Saab adds GaN AESA co-dev to Make in India Gripen pitch

[GURU DUTT]

In 1939, the Spitfire Mk I was 40 % more expensive than the PZL P-11c...
View attachment 310060 View attachment 310061

so are we living in 2016 or 1939

thing is tejas is as good as Grippen while MK1A is as good as GrippenE/NG but with more than twice the price and since we are not a rich nation like sweden we cant afford it we rather have two LCAS MK1A than a single Grippen E cause the primarry objective of LCA is a Point Defnce fighter with limited strike capbillity and MK1A with EL2052+P5+Derby+I Derby ER is more than enof for that + the fact we dont have to be dependent on sweden for maintainence and the fact that USA & Israel anyday can offer more than what sweden can ever hope too

 

[zebra7]

You make assumptions that HAL is an organisation which is actually functional.
It may be that instead it is a dysfunctional organisation. only time will tell.

No actually you are making an assumption that HAL is a dyfuctional organisation. Only things people can cry that such slow production of LCA, but they forgot the number of MKI, they are building, the number of MIrrage 2000 UPG they are upgrading, the number of Migs they are servicing and the number of LCH, Dhruv, and Rudra, hawk it is making. For you HAL is a state owned aeronautic company, and LCA Tejas is not developed by HAL rather its ADA which comes under DRDO, and HAL is the lead integrator. Visit the LCA Tejas sticky thread in Indian Defence forum for more.

I think the Indigenous turbo fan engine program is best forgotten.
It has not produced anything useful so far.

Kaveri Engine, is the engine around which the LCA Tejas is being desinged, and GTRE is developing it. Kaveri engine was the proof of concept of the turbofan engine, and now since all problems have been solved, what is left is the supersonic flight test on the test bed such as MIG-29 in which one engine of the MIG-29 would be swapped with the kaveri, and after which the real engine, based on the Kaveri tech would be build, and it should be completed around 2024. GE 404 or 414 would be used initially because no unproven engine is used to power the unproven airframe, thus only the proven engine is used to power the unproven Airframe, and unproven engine is used to power the proven engine. Hope you understand it. BTW the turbofan engine massproduced based on the Kaveri engine would be 100+ KN thrust.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

No actually you are making an assumption that HAL is a dyfuctional organisation. Only things people can cry that such slow production of LCA, but they forgot the number of MKI, they are building, the number of MIrrage 2000 UPG they are upgrading, the number of Migs they are servicing and the number of LCH, Dhruv, and Rudra, hawk it is making. For you HAL is a state owned aeronautic company, and LCA Tejas is not developed by HAL rather its ADA which comes under DRDO, and HAL is the lead integrator. Visit the LCA Tejas sticky thread in Indian Defence forum for more.

Kaveri Engine, is the engine around which the LCA Tejas is being desinged, and GTRE is developing it. Kaveri engine was the proof of concept of the turbofan engine, and now since all problems have been solved, what is left is the supersonic flight test on the test bed such as MIG-29 in which one engine of the MIG-29 would be swapped with the kaveri, and after which the real engine, based on the Kaveri tech would be build, and it should be completed around 2024. GE 404 or 414 would be used initially because no unproven engine is used to power the unproven airframe, thus only the proven engine is used to power the unproven Airframe, and unproven engine is used to power the proven engine. Hope you understand it. BTW the turbofan engine massproduced based on the Kaveri engine would be 100+ KN thrust.

I don't make any assumptions, I am just saying that the reason the Tejjjas is so delayed could be that the organisation behind its development is less than optimal.
If that is so, (and it may be untrue), then the organisation may not be able to do a follow on project faster.

Until the Kaveri engine is proven, it is still unproven.
Nothing to boast about.

 

[Agent_47]

Perhaps, but they could continue a LCA-track with indigenous weapons and joint ventures while adding another western fighter integrated with European and U.S weapons. In fact the Gripen will also come with a Brazilian weapons fit and Israeli avionics/helmet. That's one point, to buy an aircraft other countries already funded combat capabilities on.

But why ? why make maintenance more complicated than what already is ? (Rafale,MKI,M2K,Mig29,Jagar,LCA+) @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

Gripen E/NG does fundamentally offer better range and weapons load, but of course if that is not required then it has no merit. Adding a twin-store launcher (to Tejas as suggested) is often problematic and the very few fighter types who adopted this method is flying with flight performance restrictions.

Comparison of gripen is with rafale not LCA. LCA is designed up as replacement for Mig 21 mainly point defence role. Gripen is suppose to fill in rafale capabilities in numbers not LCA which is perfect for its role.

Speculating, perhaps the Rafale track is too costly for the large numbers needed. A sign here is the unwillingness to commit to 126 aircraft. While Mirage 2000 is now being upgraded its capability and weapons fit is not that amazing for the future to come and eventually those airframes will retire both due to age and high cost of further modernization.

Upgraded Mirage 2000 is good enough till 2035. To replace (M2K+Jauger+M29 = 12 sqd) we are working on AMCA fifth gen project, Gripen can never fill its shoes.

That's one point, to buy an aircraft other countries already funded combat capabilities on.

But that's against the point anyway, the point is bringing in more capability without having to fund much more development/integration.

This is not a European airforce crying for funds, we are already fifth largest airforce operating 700+ advanced fighters with real threat perceptions. In the long run money is not a problem, yearly 10+% increase in defence budget has become normal. We are ready to chip in $4 billion as R$D to make a custom variant of PAKFA. I assume its is costlier than entire R&D of Gripen program.

The current dilemma has to with the monumental cost of committing rafale in large number and setting up production line in house. It made new govt to push for immediate rafale and lets wait and see tactic about future numbers. That made IAF nervous and they are trying out various options. IMHO committing large number of LCA mk2 and ordering 2-3 rafale sqd in batches when time is right should be the way to go.

 

[zebra7]

I don't make any assumptions, I am just saying that the reason the Tejjjas is so delayed could be that the organisation behind its development is less than optimal.
If that is so, (and it may be untrue), then the organisation may not be able to do a follow on project faster.

That's why I suggest you to visit the proper LCA Tejas Sticky thread, before making any impressions. There are many reasons for the delay. And most important LCA project -- it is the project to close the technological difference, and to make the whole Aerospace industry in the country for which, the country have to work on the following technology such as FADEEC, FBW, Turbofan Engine, Composite, Indegenous MMR and that too at a small budget and resources, and having less knowledge,.and lack of equipments, institutions, budget, engineers, scientists. And in this whole learning process build a 4th Generatiion Fighter plane.

LCA have survived from many difficulties -- Import lobies, tech denial, funds stopage etc

And why it was so slow development another reason was the Holistic approach, so that no mishaps occur during the testing and the development phase, because any Mishaps (Not even drastic mishaps/accident of the Gripen due to faulty FBW) would directly send the whole project to the GALLOW.

Until the Kaveri engine is proven, it is still unproven.
Nothing to boast about.

What is important is that how many OEMs is capable of building turbofan engine for the combat plane, and you can easily count on your fingers of which two are in US (GE, and Pratt and Whitney), 2 in Russia, and 2 in Europe (Snerma and Eurojet) and no one is gonna share their secrets to anyone. And the budget of development of the turbofan engine such as Kaveri was 2 Billion and that too in Parts is 5 times less than the contemporary project in the whole world.

Heck SAAB don't have any Turbofan engine. And how many countries in the world could build their own Turbofan engine of its own.

Why to feel proud, because GTRE have solve the mistery puzzle to build the turbofan engine, and have already have a working engine, which have completed the high altitude test, and though we have the GE engine, the ADA could fly the LCA with the suboptimal kaveri engine, just like what Chinese did with there indegenous engine.

I don't make any assumptions, I am just saying

So let me make an assumption that Gripen would be the last combat plane which sweeden would develop, and soon the SAAB would be acquired by some Indian company like TATA, Mahindra, Reliance, Birla and would build trucks, civil planes, small planes, avionics, sensors in India.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That's why I suggest you to visit the proper LCA Tejas Sticky thread, before making any impressions. There are many reasons for the delay. And most important LCA project -- it is the project to close the technological difference, and to make the whole Aerospace industry in the country for which, the country have to work on the following technology such as FADEEC, FBW, Turbofan Engine, Composite, Indegenous MMR and that too at a small budget and resources, and having less knowledge,.and lack of equipments, institutions, budget, engineers, scientists. And in this whole learning process build a 4th Generatiion Fighter plane.

LCA have survived from many difficulties -- Import lobies, tech denial, funds stopage etc

And why it was so slow development another reason was the Holistic approach, so that no mishaps occur during the testing and the development phase, because any Mishaps (Not even drastic mishaps/accident of the Gripen due to faulty FBW) would directly send the whole project to the GALLOW.




What is important is that how many OEMs is capable of building turbofan engine for the combat plane, and you can easily count on your fingers of which two are in US (GE, and Pratt and Whitney), 2 in Russia, and 2 in Europe (Snerma and Eurojet) and no one is gonna share their secrets to anyone. And the budget of development of the turbofan engine such as Kaveri was 2 Billion and that too in Parts is 5 times less than the contemporary project in the whole world.

Heck SAAB don't have any Turbofan engine. And how many countries in the world could build their own Turbofan engine of its own.

Why to feel proud, because GTRE have solve the mistery puzzle to build the turbofan engine, and have already have a working engine, which have completed the high altitude test, and though we have the GE engine, the ADA could fly the LCA with the suboptimal kaveri engine, just like what Chinese did with there indegenous engine.



So let me make an assumption that Gripen would be the last combat plane which sweeden would develop, and soon the SAAB would be acquired by some Indian company like TATA, Mahindra, Reliance, Birla and would build trucks, civil planes, small planes, avionics, sensors in India.

Nope, SAAB is looking at the future already.

Sweden has produced fighter jet engines since 1952...
Gripen C/D uses the RM12 engine (based on F404) from Volvo Flygmotor (now part of GKN Aerospace) and GKN designs a lot of parts for other manufacturers like Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, Snecma och General Electric.
They are a subcontractor for the F414 as well.
They also do critical parts of the Ariane 5 rocket engine. sweden has one of the centers of excellence.
Certainly we have, and have had competency on jet engine, even if most engines are based on existing designs.

Even if You can fly with the Kaveri, there are a lot of things that need to happen if the engine is to be useful. It should have long life and have acceptable service costs.
Failures should be detectable so You don't lose lots of aircrafts due to engine failures.

 

[zebra7]

Nope, SAAB is looking at the future already.

Sweden has produced fighter jet engines since 1952...
Gripen C/D uses the RM12 engine (based on F404) from Volvo Flygmotor (now part of GKN Aerospace) and GKN designs a lot of parts for other manufacturers like Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, Snecma och General Electric.
They are a subcontractor for the F414 as well.
They also do critical parts of the Ariane 5 rocket engine. sweden has one of the centers of excellence.
Certainly we have, and have had competency on jet engine, even if most engines are based on existing designs.

Even if You can fly with the Kaveri, there are a lot of things that need to happen if the engine is to be useful. It should have long life and have acceptable service costs.
Failures should be detectable so You don't lose lots of aircrafts due to engine failures.

Sir, RM12 is GE F404 engine with highter thrust similar to F404 IN20 engine license produced by Rolls Royce, and GE don't allow even a single bold to be modified without proper approval of the OEM.

Leave aside all the technical stuff, tell me honestly, LCA is getting orders from IAF and InAF, and number of order would be high even without the exports. Second the cost which would be around 35 Million for MK-1 with AESA, FBW, composite and F-404 engine, with Simulator, Trainer, and a carrier version. And the turbofan engine Kaveri is Indian developed with all IPR which have FADEEC certified, and taking into consideration of relatively cheaper labour cost in India, high number of build to lower down the cost would LCA tejas would provide a alternative of Gripen. Provided indegenous AESA MMR Uttam with 1000 T/R module, Astra MK-1/2 BVRAAM.

Lets talk about how Gripen NG excel -- Low maintainance, quick maintenance, short turn around (14 Minute), more fuel, more range.

What MK-2 would fulfill -- The revised ASQR of the IAF in 2009 asking for such capability because ADA didn't designed the LCA with such things in mind such as short turn around, short maintainance and engine change but would be fulfilled with the MK-2 version. Well nobody could expect an OEM to build Rafale straight away in its first development.

But what LCA fulfills IAF requirement which even Gripen fails -- Short take off with full load from the high altitude airfield of LEH, and second the self sufficiency and own IPR to change/modify the plane as per our own need and requirement.

As far as Kaveri is concerned don't worry because the Airforce IAF is too stringent about the quality, that's why they wanted FLAT Rated, smokeless turbo fan engine which would give the desired thrust in the Indian tropical conditions (P.S the thrust reduces to 10-12 percentage in such conditions), and nobody is going to induct the engine in haste.

I repeat again to everyone -- The only OEM that could help India/ADA/HAL for LCA Tejas is Dassault, and GE

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The Indian "Made in India" program is from my point of view in place due to limited capacity
of producing Tejas and the high price of Rafale.
Technical comparisions with Tejas is therefore maybe not in the decision criteria.

According to the MMRCA wiki entry, Gripen completed their tests in Leh,
while 4 out of the remaining 5 failed.

 

[zebra7]

According to the MMRCA wiki entry, Gripen completed their tests in Leh,
while 4 out of the remaining 5 failed.

All the contendors of the MMRCA fails the LEH test of take off with full load in the prescribed short distance.

The Indian "Made in India" program is from my point of view in place due to limited capacity
of producing Tejas and the high price of Rafale.

Wrong, for the high line to produce the optimal capacity would takes normally 2.5 years after SOP. The IAF earlier on gave only the order for mere 20 units of LCA MK-1 of IOC standard and another 20 of FOC standard and for mere 40 units the production could not be scaled to 16 unit per year. Now IAF have agreed for 100 unit of SOP 2018 standard which will includes the Israeli AESA EL/M-2052, Aerial refuel Probe, and Israeli jammer pod.

Technical comparisions with Tejas is therefore maybe not in the decision criteria.

Technical comparisions of Tejas with whom -- MIG-21 Bison ??

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

All the contendors of the MMRCA fails the LEH test of take off with full load in the prescribed short distance.

Wrong, for the high line to produce the optimal capacity would takes normally 2.5 years after SOP. The IAF earlier on gave only the order for mere 20 units of LCA MK-1 of IOC standard and another 20 of FOC standard and for mere 40 units the production could not be scaled to 16 unit per year. Now IAF have agreed for 100 unit of SOP 2018 standard which will includes the Israeli AESA EL/M-2052, Aerial refuel Probe, and Israeli jammer pod.

Technical comparisions of Tejas with whom -- MIG-21 Bison ??

Then You come up with an explanation for the Made in India initiative to bring in another type.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Then You come up with an explanation for the Made in India initiative to bring in another type.

We dont that at the moment. I could be just a production line for additional Rafales, it's all hear say. So is this news for Gripen.

 

[temporary12345]

Gripen is a good plane ,and in different circumstances, it would have been best fit for IAF; but since we already have LCA, it is very difficult to induct Gripen.

Today, LCA may be inferior plane compared to Gripen, but this LCA mk1 version is a limited edition plane with only 20 to be produced. It would be LCA mk1A (which would be about a Tonn lighter and would have major avionics upgrades including but not limited to AESA radar) which would be mass produced, and this plane is comparable to Gripens flying today. This plane would be ready by 2018 ,and Gripen do not bring any appreciable advantage over it.

Similarly LCA Mk2,planned to fly by 2023-24, is similar in capability as those projected for Gripen NG. On top of it, India has Fifth generation AMCA program too, for which a lot of technologies that would be required would be tested on LCA mk2.


This is the basic problem with India buying Gripen. It would kill LCA program. It is due to this reason why there are very bleak chance of India buying Gripen. Only way Gripen sale could happen is if India scrap LCA mk2 program and decide to buy Gripen NG instead (This could happen as it would allow India to diver its resources towards AMCA), but doing so would create its own problem. It would royally screw Indian Navy which is depending on N-LCA (Naval version of mk2), even though it has been most staunchest of LCA's supporters; Second, in case India goes to buy some plane by lowering production volume of LCA, F-16 would join the fray and I don't think that Sweden could compete with diplomatic muscle/blackmailing power of USA (Sweden ,anyway, does not look serious about its MIC business while USA is no stranger to arm-twist countries to buy US-MIC products) and LM could always deny sale of GE engines foe SAAB's Indian deal.

 

[Green Angel]

LCA is better than Gripen because it is....Made in India...

 

[zebra7]

Then You come up with an explanation for the Made in India initiative to bring in another type.

As far as SAAB is concerned it is feeling the heat and trying desperately to replace LCA mk-2 for IAF, because Indian Naval aviation is already commited with 40 units of LCA MK-2 for carrier operation.

Why Boeing, LM, SAAB, Dassault, BAE excited about the Make in India is due to the fact that the relatively cheaper labour, development of industrial capability, number of trained engineers and technicians availability in India is necessary to compete in the Global competition, and they all want to do the same, which Russia is doing for so many years with MKI, where not only Russia getting the order of the Sukhoi 30 MKI in good number 270+ but, the spares could be produced by HAL for the Asian and African market for Sukhoi customer, and MRO and upgrade facility in India, thus cutting the cost.

BAE and HAL came into the JV for the Combat Hawk similarly to co produce and market for the Global customer.

U.S wants India to produce F-18SH in India, and market it in the global market and make India a destination for the repair, overhaul, and MRO destination for F-18, and F-16.

Dassault would like India, for future upgrade investment, and production of Rafale for the Global customer with the production of Rafale in India with its pvt partner.

SAAB wants to open a unit in Maharastra and CM of this state is very excited, and is ready to transfer all technology to India and even offered to help India in its AMCA project -- but playing a dirty game of Propaganda, and Lifafa journalism tactics.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Gripen is a good plane ,and in different circumstances, it would have been best fit for IAF; but since we already have LCA, it is very difficult to induct Gripen.

Today, LCA may be inferior plane compared to Gripen, but this LCA mk1 version is a limited edition plane with only 20 to be produced. It would be LCA mk1A (which would be about a Tonn lighter and would have major avionics upgrades including but not limited to AESA radar) which would be mass produced, and this plane is comparable to Gripens flying today. This plane would be ready by 2018 ,and Gripen do not bring any appreciable advantage over it.

Similarly LCA Mk2,planned to fly by 2023-24, is similar in capability as those projected for Gripen NG. On top of it, India has Fifth generation AMCA program too, for which a lot of technologies that would be required would be tested on LCA mk2.


This is the basic problem with India buying Gripen. It would kill LCA program. It is due to this reason why there are very bleak chance of India buying Gripen. Only way Gripen sale could happen is if India scrap LCA mk2 program and decide to buy Gripen NG instead (This could happen as it would allow India to diver its resources towards AMCA), but doing so would create its own problem. It would royally screw Indian Navy which is depending on N-LCA (Naval version of mk2), even though it has been most staunchest of LCA's supporters; Second, in case India goes to buy some plane by lowering production volume of LCA, F-16 would join the fray and I don't think that Sweden could compete with diplomatic muscle/blackmailing power of USA (Sweden ,anyway, does not look serious about its MIC business while USA is no stranger to arm-twist countries to buy US-MIC products) and LM could always deny sale of GE engines foe SAAB's Indian deal.

Since the F414 is OK to buy for LCA, I doubt the U.S. would deny it.

As far as SAAB is concerned it is feeling the heat and trying desperately to replace LCA mk-2 for IAF, because Indian Naval aviation is already commited with 40 units of LCA MK-2 for carrier operation.

Why Boeing, LM, SAAB, Dassault, BAE excited about the Make in India is due to the fact that the relatively cheaper labour, development of industrial capability, number of trained engineers and technicians availability in India is necessary to compete in the Global competition, and they all want to do the same, which Russia is doing for so many years with MKI, where not only Russia getting the order of the Sukhoi 30 MKI in good number 270+ but, the spares could be produced by HAL for the Asian and African market for Sukhoi customer, and MRO and upgrade facility in India, thus cutting the cost.

BAE and HAL came into the JV for the Combat Hawk similarly to co produce and market for the Global customer.

U.S wants India to produce F-18SH in India, and market it in the global market and make India a destination for the repair, overhaul, and MRO destination for F-18, and F-16.

Dassault would like India, for future upgrade investment, and production of Rafale for the Global customer with the production of Rafale in India with its pvt partner.

SAAB wants to open a unit in Maharastra and CM of this state is very excited, and is ready to transfer all technology to India and even offered to help India in its AMCA project -- but playing a dirty game of Propaganda, and Lifafa journalism tactics.

There won't be a "Made in India" program, unless India buys the plane.
Both the F-16 and the F-18 are close to end of production without new orders.