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Secularism is not against Islam

So does Islam teach that other religions are inferior to Islam? Because this is tantamount to just that. Not accepting Islam means that ur a kafir or whatever?

One thing in Islam it teaches is to respect another religion, so others wouldn't disrespect yours, but that rule tends to be broken, if someone insults Islam then we get Jihadi mode "ON".

The word kafir is exegrated by non-Muslims, it's not really a bad word, but rather meaning non-believer, same as a Christian/Hindu/Jew would call Muslim, vice-versa.
 
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Well if Islam teaches to respect other religions, then Taliban, etc were were non Islamic. The point is you cannot enforce your beliefs on others. Mushy must put an end to people getting away with doing things in the name of Islam. Its govt that should react, not people in the name of Islam.

Free sex is a matter between two independent people, others have no right to enforce their beliefs on them.

*light hearted banter*--I dont call non Hindu's "Non-Believers" lol
 
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Taleban was any thing but Islamic it was a pure lunatic force comparing that mad menace to Islam is degrading Islam . Islam is a religion pf peace & is a beautiful religion Malay Islam is as much as my as it is YOUR,S yes friend PROPHET MOHEMMED(P.B.U.H) is as much as my PROPHET as he is yours Islam loves you & ALLAH loves you their are good & bad in every basket & some really basket case's mostly effected by the political disputes (which needs to be solved no doubt about it) brings in Islam in between Islam is the Deen of the treaty of Hudhaifia & not the media hyped taliban type medieval maniacs theory not even close & these media hyped taleban , bin laden , masood azar type crazy fellows have nothing to do with the beautiful religion of ISLAM so the bad guys on both ends does not wants you & me to know this trust me Friend Islam is a religion of peace however yes it has received very unfair & negative publicities from both east & west which should be stopped for better understanding of this beautiful religion. plus believe it or not but i have Hindu (Brahmans) relatives yes & mukharjees is their last name & they are my relatives in India yes its true & i have no problem saying this & that i love them a lot & enjoy time spent with them
thanks
 
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*light hearted banter*--I dont call non Hindu's "Non-Believers" lol

Kafir, i believe is an arabic term which refers to the people who believe neither of the 4 books.
 
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So does Islam teach that other religions are inferior to Islam? Because this is tantamount to just that. Not accepting Islam means that ur a kafir or whatever?
no you not understand, it is deference between islam and other religions,in other religions state and religion are seperate but in case of islam not
 
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Taleban was any thing but Islamic it was a pure lunatic force comparing that mad menace to Islam is degrading Islam . Islam is a religion pf peace & is a beautiful religion Malay Islam is as much as my as it is YOUR,S yes friend PROPHET MOHEMMED(P.B.U.H) is as much as my PROPHET as he is yours Islam loves you & ALLAH loves you their are good & bad in every basket & some really basket case's mostly effected by the political disputes (which needs to be solved no doubt about it) brings in Islam in between Islam is the Deen of the treaty of Hudhaifia & not the media hyped taliban type medieval maniacs theory not even close & these media hyped taleban , bin laden , masood azar type crazy fellows have nothing to do with the beautiful religion of ISLAM so the bad guys on both ends does not wants you & me to know this trust me Friend Islam is a religion of peace however yes it has received very unfair & negative publicities from both east & west which should be stopped for better understanding of this beautiful religion.
I have NO doubt whatsoever in what you said mate:tup: I agree it to be true. But the fanatics are ruining and i mean REALLY ruining the name of Islam. If people like you support such people in Pakistan, Pakistan will end up like Afghanistan, and Pakistan has way to much potential for that.

There has been a steady rise in extremism and radicalisation in Pakistan, you must have noticed that. Its upto the people living there to stop it. Instead i see them supporting it.

plus believe it or not but i have Hindu (Brahmans) relatives yes & mukharjees is their last name & they are my relatives in India yes its true & i have no problem saying this & that i love them a lot & enjoy time spent with them
thanks
Enjoy time with your relatives man, whether they be Hindu/Muslim/Jews or whatever.
 
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no you not understand, it is deference between islam and other religions,in other religions state and religion are seperate but in case of islam not
Which IMO is wrong, because then the state does not consider its own citizens equal. One who is a Muslim will be prefered over another, who is not.
 
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Which IMO is wrong, because then the state does not consider its own citizens equal. One who is a Muslim will be prefered over another, who is not.

The Treatment of Minorities - the Islamic Model
"Far from imposing Qur'anic laws on everybody, Islam permits and even encourages every group (Jewish, Christian or other) to establish its own tribunals presided over by its own judges. As far as issues of social and cultural autonomy are concerned, the safeguard of the rights of non-Muslims in Islamic territory goes even to the extent of giving them the liberty of practising customs entirely opposed to those of Islam,"
explains Syed Mumtaz Ali.

The theologians define Islam as belief in and practice of its creed that "there is no God, if not God Himself." In a more elaborate form Islam is defined as: the Belief in One God, in His Angels, in His Revealed Books, in His messengers and prophets, in the Last Day and Resurrection, and in the determination of good and evil by God.

This same definition is no less applicable to Muslim law from the point of view of international jurists.(1) All else stems from this foundation. Islam enjoins on its followers a constant struggle for the well-being of the entire humanity, as the Qur'an affirms that: "... mankind was but one nation, but differed later."(2) (Qur'an 23:53)

Basic Notions

With this aim in mind - an aim it shares with international law - Islam adheres to certain basic notions. These are:

1) With respect to life in this world, Muslim jurists have always advocated extending the greatest equality possible to both "relatives" (Muslims) and "strangers" (non-Muslims). However, with respect to the life of the Hereafter, the believers and the unbelievers cannot be equals. The former will be granted paradise while the latter will inherit Hell. (3)

2) The Qur'an (2:256) prescribes religious tolerance by clearly and emphatically stating that there should be no compulsion in religion. This means that non-Muslim residents of, as well as travellers who are travelling through, a Muslim state have assurances regarding their safety and their liberty of conscience.(4)

3) In relation to issues of hospitality and asylum, there is a well-known verse of the Qur'an (9:6) which states that: "And if anyone of the pagans seeketh asylum (O Muhammad), then give him asylum ... and afterwards convey him to his place of safety ..." The entire fabric of Muslim international law is intended for non-Muslims. Under Islamic law, Muslims, regardless of geographical location constitute one single Ummah. The Qur'an (10:19) affirms: "Verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood." Consequently founders of Muslim International law sought to codify as to how to deal with other, that is, non-Muslim, states. Justice, even to the detriment of self-interest (Qur'an, iv:134), is enjoined on Muslims in all their conduct. This includes the conduct of Muslims in Foreign and War offices.(5) It is but natural that one should make a distinction, and even a discrimination, between the near and the distant, between the 'relative' and the 'stranger'.

Therefore Islamic law does make a distinction among different non-Muslim communities. It divides them into what might be called: 'developed' and 'primitive'; or, those who believe in One God and follow Divine laws revealed to the founders of their religions, and those who do not operate on the basis of revealed law (such as idolaters, pagans, atheists, animists, etc.). Everyone - both developed and primitive - is a subject who enjoys equal protection with regard to liberty of conscience and life. Yet, a Muslim in his private life approaches each group differently. For example, a Muslim man can marry a 'developed' non-Muslim (Christian, Jewish) woman, but not a 'primitive' pagan. A Muslim woman, on the other hand, cannot be the wife of a non-Muslim irrespective of whatever category (developed or primitive) to which he may belong.(6)

As is true in every other political or social system, and as was stated earlier in this paper, Islam makes a distinction between 'relatives' and 'strangers', but there are two features of this differentiation which are peculiar to Islam:

1) The first feature concerns the facility with which one can cross the barrier between stranger and relative. Islam emphasizes the realm of ideas - a thing which depends on the choice of human beings - as the source of the themes which bind together and unite members of society. Islam rejects mere accidents of nature and hazards of birth (such as colour of skin, place of birth, language or blood relationship) as factors which should bind society.

2) Secondly, there is only a marginal inequality between the two categories ('developed' and 'primitive') in relation to treatment with respect to the affairs of the world. (7)

Equality Principle

The principle of law at the heart of international relations is repeated in every compendium of Muslim law. This principle maintains that: "in sufferings (i.e., affairs) of this world, Muslims and non-Muslims are equal and alike." Even the most orthodox Muslim authors of international law are all unanimous on this basic principle.

This approach to international law serves the function of a pivot. It is a point which balances all the detailed rules regulating the protection of the spectrum of legitimate interests of the minorities. They are the 'protected' community of non-Muslims.

Minority Autonomy: Judicial, Social, Cultural

One of the most characteristic features of Islam is the award of judicial, social and cultural autonomy to these communities. As a result, they are routinely referred to as the dhimmis, in the technical terminology of the law. The word dhimma means a compact which a believer agrees to respect and the violation of which makes him liable to dham (blame).(8) The other meaning of the word is guarantee of safety (aman).(9) Legally, the term refers to certain rights which must be protected by the state.(10) The people whose rights are protected are known as dhimmis or protected subjects.

Let us take a quick look at the nature of judicial autonomy under Islamic law. Far from imposing Qur'anic laws on everybody, Islam permits and even encourages every group (Jewish, Christian, Magian or other) to establish its own tribunals presided over by its own judges. Each group should seek to apply its laws to all branches of human affairs.(11) Thus, judicial autonomy is intended to encompass not only individual, private matters (involving personal status) but also for all the affairs of life: civil, penal, religious and others.(12)

As far as issues of social and cultural autonomy are concerned, the safeguard of the rights of non-Muslims in Islamic territory goes even to the extent of giving them the liberty of practising customs entirely opposed to those of Islam. For instance, manufacture, importation, sale and consumption of alcoholic drinks is permitted to non-Muslims. The same is true of games of chance, marriage with close relatives, contract entailing interest, etc. (13)

To establish liberty of conscience in the world was one of the aims and objectives of the Prophet Muhammad. Therefore the concept of 'holy war' in Islam cannot be employed for the purpose of imposing Islam on non-Muslims or compelling anyone to become Muslim. The spirit of Jihad is one of sacrifice to ensure that the word of God and the practices entailed by that word are not extinguished and, therefore, are available for those who wish to follow the Divine Word and concomitant practices. Waging war for any other reason is illegal. There is absolutely no question of waging war in order to compel people to embrace Islam. This would be an unholy war.(14)

Islamic law expressly recognizes the right of non-Muslims to preserve their beliefs. However, while it categorically forbids all recourse to compulsion in converting others to Islam, Islamic law maintains a rigorous discipline among its own adherents.

For instance, a Christian or Jewish wife of a Muslim is given her liberty to conserve, practise and act in accordance with what her religion permits. Consequently, she may go to church or synagogue, drink wine, gamble, etc. (15)

On the other hand, some of these liberties are not extended to Muslims. They are not permitted alcohol, nor can they gamble. Nonetheless, one should not forget the great practical importance attached to the fact that Muslims obey their system of law as something of Divine origin, and not merely the will of the majority of the leaders of the country. Due to its Divine origin, there is greater stability in the Muslim law than any other secular legislation of the world. (16)

The foregoing discussion presents the main features of a general picture of Muslim law dealing with non-Muslims. That discussion draws heavily from two main sources: Introduction to Islam and The Muslim Conduct of State both by Dr. M. Hamidullah. For a better understanding and a more comprehensive coverage of the subject, I would highly recommend and refer you to these two books. They are widely recognized as authoritative works of long standing.

Much of the following discussion also is based on material from these two works.

In The Muslim Conduct of State, Dr. Hamidullah points out, with respect to the Islamic model for treating minorities, that: "I have tried to explain the reasons of these rules. I am not writing on what, according to modem average Muslims, ought to be the Muslim law, but what has always been considered to be the Muslim law."(17) It is always useful to remind ourselves to make a distinction between the Muslim Law and the laws of the Muslims. Before I proceed to the next section of my paper, let me cite a passage from another author, Professor Sheikh Showkat Hussain, who in his own way reflects the position outlined by Dr. Hamidullah in the previous discussion. Dr. Hussain states:

"The dhimmis or the protected subjects enjoy protection of life, liberty, property, and honour.(18) Full freedom of conscience is given to them.(19) They are exempted from compulsory military service and payment of zakat.(20) However, their able bodied males have to pay jizyah in lieu of military service. Islamic state deals with the dhimmis of all denominations as members of a community, not as individuals. Shari'ah governs the relations of the dhimmis with both individual Muslims and the Islamic state on the basis of religious distinction. All the internal relations of the dhimmis are left to be regulated by the laws of the religion to which they adhere. Hence it (the Shari'ah or Islam) regards the adherents of each religion as a community controlled by guardians of its sacred traditions. The individual dhimmis are to be obliged by the Islamic state to follow its tradition relating to internal relationship of the individuals and the community.(21) They are exempted from application of Islamic penal laws to the extent these are not in conformity with their religious perceptions.(22) Due to this unique position which the dhimmis enjoy in Islamic law their legal status has been subject of a great controversy." (23)
 
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Well if that is true, then none of the Islamic states practice the 'real' Islam. IF you live by all stated above, it would be Utopia.

But having laws like a woman needs to have 4 males present to classify a rape as a rape is disgusting and many more such things.
 
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Well if that is true, then none of the Islamic states practice the 'real' Islam. IF you live by all stated above, it would be Utopia.

But having laws like a woman needs to have 4 males present to classify a rape as a rape is disgusting and many more such things.
no dear it is our history,give me example of a single non muslim state who give muslims minorites same rights as islam give to minorietes,in case of rape today exist medical test islam not against this because in islam exist ijtehad in other religions not have this possibility
 
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no dear it is our history,give me example of a single non muslim state who give muslims minorites same rights as islam give to minorietes,in case of rape today exist medical test islam not against this because in islam exist ijtehad in other religions not have this possibility

Case in point, India. There are NO, and i mean NO discriminations against Muslims. Simply because there are SO MANY muslims. Its a normal part of life. There was a report Sachar committee i think, which said that Muslims in India are very poor, but they still get the same rights as any other religion would get.

There is no discrimination from the Government of India towards any person of any religion.

And dont let me begin on the rights given to other religions in Pakistan. Islam must be good, but the countries are not practicing it right.
 
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Case in point, India. There are NO, and i mean NO discriminations against Muslims. Simply because there are SO MANY muslims. Its a normal part of life. There was a report Sachar committee i think, which said that Muslims in India are very poor, but they still get the same rights as any other religion would get.

There is no discrimination from the Government of India towards any person of any religion.

And dont let me begin on the rights given to other religions in Pakistan. Islam must be good, but the countries are not practicing it right.

:lol1: No discrimination against Muslims or another faith in India, please don't make me pull out articles to show you the other side I'm pretty sure you know it.
 
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Haha in India they can't even define secularism. They subsidize the hajj and give some Muslim Peronal Laws which interfere in domestic affairs and call it secularism. That's Appeasement of a select group of Muslims and in selected areas. The amount of religion in their politics is self-evident of a theocratic society living under the garb of the often trumpeted secularism.

I'm a big fan of secularism and at least for now I'm against anyone attempting that Utopia described above. Utopia's are hard to achieve. Islamic society is tearing away from the threads. Try to do the simple right things. All those complex things separate judiciary, separate laws, separate everything for the hundreds of religions out there, are unattainable. At least not in a screwed up system we got today. We will fail.

Secularism is easy to implement and fix certain things for now. No need for separate laws, just have ONE law. It won't be perfect but it would be a LAW. Lawlessness is a common trademark of Muslim countries, ever figured why?
 
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You expect that they would legalise Sharia here?
Cuz that would be against secularism. The state stays away from religion. They dont tell muslims that if they pray, they will be fined. They dont say that the PM, or President CANNOT be Muslims, they dont say our army chief is not a muslim, and i can pull all sorts of nonsense $hit in othe Islamic countries that do this. So yes indeed, India is secular.
 
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AsSalam oAlaikum Brothers.
I mean no disrespect to any poster and greatly value your opinions.I tried to read through the whole thread yesterday, and lost the plot half way through.I atribute this to my age and again apologize if this causes consternation.
My humble opinion is that if by secularism you mean that the state function is not ruled by religious teachings, then there is no place for secularism in islam.
The reason is that Islam is a complete way of life. It teaches you a social order,respect for other religions, mutual tolerance, and an economic system. There are rules for divorce, conduct in trade, inheritance and other rulings which help us in running the Government. there is a democratic system however it may not be the same that we are used to today. There is a process of Ijtehad,on issues which are not adequately clarified in Quran and Sunnah. However, Ijtehad cna only bedone in the light of the Quran And Sunnah
The problem which I keep on harping about is that the Muslim Ummah comprises the worst tyrants and bigots in todays world. There is no Government which can truely call itself Islamic. While the laws may be there, the spiritis not and therefore every thing is distorted to suite the rulers devious means.Why do we have this? Because we are Muslims in name only. We follow the religion only if it suits us.We have stopped reading the Quran and following the Prophet (SAW) Sunnah. However with due respects, the word of Allah is absolute and does not change to conform to opinions of short sighted human beings. Whereas secularism sounds good, I am afraid we have a system which is complete and this is the system which we have to follow if we want to call ourselves Muslims. We need Allahs(SWT) blessings, support and protection not the other way around.
Wa Salam
Araz
 
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