Rajoana Hanging case,Punjab on alert,a curious case of Indian system

[Guest01]

Strange. Some are saying that if this assasin is hanged then insurgency will return to Punjab. So technically the law and order is actually so fickle that we will have to let the assasins go scot free just to ensure that there is no insurgency. My take is that hang the criminal. He committed a murder cold blooded and political. Why should he be treated different than any other murderer just because there is a background of khalistan somewhere. And if some are thinking that it will create a difference to the country then they are just getting cockey. Nothing else.

 

[deckingraj]

Hindus hate the congress more than the Sikhs.dont be funny.

Thats why BJP is in alliance with SAD.Hindus wont like vote for the opposite of Congress' votes,thats what the muslims do.understand that first.

I must say you have no clue to what you are talking about..b/w i am not claiming that hindus like/hate congress...Again understand first what am i saying and then reply....Anyhow as said let's not divert the topic...You want to talk about it open a new thread...I will be more then happy to discuss this with you...

 

[harpoon]

Rajoana is one of the worst terrorist (Sorry if Sikhs are offended by this term) this country has seen. He already killed a CM, now is holding the entire state of Punjab to ransom. He is a suicide bomber with no suicide jacket.

 

[Moorkh]

Here yourself again. What you are saying is pure idealistic talk. In the real world it doesn't happen. In the real world, you first besiege the police to lodge an FIR against themselves for their excesses. See how preposterous that sounds? This when the media and the govt has already declared the deceased as a terrorist or a collaborator. And even if you manage to lodge the FIR, you wont find any lawyer to defend you. And even if you do you wont find any witnesses. Punjab was a police state for a good 10 years remember? And even if your case is heard you will have to wait for countless rounds of the courts and meanwhile the police will make sure every relative of yours is threatened or worse tortured. And all this will continue for 20 years while the same policemen who killed your family will get medals for bravery.

So what would you do? Kill the cops or wait 20 years with no guarantee of justice even then?

Would takng the law into your own hands change things for the better? wont your relatives etc be targeted for being relatives of someone who killed policemen? wont it further perpetrate the cycle of violence against you and yours? while i can see the emotions forcing the hands against the policemen, it still isnt the right answer. You just proved the police right in their assertion that the victim and his family had violent backgrounds. the family will just suffer more.

i have to accept your point about filing an FIR with the police against the police (mostly because i dont know the exact procedure to follow in such cases). that is one probable area where we need to improve.

Really, all emotion? If it was all emotion, Punjab would have continued to burn for longer or emptied out of Sikhs. But it didnt. People chose to carry on with their lives, rebuilding it piece by piece. But incidents like these rake up old issues and scratch old wounds. And hence the flow of emotions.

you seem to be supporting my point here. getting emotional and making decisions based on those emotions is a bad idea. people decided that moving on was the best choice and hence we have peace in punjab. incidents like these dont rake up emotions. its political parties and the like that stir up emotions. i am sure that the sentence that the person was to be given the death penalty was passed several years ago and it is to be carried out now. did anyone start jumping up and down at that time? logically speaking, would it change your life at all if the person lives the rest of his life behind bars or is dead? It is only because organisations with vested interests decided to stir up emotions that this has become such an emotional issue for you at all.

and now driven by these emotions you are asking that the authority of the courts be undermined by the government at state or central level.

 

[deckingraj]

Strange. Some are saying that if this assasin is hanged then insurgency will return to Punjab. So technically the law and order is actually so fickle that we will have to let the assasins go scot free just to ensure that there is no insurgency. My take is that hang the criminal. He committed a murder cold blooded and political. Why should he be treated different than any other murderer just because there is a background of khalistan somewhere. And if some are thinking that it will create a difference to the country then they are just getting cockey. Nothing else.

Then your take is based on some half baked facts which you did not even bother to check...Points both in favor and against are right here on this thread...Give it a read first before commenting....

Rajoana is one of the worst terrorist (Sorry if Sikhs are offended by this term) this country has seen. He already killed a CM, now is holding the entire state of Punjab to ransom. He is a suicide bomber with no suicide jacket.

You are not sorry and these are just empty words...b/w Sikhs are not offended because you call him a terrorist...Sikhs are offended because you(your likes) call KPS Gill, Beant Singh, Tytlers and all those pigs as heroes...b/w this chap is not doing anything...He did not do anything on his part to invoke the kind of response he is getting from people...Anyhow you guys don't care...and that unfortunately is a fact!!

 

[Guest01]

Then your take is based on some half baked facts which you did not even bother to check...Points both in favor and against are right here on this thread...Give it a read first before commenting....



You are not sorry and these are just empty words...b/w Sikhs are not offended because you call him a terrorist...Sikhs are offended because you(your likes) call KPS Gill, Beant Singh, Tytlers and all those pigs as heroes...b/w this chap is not doing anything...He did not do anything on his part to invoke the kind of response he is getting from people...Anyhow you guys don't care...and that unfortunately is a fact!!

I have checked the facts. The facts are that this fellow is an assasin. He killed the erstwhile Chief Minister of Punjab. He was arrested and prosecuted. He does not deny anything. So now when the execution is nearing, this fellow is suddenly being projected as the saviour of Punjab and if he is assasinated then it is being threatened that insurgency will start again. Most actually want him to be off the hook claiming the riots and the inhumane killings of 1984. So what has his release got to do with 1984 victims or the insurgent feeling? Why are the topics being twisted and linked for no rhyme and reason?

Either everyone respects the justice system or just do not swear by it. But I personally do not have any patience for this whole charade that continues to arise periodically. Going by the average age of India, half the country had nothing to do with 1984. The fellows that you are pointing out could very well be tried in court for the crimes that they committed. My point is that we cannot continue revisiting 1984 every year or every such event and then start talking about our own way of accept this or else....

 

[Nalwa]

Either everyone respects the justice system or just do not swear by it. But I personally do not have any patience for this whole charade that continues to arise periodically. Going by the average age of India, half the country had nothing to do with 1984. The fellows that you are pointing out could very well be tried in court for the crimes that they committed. My point is that we cannot continue revisiting 1984 every year or every such event and then start talking about our own way of accept this or else....

You dont understand, do you? People have long memories. Especially those who have seen periodic cycles of violence. 84 will be brought up every time a case like Rajoana's comes up. As there was no justice in the original riots cases, something like Beant's killing, the cause of which can be traced back to the riots, will continue to be big issues.

Would takng the law into your own hands change things for the better? wont your relatives etc be targeted for being relatives of someone who killed policemen? wont it further perpetrate the cycle of violence against you and yours? while i can see the emotions forcing the hands against the policemen, it still isnt the right answer. You just proved the police right in their assertion that the victim and his family had violent backgrounds. the family will just suffer more.

i have to accept your point about filing an FIR with the police against the police (mostly because i dont know the exact procedure to follow in such cases). that is one probable area where we need to improve.



you seem to be supporting my point here. getting emotional and making decisions based on those emotions is a bad idea. people decided that moving on was the best choice and hence we have peace in punjab. incidents like these dont rake up emotions. its political parties and the like that stir up emotions. i am sure that the sentence that the person was to be given the death penalty was passed several years ago and it is to be carried out now. did anyone start jumping up and down at that time? logically speaking, would it change your life at all if the person lives the rest of his life behind bars or is dead? It is only because organisations with vested interests decided to stir up emotions that this has become such an emotional issue for you at all.

and now driven by these emotions you are asking that the authority of the courts be undermined by the government at state or central level.

I think we will go round and round with this. The issues we diverge on are simple - I believe its justified to pick up a weapon, even if its against the state if you have been wronged. And you think one must be rational, and think about the repercussions and spend your life waiting for justice to be delivered. I believe my opinion stems from very close experiences while yours are idealistic in nature.

 

[Guest01]

You dont understand, do you? People have long memories. Especially those who have seen periodic cycles of violence. 84 will be brought up every time a case like Rajoana's comes up. As there was no justice in the original riots cases, something like Beant's killing, the cause of which can be traced back to the riots, will continue to be big issues.

It is good to have long memories. Never forget a mistake else one commits it again. Specially important in the case of a nation. That said, how is Rajoana the saviour of the people who were inhumanely murdered in 1984 or of their families who are languishing without justice to this day?

Why shoul we continue to allow the emotions of our suffering to become a tool of these politicians who continue with this charade? The same Akali Dal who claims to represent these victims was in power along with BJP at center. Why were the courts not pushed to bring to justice Tytler and other goons? Why should that long memory rise only when an assasin is being sent to gallows? What was done is done. Wish 1984 and also the years of insurgency before it had not happened. I wish that a place as sacroscant as the Golden Temple was first not used by the terrorists and then not stormed by the security forces. But all this wishing does nothing. What was done is done! However, I take strong exception to this whole talk of "do not hang this assassin or else...." It is ludicrous and an insult to this country to suggest that the unity of this country is actually hinging on the clemency to one assassin. The presence of this unity is actually worse than its absence. Because there will be always assassins and this blackmail of the legal system needs to stop. There can be no room for this "or else..."

 

[harpoon]

You are not sorry and these are just empty words...b/w Sikhs are not offended because you call him a terrorist...Sikhs are offended because you(your likes) call KPS Gill, Beant Singh, Tytlers and all those pigs as heroes...b/w this chap is not doing anything...He did not do anything on his part to invoke the kind of response he is getting from people...Anyhow you guys don't care...and that unfortunately is a fact!!

How can you say that? In this entire discussion , no one ever justified 1984 but you continue to play this 'you don't care' card. I haven't voted for Congress in my entire life bcs I consider them wrong on a lot of issues including 1984. I feels like vomiting when ever Congress leaders talks about Secularism and all this while Punjab selects them again and again. So pls I do care. Every death is a tragedy, but that doesn't mean that the challenge to territorial integrity of the Union of India including Khalistan Movement will go unchecked. Beant Singh & KPS Gill did whatever they seemed it was necessary to crush this movement. One is dead and if you think that the other is guilty of HR violations pls drag him to court.Whats stopping you?

Also I think its up to the youth of Punjab to decide whether they want to return to the dark days of 1980s or work together for a better future.

 

[Bang Galore]

That is the problem of you guys...Don't know much about the topic and not even interested in learning from the people on ground...This guy was a police officer and in fact a victim of terrorism yet he chose to do what he did.....Does this ring a bell...To me it did...Beant Singh and KPS Gill have killed scores of innocents...You people will chose to ignore it because who cares...Terrorism in punjab was controlled and scum bags like Beant Singh and KPS gill are your heores..However it is hard for the people to ignore who faced it...So this man who actually was a victim of terrorism chose to take proceeding in his own hands...Noe people like you will give 100 reasons as to why he should be hanged...and another 100 to justify why beant singh did what he did...no??

This is getting kind of silly. Just because you have an opinion & a particularly strong opinion at that, it doesn't make you the sole repository of wisdom. I have a different opinion (as you have no doubt noticed) & I am entitled to it. KPS gill is more a hero than this hero of yours, a man who still swears by an ideology that resulted in all those deaths. The fact that you can't seem to appreciate that is not my problem. The guy was a police officer. There is no proof that he was traumatised by the other deaths in Punjab, only what he himself has claimed as a Khalistani supporter.I have no interest in his death beyond the fact that is what is mandated by law. I would have been equally at peace if he was sentenced to imprisonment. His fate is not my concern, the deliberate undermining of the Indian state is.

Then just say good bye to all those fuc!ing human rights that this fck1ing consitution has given us...This is an epic fail of your argument...The way you are justfying state acts the same way actions of those who are victims to state terror should be justified...why is that not the case here...Point is simple..HUman rights violations should not be ignored...I must say what a moronic reply was that...

You know, a guy ranting like you should not be lecturing others, You can debate or choose not to. If you want to indulge in mindless abuse, I'm not your man. Pick someone else, I'm sure they will oblige you with similar stuff.

The same old story of proofs...On one hand you say that insurgencies cannot be won without being harsh and then on the other hand you question where are the proofs that he was involved?? We have chosen MMS as PM, does that mean MMS has the license to kill people??? What kind of idiotic argument is that???

You want to condemn Beant singh as a murderer & therefore deserving of killing & yet you came up with nothing as proof but you defend a man convicted in courts. Rich, i say!

As said again this i a people movement...The guy himself is disowning political parties...Not sure from where you have learned this stupid vested interests syndrome and are harping again and again on it...I have already given you reasons for it..and yes there is for sure a legitimate fear that Punjab will burn...but then who cares...Your house is pretty safe..right!!!

The guy disowned the Indian state, what's so great that he disowned political parties? This man has shown no remorse & does not come as a fit case for commutation. We can agree to differ about the possible impact of his execution but kindly refrain from insinuating that I do not care
imply because as you put it, "my house is safe". If that is the extent of your argument, I'm afraid there is nothing more that needs to be said.

 

[Punjabbi Munda]

Its a pretty complex case,i was quite young when the killing of Beant Singh happened,did Balwant Singh kill him or he was there as an alternative if the initial attempt failed?

 

[Prometheus]

This is getting kind of silly. Just because you have an opinion & a particularly strong opinion at that, it doesn't make you the sole repository of wisdom. I have a different opinion (as you have no doubt noticed) & I am entitled to it. KPS gill is more a hero than this hero of yours, a man who still swears by an ideology that resulted in all those deaths. The fact that you can't seem to appreciate that is not my problem. The guy was a police officer. There is no proof that he was traumatised by the other deaths in Punjab, only what he himself has claimed as a Khalistani supporter.I have no interest in his death beyond the fact that is what is mandated by law. I would have been equally at peace if he was sentenced to imprisonment. His fate is not my concern, the deliberate undermining of the Indian state is.






You know, a guy ranting like you should not be lecturing others, You can debate or choose not to. If you want to indulge in mindless abuse, I'm not your man. Pick someone else, I'm sure they will oblige you with similar stuff.




You want to condemn Beant singh as a murderer & therefore deserving of killing & yet you came up with nothing as proof but you defend a man convicted in courts. Rich, i say!




The guy disowned the Indian state, what's so great that he disowned political parties? This man has shown no remorse & does not come as a fit case for commutation. We can agree to differ about the possible impact of his execution but kindly refrain from insinuating that I do not care
imply because as you put it, "my house is safe". If that is the extent of your argument, I'm afraid there is nothing more that needs to be said.

Just some questions ....
Will sikhs ever get justice ?????
For how long sikhs should wait????
Should the sikhs forget it????
How will India react If Amitabh Bachhan goes to jail in roit case????
Why were Sikhs killed in the capital of their own country for which they faught since their birth????
Did Indian people forgot the sacrifices made by sikhs in the indepandance , in the wars , when they elected Congress govt with a huge majority rite after the riots???

 

[Guest01]

I know you wrote to our other friend, but I want to add my answers to these questions.

Just some questions ....
Will sikhs ever get justice ????? Come to the street for the justice and see how many join you. I want to come and join to see that the perpetators of the heinous 1984 opportunistic crimes are brought to the justice.
For how long sikhs should wait???? Should not wait even one more minute. Too much wait already. Come to the streets to get the justice for the 1984 victims.
Should the sikhs forget it???? No. Never. Not just the Sikhs. This country should not forget 1984 or Godhra or any other communal nature of riots.
How will India react If Amitabh Bachhan goes to jail in roit case???? Honestly if he commits to a riot, he should go to jail for all I care.
Why were Sikhs killed in the capital of their own country for which they faught since their birth???? Shameful and painful. Should not have happended. It was injustice. Indira was good for the country because of 1971 decisions but she was not worth the riot and the carnage against the Sikhs.
Did Indian people forgot the sacrifices made by sikhs in the indepandance , in the wars , when they elected Congress govt with a huge majority rite after the riots??? Very good question. Poignant too. I have not known a single person who does not regard the sacrifices of all communities in the wars and the independence. But I come from Army family so cannot say about others. But if you are weighing it with the votes, my uncle tells me that the pro congress vote was becasue of the defeat of the Pakistani designs and Khalistan. Unfortunately this nation never mourned the 1984 Sikhs. Should have mourned. Should be mourned. It is a must to bring relief to the anguished.

 

[Bang Galore]

Just some questions ....
Will sikhs ever get justice ?????
For how long sikhs should wait????
Should the sikhs forget it????
How will India react If Amitabh Bachhan goes to jail in roit case????
Why were Sikhs killed in the capital of their own country for which they faught since their birth????
Did Indian people forgot the sacrifices made by sikhs in the indepandance , in the wars , when they elected Congress govt with a huge majority rite after the riots???

I actually see that Guest01 has already done a good job of answering your questions. However i fail to understand what exactly is your point? No one here condones the 1984 riots or believes that justice was done. That however is a separate issue and the logical corollary to those raking it up in this context is whether a commutation of sentence in this case would mean that Sikhs (And all other Indians) will forget about the 1984 riots? Can't have it both ways; first say that this man must be freed/sentence commuted because justice has not been done in he 1984 riots & then turn around & still ask for justice in the 1984 riots. Either your stand has to be on a firm footing or you give up claims along with your demands.

My position has been straightforward, I support the rule of the law, whether it is for those involved in the 1984 riots or those terrorists who have been found guilty of terrorism. I have, in my posts condemned those Hindu groups who are involved in terrorism, condemned Muslim groups who are involved similarly, have held both the congress government of 1984 & the BJP government in Gujarat in 2002 responsible for what transpired there I believe that is a fairly consistent line that I have taken. You may not like my position but you will never be able to find a single post where I have said differently from what I say here.

Funny that you didn't ask why the Sikhs of Punjab voted in a Congress government whose Chief minister some claim now to be involved in killing ( no proof provided of course). Don't turn this into Sikhs versus the rest .All Indians felt the pain of what happened in Punjab in those days which is why you see almost mo sign of any tension between Sikhs & others anywhere in India. Granted that the pain will be felt the most by those who were directly involved, not necessarily fair to equate that with this case. Unfortunately as happened with the Sri Lanka issue, this seems to be an easy, cynical way out.

 

[scrumpy]

Is this a good time to point out he hypocrisy of people here when Afzal Guru's hanging is discussed?

Law and Order cannot be held hostage to the petty politics of appeasement.