with scientific knowledge currently. One could also argue the Kashmiris are getting hurt, as well as the other places where a war is on. The WoT has been globalized, Kashmir hasn't, but if Kashmir was globalized, then the rest of the world would get hurt by it - however I would expect the Indian army to have capitulated well before this, and turned the Indian Ocean an odd shade of green-brown.

 

[mujahideen]

yes there is internal struggle in islamic world .. see in pakistan , .. Muslims fighting with each other . on one side is extremist religious ideology who wants to run the country with Sharia and on other hand are liberals fighting for demoracy and equality for every citizin of pakistan irrespective of his religion .

World is not against Islam .. world is against the narrow-mindedness in any religion including Islam . The problem is that while other religions have evolved and changed for better with increasing scientific and ethical knowledge, ISLAM IS STILL STRUGGLING and in this struggle rest of the world is getting hurt .

First of all their is not an internal struggle in Islam. I prefer to call it a struggle of different ideologies. Now religious ideologies exist in every religion and in Islam it is to be restricted to a peaceful argument. Now you talk of war within Islam. Let me assure you no side wants war, they want to talk, but since we have outside forces acting we have a war. This struggle in Pakistan between secularism and what I would call religious ideologist has always been around. We were founded in the name of Islam but our founding fathers said we are secular. Before 9/11 none of this would be talked about why because no outside force was at work and these arguments were done peacefully. The point is the reason why we see a struggle for ideology in a violent way is because outside forces want us to fight and divide us, now I am not going to get into the argument about foreign forces, war on Islam because that is already being discussed.
Now the part about Islam struggling. You and everyone else needs to get it through that Islam as a religion has never struggled, it is complete in every aspect, you can find solutions to any problem or any thing you want. Now may be you are forgetting that Muslims ruled the world for 900 years from the time of the Holy Prophet till around the 1800s. The reason being Islamic laws and provisions were followed and the point is they worked. The Western world has just started to rule and I doubt they will even rule for 900 years. The problem is with us when it comes to not being united.
As far as Islam evloving. You see you are not Muslim and are bron in the age of Westernization, where the Christian religion rules. Islam does not need to evolve, it is in its final form. If you follow Islam you can find the solution to anything and these solution are good for even today. Islam has contributed more to society then anyother religion. Lets take our advances in medicines, math, chemistry, physics and I could go on and on. Dont talk about something you have no knowledge of.

 

[Flintlock]

Now the part about Islam struggling. You and everyone else needs to get it through that Islam as a religion has never struggled, it is complete in every aspect, you can find solutions to any problem or any thing you want. Now may be you are forgetting that Muslims ruled the world for 900 years from the time of the Holy Prophet till around the 1800s. The reason being Islamic laws and provisions were followed and the point is they worked. The Western world has just started to rule and I doubt they will even rule for 900 years. The problem is with us when it comes to not being united.

1. Islam never "Ruled the world".
2. There is no such thing as "rule of the western world". You are extrapolating outdated concepts onto a world that has changed far too much.
3. Islam doesn't have answers for everything. Only those who haven't had much education would say that.

As far as Islam evloving. You see you are not Muslim and are bron in the age of Westernization, where the Christian religion rules. Islam does not need to evolve, it is in its final form. If you follow Islam you can find the solution to anything and these solution are good for even today. Islam has contributed more to society then anyother religion. Lets take our advances in medicines, math, chemistry, physics and I could go on and on. Dont talk about something you have no knowledge of.

Again, there is no such thing as "Rule of Christian religion". It was in the middle ages, not anymore. You are just extending the 11th century into the 21st without considering a single change that has taken place.

Islam has not contributed more to society than any other religion, and certainly not to science. Religion never contributes to science. The two are completely at odds with each other.
The discoveries of the islamic world had little to do with religion, and more to do with personal genius.

The Greeks (Pagans mind you, half-naked pagans) contributed much, much more than muslims ever did. the Indians, Chinese, and Nordic people didn't do too badly either.

If you have been spending your time on websites that proclaim "everything came from Islam", then you are sadly mistaken. Very little came from Islam. Most of the modern world came from the Renaissance, which had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

 

[mujahideen]

1. Islam never "Ruled the world".
2. There is no such thing as "rule of the western world". You are extrapolating outdated concepts onto a world that has changed far too much.
3. Islam doesn't have answers for everything. Only those who haven't had much education would say that.

Again, there is no such thing as "Rule of Christian religion". It was in the middle ages, not anymore. You are just extending the 11th century into the 21st without considering a single change that has taken place.

Islam has not contributed more to society than any other religion, and certainly not to science. Religion never contributes to science. The two are completely at odds with each other.
The discoveries of the islamic world had little to do with religion, and more to do with personal genius.

The Greeks (Pagans mind you) contributed much, much more than muslims ever did. the Indians, Chinese, and Nordic people didn't do too badly either.

If you have been spending your time on websites that proclaim "everything came from Islam", then you are sadly mistaken. Very little came from Islam. Most of the modern world came from the Renaissance, which had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

1-When I say Islam ruled the world I dont mean it in a territorial sence but in the sence that it was the strongest Empire in the world up until the 1800s. Ask any historian they will tell you power vested in three world powers, and they were the Ottomans, and Moguls both Muslim Empires and China.
2-When I say the Western world rules today I mean most of the events going on in the world are dominated and controlled by Western countries. These countires include the U.S, E.U. and to some extent now Russia, or simple put it developed countries. This statment is not in a religious sence but a fact. I ask you as an Asian how much of the world depends on us and let me make it clear that I am well aware of the Asian giants China and India. The fact is they consider us poor and have taken it upon themselves to get nvolved in our internal matters.
3-Now as far as Islam having the answer to everything. I completely stand by it. Go and take your problem no matter what it is to any Ulema or any Islamic religious leader and I can gaurantee you they will give you a solution. One thing I must clear up is that I am saying this because I am Muslims, Chritians say the same about their religion, Hindus about their and so on, bascally its your belief.

When I say Islam contirbuting to science, again I stand by it. In he Quran their are many proven scientific methods, science especially when it come to medicine is especially mentioned in the Quran. And in the time of our Golden age or as I called it when we ruled the world advances were made in every aspect of life, from science, to math, to archtecture, to many more things. Now when you say advances had to do more with personal genius you are also right, but my point is they were Muslims and belonged to that nation. Lets take India for example, people dont say Abdul Kalam created India's nuclear weapons, but India created its weapons or say Sewag, Dhoni, Dravid and other members of the Indian cricket team won the world cup we say India won the world cup because it cums up everything(note these are just examples which might not be true). In some cases individuals are given credit and in some cases a nation is given credit for and individuals efforts. Now other nations and other religions most certainly did contribute to advancement but I am of the view that Islam contributed much more. Now you talk of the Renaissance, I ask you what is the meaning of the Renaissane. The purpose of the Renaissance was to get rid of the superstitions created by the church and bring a more open society. Now lets take Islam, Islam has no silly siperstitions, everything in the Quran is open to question and debate and all thing in the program can be proven and have been proven. As far as an open society or a more democratic society, I ask you how was Europe governed at the time, it was governed by religious laws and all those who were not of the religion were killed. Islamic society at the time was the most tolerant we had non-Muslims residing in our Empire, the only restiction on them was they paid more tax.
Let us get back to the part about the individual meaning more then the religion. Fine lets us take the individual and not the religion, then why is it today the religion is being blamed and not individuals.
One thing I msut clear up is being a Muslim I would promote my religion in a positive manner. I am sure you being of a different religion would promote your religion in a positive manner.

 

[Flintlock]

1-When I say Islam ruled the world I dont mean it in a territorial sence but in the sence that it was the strongest Empire in the world up until the 1800s. Ask any historian they will tell you power vested in three world powers, and they were the Ottomans, and Moguls both Muslim Empires and China.

Well, the world has changed. The Age of territorial empires is over, and that of corporate empires has begun.
Islam, or any religion for that matter, has little role to play in the modern world.
If you are hoping for a resurrection of the empires, with a revival of the gory and brutal wars that were necessitated for its survival, I don't see that happening.

2-When I say the Western world rules today I mean most of the events going on in the world are dominated and controlled by Western countries. These countires include the U.S, E.U. and to some extent now Russia, or simple put it developed countries. This statment is not in a religious sence but a fact. I ask you as an Asian how much of the world depends on us and let me make it clear that I am well aware of the Asian giants China and India. The fact is they consider us poor and have taken it upon themselves to get nvolved in our internal matters.

You did forget Japan. Japan might not have had a military empire, but they did have a corporate one, and garner tremendous resources. Same with China, and increasingly India.

In your previous posts, you were talking in religious terms. Maybe I am mistaken or perhaps you have changed your argument.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here. On one hand you talk about how Islam is perfect and will take over the world, and on the other hand you acknowledge that China (atheists) and Indians are rising powers.

3-Now as far as Islam having the answer to everything. I completely stand by it. Go and take your problem no matter what it is to any Ulema or any Islamic religious leader and I can gaurantee you they will give you a solution. One thing I must clear up is that I am saying this because I am Muslims, Chritians say the same about their religion, Hindus about their and so on, bascally its your belief.

Even hindus and christians don't believe that their religion has the answer to everything. If that was indeed the case, then the Islamic world would be eternally superior because they already know everything!!

Obviously, this is not the case. Learning and understanding the quran isn't helping Iranians to build the atomic bomb.

If the Gita had the answer to everything why would people study science, mathematics, philosophy and arts from outside?

In my personal opinion, people who claim to know the answer to everything are either deluded or lying.

When I say Islam contirbuting to science, again I stand by it. In he Quran their are many proven scientific methods, science especially when it come to medicine is especially mentioned in the Quran. And in the time of our Golden age or as I called it when we ruled the world advances were made in every aspect of life, from science, to math, to archtecture, to many more things. Now when you say advances had to do more with personal genius you are also right, but my point is they were Muslims and belonged to that nation. Lets take India for example, people dont say Abdul Kalam created India's nuclear weapons, but India created its weapons or say Sewag, Dhoni, Dravid and other members of the Indian cricket team won the world cup we say India won the world cup because it cums up everything(note these are just examples which might not be true). In some cases individuals are given credit and in some cases a nation is given credit for and individuals efforts. Now other nations and other religions most certainly did contribute to advancement but I am of the view that Islam contributed much more.

I seriously doubt the authenticity of the various claims that quran is scientifically accurate, but never mind that.

At the time of the so called golden age, Islamic scholars mainly collated information from various pre-existing cultures which they and conquered, and borrowed a lot from Europe. They learnt numbers and mathematics from the Indians, they borrowed paper from the Chinese, learn philosophy and architecture from the Greeks and Romans etc.
Obviously, it was a time of innovation, and some discoveries were also made.
There are several reasons for this, prosperity was one, the easy access to diverse sources of information was another, and the availability of talent was the third, etc. It certainly didn't happen because the inventors spent their nights poring over the quran.

Sure, the islamic "nation" (if it can be called that) can be given credit. Islam itself? Indirectly perhaps, for helping forge the armies that built these empires in the first place. Directly? I doubt it.

Now you talk of the Renaissance, I ask you what is the meaning of the Renaissane. The purpose of the Renaissance was to get rid of the superstitions created by the church and bring a more open society. Now lets take Islam, Islam has no silly siperstitions, everything in the Quran is open to question and debate and all thing in the program can be proven and have been proven. As far as an open society or a more democratic society, I ask you how was Europe governed at the time, it was governed by religious laws and all those who were not of the religion were killed. Islamic society at the time was the most tolerant we had non-Muslims residing in our Empire, the only restiction on them was they paid more tax.

There was no 'purpose' to the renaissance. the renaissance was nothing but a flowering of free inquiry and proliferation of arts and sciences, at the odds of the catholic church.

Islam has no silly superstitions? Lets see what I can remember offhand:

Bakri Id (animal sacrifice)
That self-flagellation that muslims in iraq and pakistan do.
Prohibition of images of most kinds.
The whole story about Muhammed flying to heaven with an angel (!!)
The "always pray towards mecca" rule.
The "stoning of the devil ritual" performed at mecca.
Praying 5 times a day (no more, no less) (Number 5 is sacred?)
Dietary restrictions like no pork.

Islamic world is still governed by religious laws, whereas Europe has moved beyond them.

What does Islam have to do with Renaissance?

Let us get back to the part about the individual meaning more then the religion. Fine lets us take the individual and not the religion, then why is it today the religion is being blamed and not individuals.

?? What does that mean? religion being blamed for what? individuals for what?

One thing I msut clear up is being a Muslim I would promote my religion in a positive manner. I am sure you being of a different religion would promote your religion in a positive manner.

Sure, we all have our agendas. My agenda is definitely to promote my country. But that doesn't mean that I give up reason and believe that "India is the beginning and end of everything".

I don't believe in much of what hinduism has to say, but I can't help having an emotional attachment with it. Its the same with many members here. They may not be all that religious, but they get insulted if their religion of birth is attacked.

 

[Karma]

The point is the reason why we see a struggle for ideology in a violent way is because outside forces want us to fight and divide us, now I am not going to get into the argument about foreign forces, war on Islam because that is already being discussed.

Because of outside world? Don't you people have brains and think on your own?

Now may be you are forgetting that Muslims ruled the world for 900 years from the time of the Holy Prophet till around the 1800s. The reason being Islamic laws and provisions were followed and the point is they worked.

Islam didn't rule. Muslims ruled. And not the entire world. It is not because of sharia, but military power. The sharia was there, because muslims ruled. You can not twist the facts.

The Western world has just started to rule and I doubt they will even rule for 900 years. The problem is with us when it comes to not being united.

Western world started to rule? what? Being not united is your problem, don't blame it on others.

Islam does not need to evolve, it is in its final form.

Final ? That is the problem.

Lets take our advances in medicines, math, chemistry, physics and I could go on and on.

Islam didn't contribute anything, but the individuals.

Dont talk about something you have no knowledge of.

No knowledge? It is the age of information. I may not know the exact verses. I have some idea about the concepts of Islam. If you think that the verses are important than the concept, then I can't help.

 

[Samudra]

OTA.

Off topic Alert.