Rajoana Hanging case,Punjab on alert,a curious case of Indian system

[Prometheus]

I disagree...it wasn't state terrorism because it was not a unilateral show of violence. What happened in Punjab is not black and white to just blame any one group squarely..its in shades of grey with each side having culpability in it. Let's not forget that.



So because of that fear can we just stop punishing all criminals ?

I stand with every Sikh in demanding that culprits who indulged in 84 riots be punished..I even feel that he (Rajaona) be granted life sentence if the Sikhs feel strongly about it.

But saying he will be treated as a sant and that the neighbour will utilize it is like you yourself questioning the patriotism of Sikhs..


I feel the numbers are bloated. Even if they are true..as I said blame rests with both sides and it must be acknowledged as such.

First point - regarding unilataral show of violance......ahem ahem 1984 delhi ahem ahem ......haryana ahem ahem ahem Uttar pradesh .

Second point - black and white- I refered the period of insurgency in Punjab as dark period of Punjab because of the lawlessness, rule of the guns , senseless blood shed.

Now the main point about growth of extremism in sikh youth of Punjab...................My childhood went under the guns , so know that horreble time of militancy but the ones who were born after mid 90's dont know it........what they are listening is 1984 genocide of sikhs and no one is punished , Operation blue star etc. And for info.....officially there are over 45 lakh unemployed in Punjab and drugs culture is very high now a days........cautions need to be taken.

About Rajoana being made a saint........Oh my Kartik dear , he is already being declared a Living Martyr by Akal Thakt ......so practically a saint.

Sometimes I feel extremism is growing very fast in sikhism , Thats bad very bad.

About patronism.........take a hike .......wake up.........what are u talking about????...........I am talking to some senseless nationalist here

 

[Nalwa]

And I suppose the correct way to get justice for all those on the opposite side is to kill a lot of chaps on this side & claim that very same ground as an argument.

Bang Galore, Beant's family has come out and said they do not hold any grudges against him. His own grandson (once involved in the alleged rape of a foreign national) recently won as an MLA and toes the party line.

I am simply saying you cannot apply the same yardstick here. When you couldn't hold the law when it suited the state, why do you hold it when it doesnt suit you?

 

[Subramanian]

Dude let's not divert the topic...I have the explanation but it will be long and off topic...However just on a small level it has more to do with BJP confusion to get over the communal party tag and become a secular party vs to keep the tag like that...Having said that i agree that Indian voters have also matured...


Again BJP emergence as a national party and the time-frames involved are point of scrutiny before we conclude what you are saying...Also keep in mind...After 84 Congress won with majority that no one has been able to match...Similarly we have an example in Gujrat...Gives an impression that there is still communal mindset there...

Anyhow let's not discuss it any further as we will end up going Off Topic...

1984 Punjab and delhi & 2001 Gujarat are like Chalk and Cheese,seriously figure it out on your own.

Perhaps because it didn't happen with your family member !

The system was mocked the day the state decided to take up extra judicial methods.

Kashmir, NE, Naxals do deserve a political rather than a military solution.

Kashmir & NE yes,not the Naxals.

 

[Moorkh]

Well all things said and done, the Rajoana case shows that there are still festering wounds on the Sikh psychic, directly or indirectly caused by the events of the last 30 years. It again points to fault-lines in our democracy. Sometimes the state forgets its own principles and its tough to differentiate between the state and the criminal. You might say the Sikhs are unpatriotic or you may say they are the most patriotic, but wrongs were committed by the state, excesses were carried out and rights were tramples upon.

This may not be evident from the relative prosperity of Punjab, but deep within many Sikh youth hold grudges. They might simply be busy with carrying on with the business of life but scratch the surface and emotions will burst out. Almost everybody who saw the 80s knows a budding student, a bright scholar or a family member or a neighbor who picked up a gun and ended up in an encounter. Or another who was picked up late by the police, never to be seen again. And indirect result is the continued unabated migration of Jatt Sikhs, the backbone of Punjab. Stemming from a relative mistrust of the sate, a sense of alienation and of course stories of the better life abroad, the Jatt youth at some level do not trust they will find reasonable employment in India. And about 99% of Sikhs abroad share feelings that could be describes as unpatriotic. And these people are closely linked with their brethren back home. So what they feel and express is bound to impact what Sikhs in India feel.

I only hope the govt./state/people in power can learn from their mistakes and avoid such a turn of events in the future. Punjab was irreversibly changed in the 80s, hope the same doesn't happen for any other state or community.

I wasnt born when the situation in punjab was at a boil so i wont argue over what was done by the state or not.

if the state did something wrong, it should be punished for it. no arguments there. however that does not excuse others who did something wrong either. unlawful activities dont become acceptable because someone else was breaking the law too. if you want to punish KPS Gill for his wrong doings take the matter to the courts.

In this case the perpetrator was found guilty and the courts have decided on his punishment. immaterial of whether it was due to revenge or to make a political point, killing people is illegal in india and is punishable. we can not and should not dilute the law because some think highly of a criminal.

indian courts might be slow but please dont try to undermine their authority by asking for such changes in their decisions. That way leads to anarchy.

 

[livingdead]

Perhaps because it didn't happen with your family member !

The system was mocked the day the state decided to take up extra judicial methods.

Kashmir, NE, Naxals do deserve a political rather than a military solution.

I am not talking about my action ( his action in this case) which could be in reaction to wrongdoings by state or others.
I am talking about the response of society/state in form of rule of law, which should be same if I had done something wrong.

To make it clearer, yes I might have done it wrong, and it will be okey to punish me (no matter how passionately I belive I am right)

 

[Nalwa]

what do u see as the solution,paaji?

IMO,we have long moved on and the only problem now is the Canaddawale Jattan,many of them who have not seen partition,who dont know the background of the Doaba and the current realities,still living in the world of late 19th century fuelling hatred all the time.Dont you think that also has something to do with this pent up emotions under the surface?

You have moved on. I haven't. My family hasn't. My friends haven't. You know why? There's no closure. And that's because there's no justice.

And most NRI Sikhs are recent immigrants. They know what happened in the 80s.

See its all about balance. The Sikhs heavily suffered in the riots, so they sought to balance it via militancy and targeted killing. That again brought on the state machinery against them and they had to suffer again. There was an uneasy calm and sort of an equilibrium in the 90s and the last 20 years. But events like these upset the balance again.

You know what would have nipped all of this in the bud? If there had been adequate measures from the state to prosecute the people responsible for the riots. Instead they are Congress candidates! What message does that give to the impressionable Sikh youth? Of course you can blame the judiciary and the Sikhs themselves for being violent prone, but if the state had gone after the perpetrators instead of supporting them, things would have turned so bad.

 

[Moorkh]

Context is the key word here. You do not prosecute anybody for police excesses or the 84 riots, then somebody is bound to take the law into their own hands. Nows the chance to make up for it in some way by releasing him.

you dont make up for unlwaful actions with more unlawful actions.
the police excesses should be prosecuted however that still does not mean that someone else who broke the law should be excused. at the end of the day he comitted a crime.

 

[deckingraj]

Balls,

You have no clue man.Why ll Hindus cote for the Congress?Hindus and Sikhs are not polarized at all,by the way.

...Do u even get what i am saying??? As per you what was the reason for massacre of Sikhs after IG killing??? Sikhs uniting against the Congress for the same cause is a fodder for orthodox hindus to vote for congress....Not polarized at all...this is overstatement by all means...Anyhow as said earlier let's not get diverted...

 

[Nalwa]

I wasnt born when the situation in punjab was at a boil so i wont argue over what was done by the state or not.

if the state did something wrong, it should be punished for it. no arguments there. however that does not excuse others who did something wrong either. unlawful activities dont become acceptable because someone else was breaking the law too. if you want to punish KPS Gill for his wrong doings take the matter to the courts.

In this case the perpetrator was found guilty and the courts have decided on his punishment. immaterial of whether it was due to revenge or to make a political point, killing people is illegal in india and is punishable. we can not and should not dilute the law because some think highly of a criminal.

indian courts might be slow but please dont try to undermine their authority by asking for such changes in their decisions. That way leads to anarchy.

But the fact is that the state or its reps are never punished. Or if they ever are, there's a heavy imbalance. Like 1000s killed in riots and 9 cops penalized. Do you expect anybody to accept that as justice? And the judiciary is seen as an extension of the state isn't it? The state has to exercise it influence (not for the first time, I am sure) and get his sentence commuted.

 

[Moorkh]

Perhaps because it didn't happen with your family member !

The system was mocked the day the state decided to take up extra judicial methods.

Kashmir, NE, Naxals do deserve a political rather than a military solution.

that sentence points to the fact that emotions and not logic are at work. not a good sign. emotional thinking never lead to a good decision

Bang Galore, Beant's family has come out and said they do not hold any grudges against him. His own grandson (once involved in the alleged rape of a foreign national) recently won as an MLA and toes the party line.

I am simply saying you cannot apply the same yardstick here. When you couldn't hold the law when it suited the state, why do you hold it when it doesnt suit you?

law and order does not have to do with satisfying the offended party's sense of revenge. it has to do with ensuring that activitties seen as anti-social are punished.

the views of beant's family dont matter. its a matter of a criminal killing someone and getting punished for it.

 

[Nalwa]

you dont make up for unlwaful actions with more unlawful actions.
the police excesses should be prosecuted however that still does not mean that someone else who broke the law should be excused. at the end of the day he comitted a crime.

Here yourself again. What you are saying is pure idealistic talk. In the real world it doesn't happen. In the real world, you first besiege the police to lodge an FIR against themselves for their excesses. See how preposterous that sounds? This when the media and the govt has already declared the deceased as a terrorist or a collaborator. And even if you manage to lodge the FIR, you wont find any lawyer to defend you. And even if you do you wont find any witnesses. Punjab was a police state for a good 10 years remember? And even if your case is heard you will have to wait for countless rounds of the courts and meanwhile the police will make sure every relative of yours is threatened or worse tortured. And all this will continue for 20 years while the same policemen who killed your family will get medals for bravery.

So what would you do? Kill the cops or wait 20 years with no guarantee of justice even then?

that sentence points to the fact that emotions and not logic are at work. not a good sign. emotional thinking never lead to a good decision



law and order does not have to do with satisfying the offended party's sense of revenge. it has to do with ensuring that activitties seen as anti-social are punished.

the views of beant's family dont matter. its a matter of a criminal killing someone and getting punished for it.

Really, all emotion? If it was all emotion, Punjab would have continued to burn for longer or emptied out of Sikhs. But it didnt. People chose to carry on with their lives, rebuilding it piece by piece. But incidents like these rake up old issues and scratch old wounds. And hence the flow of emotions.

 

[Subramanian]

You have moved on. I haven't. My family hasn't. My friends haven't. You know why? There's no closure. And that's because there's no justice.

And most NRI Sikhs are recent immigrants. They know what happened in the 80s.

See its all about balance. The Sikhs heavily suffered in the riots, so they sought to balance it via militancy and targeted killing. That again brought on the state machinery against them and they had to suffer again. There was an uneasy calm and sort of an equilibrium in the 90s and the last 20 years. But events like these upset the balance again.

You know what would have nipped all of this in the bud? If there had been adequate measures from the state to prosecute the people responsible for the riots. Instead they are Congress candidates! What message does that give to the impressionable Sikh youth? Of course you can blame the judiciary and the Sikhs themselves for being violent prone, but if the state had gone after the perpetrators instead of supporting them, things would have turned so bad.

Please dont include me in this,my fiancee is Jatt-Sehjdhaari sikh and pretty much a hindu in other terms but nonetheless i used to ask her dad about this and this is what he told me:

He told me that what the congress did meant so much harm for all of them. He said that he stopped meeting sikh friends of his because they abused hinduism so much as an outlet of their anger and they saw Indra and Rajiv as Hindu Brahmins and not the pseudo secular marxist oppurtunists as they were and it created a big wedge between them,which is sad because the same family has hindus,sehjdaari sikhs and amrit dhaari sikhs not to include some jaats/aroras/khatris boys and girls married to the family.

he said when he went to a gurudwara in canada he got bad verbal abuse from jattan there.he said taking such abuse from people who have never seen partition and migrated to Canada in the early 19th century are calling him an enemy of the Sikhs.He was literally crying when he said this.

Seeing such a society torn apart as a result of politicians( indra and bhindranwale and akalis) is shocking and sad.

I agree with you,the issue was the riots.The riots started the whole problem and Rajiv's irresponsible comments on it.

I fully concur,i hate the congress through every single vein of my body and thats why i still find it shocking that the party still exists in Punjab and all of us Hindus(almost) who would never want things to carry on like this end up being blamed for it.

 

[Moorkh]

But the fact is that the state or its reps are never punished

Its not in the constitution that the state 'reps' cant be punished. They are punished when they are found guilty. Unless they can be proven so in the courts such arguments stand null and void.

Or if they ever are, there's a heavy imbalance. Like 1000s killed in riots and 9 cops penalized.

justice isnt about matching numbers. If an idiot killed 20 people, does justice demand that the idiot and 19 others be killed to balance the scales? justice is about punishing the ones proven guilty of wrongdoing. maybe the 9 cops did not kill the 1000s by themselves. but until the time the other acomplices are brought to court and proven guilty, its just those 9 cops who get punished.

And the judiciary is seen as an extension of the state isn't it? The state has to exercise it influence (not for the first time, I am sure) and get him pardoned.

judiciary isnt an extension of the state in a manner of speaking. it sits independent of the legislative and executive and has the right to pass judgement on the other two. one of the basic concepts of our constitution is that the government is not allowed to ignore or overturn the judgement of the judiciary. the best the government can do is fight a case in the courts. it cant tell the courts to overturn or change judgements.

 

[deckingraj]

This chap was a police officer, not some poor innocent boy getting the rough end of the stick. His act was a in support of the Khalistan movement & not as suggested an act in support of those who died in the violence. He accepted guilt & has shown no remorse, what there do you think warrants a commutation?

That is the problem of you guys...Don't know much about the topic and not even interested in learning from the people on ground...This guy was a police officer and in fact a victim of terrorism yet he chose to do what he did.....Does this ring a bell...To me it did...Beant Singh and KPS Gill have killed scores of innocents...You people will chose to ignore it because who cares...Terrorism in punjab was controlled and scum bags like Beant Singh and KPS gill are your heores..However it is hard for the people to ignore who faced it...So this man who actually was a victim of terrorism chose to take proceeding in his own hands...Noe people like you will give 100 reasons as to why he should be hanged...and another 100 to justify why beant singh did what he did...no??

Insurgencies are bloody business, no insurgency is won without ruthlessness. These kind of pipe dreams happen nowhere, if one were to go by your argument, we might as well kiss all troubled areas goodbye. No one has ever defeated insurgencies anywhere without being harsh at times. Your argument that other crimes have not been punished can never be accepted as an excuse for these terrorist attacks.

Then just say good bye to all those fuc!ing human rights that this fck1ing consitution has given us...This is an epic fail of your argument...The way you are justfying state acts the same way actions of those who are victims to state terror should be justified...why is that not the case here...Point is simple..HUman rights violations should not be ignored...I must say what a moronic reply was that...

Beant Singh was elected by the people of Punjab, no such claim can be made of the scum who killed him. No cases have ever been made, no charges proved that directly implicate an assassinated elected chief minister. Bit like blaming MMS for all the killings that happen by security forces anywhere in India. Just because the murderers during the partition got away, can the same be used as an excuse for a Hindu killing Muslims or Muslims killing hindus?

The same old story of proofs...On one hand you say that insurgencies cannot be won without being harsh and then on the other hand you question where are the proofs that he was involved?? We have chosen MMS as PM, does that mean MMS has the license to kill people??? What kind of idiotic argument is that???

This guy is worth not in the least of a commutation, I don't buy this manufactured argument that Punjab will burn etc. If the guy wants a pardon, let him ask for it & we will see where it goes. Politicians & other vested interests don't impress me much with their hollow threats. Stupid in my view, since all you are doing is encouraging people to take up acts of terrorism since you can always use this self serving argument in your defence.

As said again this i a people movement...The guy himself is disowning political parties...Not sure from where you have learned this stupid vested interests syndrome and are harping again and again on it...I have already given you reasons for it..and yes there is for sure a legitimate fear that Punjab will burn...but then who cares...Your house is pretty safe..right!!!

 

[Subramanian]

...Do u even get what i am saying??? As per you what was the reason for massacre of Sikhs after IG killing??? Sikhs uniting against the Congress for the same cause is a fodder for orthodox hindus to vote for congress....Not polarized at all...this is overstatement by all means...Anyhow as said earlier let's not get diverted...

Hindus hate the congress more than the Sikhs.dont be funny.

Thats why BJP is in alliance with SAD.Hindus wont like vote for the opposite of Congress' votes,thats what the muslims do.understand that first.