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Secularism is not against Islam

Religion is not the base line… it’s the HATE behind that. All religions are equal, some how That is GOD Who is behind all SUN MOON FIRE’s so why don’t we take it as personal thing?

This is not necessary that you always make ppl happy; some times reaction became stronger and opposite.

What is behind the killing of innocent ON the name of Politics (National/International)?
 
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Every religion has claimed to be a way of life,

Not every religion claims to be the way of life. For example, Moses was only presented with Ten Commandments, which were guidelines and certainly not a complete way of life. Christian church is basically established upon Paul’s teachings and not exactly what the Christ said or did. If you go through the New Testaments you would realize that Christian church views Christ as someone who merely gave the guidelines but not a way of life. Basically, according to Christian literature, Christ was born as a Jew and died as a Jew without giving a complete way of life. Only Islam, among the major religions, provides a complete way of life.

but our country [Pakistan] is not just for Muslims. We have a minority that numbers in the millions. We'd be sidelining so many Pakistanis by adopting an Islamic government.

There are only two countries on the face of earth that came into being upon a religious ideology: Israel and Pakistan. Pakistan was indeed created as a Muslim nation. Anyone familiar with the basic principles of Islamic guidelines knows that the rights of minorities are protected and safeguarded in an ideal Islamic state. So it would be unfair to suggest that if Pakistan becomes a truly Islamic state the minorities will be sidelined or abused. The problem is not with Islamic principles; rather the problem is with the people who have anointed themselves as the guardians of Islam.

I am for a secular Pakistan, not because I don’t trust an Islamic government in protecting and safeguarding the rights of minorities, but rather I don’t trust the people who consider themselves to be the gatekeepers of Islam. I cannot trust their judgments, because they are increasingly polluting the Islamic teachings with their own perverted interpretations and local rules and customs/cultures.

What we need are just laws and justice won't be against Islam, either.

Not exactly. The problem is not that we do not have just laws and justice, or if they are in conflict with the Islamic principals, rather the problem is they are not applied uniformly or in accordance with their spirit.
 
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If you go through the New Testaments you would realize that Christian church views Christ as someone who merely gave the guidelines but not a way of life.

As a Christian I disagree, Christ and his commandments are central to the faith and the apostles insturctions only assis the believer in beign "Christ" like in thought and deed. Jesus Sermon onthe mount, commandments, and parables all add up to way of life tha thas stood the test of time.

Only Islam, among the major religions, provides a complete way of life.

Jews, Christians, Animist, Zorostarians, Wiccans, Buddhist etc would all dissagree with you.

There are only two countries on the face of earth that came into being upon a religious ideology: Israel and Pakistan.

What criteria are you using? Iran would claim it was founded as a religious society, as were several European countries, America had its roots in religion etc.

Anyone familiar with the basic principles of Islamic guidelines knows that the rights of minorities are protected and safeguarded in an ideal Islamic state.

Excpet the right to practice all tenets of the faith openly, excpet the right to marry anyone of any faith male or female, expcet for the right to particiapte as part of the ruling elite etc. Islam uses a mor eindirect aproach to control than some but the controls are still there.
 
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As a Christian I disagree, Christ and his commandments are central to the faith and the apostles insturctions only assis the believer in beign "Christ" like in thought and deed. Jesus Sermon onthe mount, commandments, and parables all add up to way of life tha thas stood the test of time.



Jews, Christians, Animist, Zorostarians, Wiccans, Buddhist etc would all dissagree with you.



What criteria are you using? Iran would claim it was founded as a religious society, as were several European countries, America had its roots in religion etc.



Excpet the right to practice all tenets of the faith openly, excpet the right to marry anyone of any faith male or female, expcet for the right to particiapte as part of the ruling elite etc. Islam uses a mor eindirect aproach to control than some but the controls are still there.

A very well argued post Zraver ........Unfortunately the guy you are arguing with has been banned :lol:
 
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Do'h!

well my central theme remains valid,God is who he reveals him self to you to be. A hindu/Christian/Moslem who truly seeks after God will find his laws written on their hearts. A person who simply uses religion as a recipe book to gain acess to the here after or excuse worldidlydeedswillnot meet God. Or so I beleive.
 
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Do'h!

well my central theme remains valid,God is who he reveals him self to you to be. A hindu/Christian/Moslem who truly seeks after God will find his laws written on their hearts. A person who simply uses religion as a recipe book to gain acess to the here after or excuse worldidlydeedswillnot meet God. Or so I beleive.

That is exactly what I believe, You are judged for your actions, Let give the credit where is it is due, God is not some strict authortarin nor a relaxed hippie. he is the all knowing and all understanding isnt he, and I am sure he doesnt deal in absolutes.

Organized Religion for me always has been a means to create zombie's, No one needs anybody help to understand god, it happens so very easily; like the first time you are geniunly in trouble.lolo
 
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That is exactly what I believe, You are judged for your actions, Let give the credit where is it is due, God is not some strict authortarin nor a relaxed hippie. he is the all knowing and all understanding isnt he, and I am sure he doesnt deal in absolutes.

Organized Religion for me always has been a means to create zombie's, No one needs anybody help to understand god, it happens so very easily; like the first time you are geniunly in trouble.lolo

Any one who has read any book of psychology, will know about 'Id'. This is the instinct which is the prime mover of mens actions. It is the 'ego', that is worry about what other people think that keeps men from doing what they intinctively want.

In the historical times, if you were powerful, you would take what you want from the weak ( still true to a large extent). Some form of laws or restrictions were needed to make the society fit for every one including the weak to live. Hamurabi the king of Elam is the oldest law giver, he didnot claim to be a prophet. But all subsequent law givers such as Zarathushtra, Moses, Budha, Mahavera, Jesus and finally our holy Prophet ( PBUH) are prophets and claimed divine inspiration.

The laws these great people brought applied equally to every one regardless of their status, colour or nationality.Most of these were 'Do' and 'Dont.

I therefore disagree that every one can find 'God' and organized religion creates 'Zombies'. Only a certain kind of person who has a special quality can find 'God' by hinself. These are the Saints, Sufis or Rishis. For ordinary mortals like myself, a kind of living code is needed so that every one can go about his/her daily chores without fear. Simplest example are traffic signals. Every one has experienced the chaos that ensues if traffic signals are out of order.Thus most organised relgions perform an essential function in regulating a society.

It is the type of people that become leaders that is the root cause of the problem. For example at least two or the great relgions; Budhism and Chritstianity; essence of the teaching is non voilence. However, if the teachings were followed how could Kanishka create the Kushan empire or how could the Crusades ever take place. It is basic instinct or 'Id" that one wants to have what he covets and use religion as an excuse to do so.

Islam on the other hand was never a pacifist relgion and always allowed an eye for an eye. However, holy Quran clearly states "La ikraha fiddin". Meaning there is no compulsion in religion. Nevertheless we find that in NWFP, even barber shops are being targeted because without barber you couldnt shave your beard.

I believe that the real reason why one finds religious people generally ruthless and uncompromising are two.

1. Generally very intelligent minds do not go for relgious education. Therefore majority of the religious scholars have no capacity to interpret. They think that strict following of the rituals is what religion is all about. This is not true,
spirit of the relgion is compassion; which is lacking in majority of the zealots.

2. This follows from the first. Because most of the religioud scholars are ignorant of any thing else but what they were taught. They are unable to deal with the changing times and want to revert to a utopian time. This is again impossible because at least in case of Islam, there was 'Divine intervention' which cleansed the spirit of the whole society. In their ignorance these people want to forcefully impose what they think is 'God's' command on every one because this will guarantee a plce in paradise.

I am not a religious scholar, the above is my personal opinion and should be taken as such.
 
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Niaz,

My view of God, is only that my view. I have been able to pray to god, I need not go to a temple, I dont need anybody to teach me about him and that doesnt mean that I know about him. My mother is a very firm believer in organized religion, She regularly visits temple, That doesnt mean she is a zombie to me, you like my mom have the capacity to understand religion as well as humanity. the day you forget to understand and feel humanity, whats the use of you being religious. I have seen a lot of people do that in this world, You can take the Gujurat carnage as an example, or the shia- sunni voilence, is that why god created us, they are/were kill each other, what happened during partition. I rather not have that, but then again there are good people to, who treat it as a way of life, set of laws by which they can live
I have been able to fear, respect and ask for guidance from god. Just by closing my eyes and praying to him. I know the basics of a good human being, and if i do that with truest of my heart. HE will be happy,

He is greater than us, his love and understanding, reasoning, ability to look at the larger picture, morality as well as his punishments is beyond our comprehension. The day anybody thinks god deals in absolutes, they are wrong; and thats what is happening to the world. My view is just my view, and my path for salvation; yours like my mother can be different and I respect that.
 
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[R]e[b]e[L];49880 said:
laugh all you will but what i say is true! I hate communism/capitalism/secularism/racism...

Is hatred a characteristic of a religion? Or rather love should be?
 
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Niaz,

My view of God, is only that my view. I have been able to pray to god, I need not go to a temple, I dont need anybody to teach me about him and that doesnt mean that I know about him. My mother is a very firm believer in organized religion, She regularly visits temple, That doesnt mean she is a zombie to me, you like my mom have the capacity to understand religion as well as humanity. the day you forget to understand and feel humanity, whats the use of you being religious. I have seen a lot of people do that in this world, You can take the Gujurat carnage as an example, or the shia- sunni voilence, is that why god created us, they are/were kill each other, what happened during partition. I rather not have that, but then again there are good people to, who treat it as a way of life, set of laws by which they can live
I have been able to fear, respect and ask for guidance from god. Just by closing my eyes and praying to him. I know the basics of a good human being, and if i do that with truest of my heart. HE will be happy,

He is greater than us, his love and understanding, reasoning, ability to look at the larger picture, morality as well as his punishments is beyond our comprehension. The day anybody thinks god deals in absolutes, they are wrong; and thats what is happening to the world. My view is just my view, and my path for salvation; yours like my mother can be different and I respect that.


Well said! Very well said! How can stupid human beings claim to understand god(s), even try to interpret god(s)? The motivation behind is but (mostly) for secular purpose.
 
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No secularism is not against Islam at all in secularism you have many good things too like in my country Canada & our neighboring U.S.A you have one of the best built mosques Islamic centers you have Muslim halal foods also i think secularism & Islam can live peacefully if we give it a chance.
Peace :toast:
 
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No secularism is not against Islam at all in secularism you have many good things too like in my country Canada & our neighboring U.S.A you have one of the best built mosques Islamic centers you have Muslim halal foods also i think secularism & Islam can live peacefully if we give it a chance.
Peace :toast:

well the first question is: how you define secularism?
 
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State should not be involved in Religion. Thereby also resulting that the state does not favour any single religion.
 
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Secularism and. Islam

Secularism may be accepted in a Christian society but it can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society. Christianity is devoid of a shari`ah or a comprehensive system of life to which its adherents should be committed. The New Testament itself divides life into two parts: one for God, or religion, the other for Caesar, or the state: "Render unto Caesar things which belong to Caesar, and render unto God things which belong to God" (Matthew 22:21). As such, a Christian could accept secularism without any qualms of conscience. Furthermore, Westerners, especially Christians, have good reasons to prefer a secular regime to a religious one. Their experience with "religious regimes" - as they knew them - meant the rule of the clergy, the despotic authority of the Church, and the resulting decrees of excommunication and the deeds of forgiveness, i.e. letters of indulgence.

For Muslim societies, the acceptance of secularism means something totally different; i.e. as Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (`ibadah) and legislation (Shari`ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari`ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions; It is indeed a false claim that Shariah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: "Say! Do you know better than Allah?" (2:140).
For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari`ah is downright riddah. The silence of the masses in the Muslim world about this deviation has been a major transgression and a clear-cut instance of disobedience which have produces a sense of guilt, remorse, and inward resentment, all of which have generated discontent, insecurity, and hatred among committed Muslims because such deviation lacks legality. Secularism is compatible with the Western concept of God which maintains that after God had created the world, He left it to look after itself. In this sense, God’s relationship with the world is like that of a watchmaker with a watch: he makes it then leaves it to function without any need for him. This concept is inherited from Greek philosophy, especially that of Aristotle who argued that God neither controls nor knows anything about this world. This is a helpless God as described by Will Durant. There is no wonder that such a God leaves people to look after their own affairs. How can He legislate for them when He is ignorant of their affairs? This concept is totally different from that of Muslims. We Muslims believe that Allah (SWT) is the sole Creator and Sustainer of the Worlds. One Who "…takes account of every single thing) (72:28); that He is omnipotent and omniscient; that His mercy and bounties encompasses everyone and suffice for all. In that capacity, Allah (SWT) revealed His divine guidance to humanity, made certain things permissible and others prohibited, commanded people observe His injunctions and to judge according to them. If they do not do so, then they commit kufr, aggression, and transgression."
 
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So does Islam teach that other religions are inferior to Islam? Because this is tantamount to just that. Not accepting Islam means that ur a kafir or whatever?
 
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